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Dev Blog: Shake my Citadel

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corebloodbrothers
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#161 - 2015-05-12 18:24:01 UTC  |  Edited by: corebloodbrothers
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Quote:
Structures won't be able to shoot without someone manning the guns. As CCP Nullarbor mentioned, we have options under our sleeves to mitigate the risk from this change. Like having a reduced vulnerability window in specific areas, and / or be able to have NPCs spawn.


This is a bit of a slippery slope eh? I know you want individuals to feel that they can use the medium structures, but relying on NPC pirates to provide defense is... questionable on a number of levels.

No offense intended.


You would not rely in NPC defense at all, it would be a mild deterrent against a lone ship at best, the point is to show up for your timers and defend.

As I mentioned the balance will be how frequently this happens so that it's not a chore, but still provides opportunities for an interesting engagement.



This one ccp nullabor mentions now is also being discussed by the csm. Its good ccp nullabor is open about the intention behind no pos or structure guns firing with no player active in control off them. Cause its a major change from current mechanisms. If u add the possibility too it from the structures then u can see a attack with hundreds of timers generated in 1 evening. Being it ton of structurs hit, systems hit with the link spawns to defend, and a buttload of reffed station services. Cause all these attacks have been removed from ehp grind, u can generate a insane amount of timers, which isnt possible under the current system.

Like nullabor said the trolling element is being watched and considered, however the mass storm of a attacker,blitzing a region, and the next hulkageddon being a posgeddon is one the csm is very much in discussion with CCP , and raises once more the debate, why be in null, why own sov. Only to lose it. Personally as a player and a csm i hope a fase 3 would follow the structures and the sov remoddeling. One where owning sov actually benenfits in a way thats both rewarding isk wise, but even more so fofilling deeper drivers. A model where buidable sov and upgrades are earned and can be applied by sovowners too give more sense of ownership would be for me personally, the way forward.
Ijesz ToKolok
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#162 - 2015-05-12 18:27:23 UTC
Quote:
Structures having a solar system wide-effect or otherwise impacting some kind of area will be publicly visible in space and in the overview


Are Citadels such structures?

Quote:
We are also thinking of having them visible and directly warpable from the on-board scanner to preserve Wormhole space gameplay.


I don't think wormhole space gameplay requires such towers to be warpable. WH folks, is it important?
Dradis Aulmais
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#163 - 2015-05-12 18:28:00 UTC
Will each empire have its own version? or will this be a one type to begin with and lets see if it works thing

Dradis Aulmais, Federal Attorney Number 54896

Free The Scope Three
Takeo Yanumano
Doomheim
#164 - 2015-05-12 18:31:08 UTC
Ijesz ToKolok wrote:
Quote:
Structures having a solar system wide-effect or otherwise impacting some kind of area will be publicly visible in space and in the overview


Are Citadels such structures?

Quote:
We are also thinking of having them visible and directly warpable from the on-board scanner to preserve Wormhole space gameplay.


I don't think wormhole space gameplay requires such towers to be warpable. WH folks, is it important?



Depends. Since wh-ers depend on POS being moon-bound as an important aspect of defense and intel-gathering currently, it would follow that having some way to find the citadel is needed. However, having it directly warpable from the on-board scanner makes that intel basically free, which is contrary to wh principles of skillful utilization of d-scan.
Scott Ormands
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#165 - 2015-05-12 18:31:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Scott Ormands
Ijesz ToKolok wrote:


Quote:
We are also thinking of having them visible and directly warpable from the on-board scanner to preserve Wormhole space gameplay.


I don't think wormhole space gameplay requires such towers to be warpable. WH folks, is it important?


I'm not psyched about HK QEX and LZHKs or anyone really jumping into my system and INSTANTLY knowing where I am and being able to warp there but they definitely should be scout able and warpable with some effort commensurate to D-scanning them down to a certain accuracy.
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#166 - 2015-05-12 18:31:22 UTC
Ijesz ToKolok wrote:
Quote:
Structures having a solar system wide-effect or otherwise impacting some kind of area will be publicly visible in space and in the overview


Are Citadels such structures?

Quote:
We are also thinking of having them visible and directly warpable from the on-board scanner to preserve Wormhole space gameplay.


I don't think wormhole space gameplay requires such towers to be warpable. WH folks, is it important?


Warpable from the overview? Maybe not
Discoverable and warpable to without launching probes? Yes, 100%
Alundil
Rolled Out
#167 - 2015-05-12 18:32:17 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Scott Ormands wrote:
few questions.

1. Larges; if we cant dock caps in them then how will we keep them in WH space especially since it seems that XL's are going to replace stations and hence wont really be allowed in HW's, plus they are supposed to be very expensive.

2. Vulnerability window; how will that work in WH space where we cant claim SOV to boost our indicies to reduce our vulberability timer.

3. Will the office, cloning, and market functions work in WH space.

4. How will these structures accommodate or replace the current practice in WH's to have Squad POS's with members of each POS having a specific corp hanger division assigned to them and their alts.

EX. 10 members are living in a WH, each with multiple alts, there are two towers with 5 members assigned to each with secret passwords to restrict access to those assigned. In tower 1 Scott is assigned division 5 and the other members are assigned the remainder. Scott has 4 alts and each of them have the same hanger division assigned allowing for easy consolidation of modules and items such as PI and minerals/Ore. Will this functionality be preserved?

5. How will ship storage be maintained, will it be similar to the current SMA mechanics or will it be more like stations with hangers divided restricted to each character. Maybe a combination of each allow you the option to set up shared hangers?

Thanks



  1. You would still have the invulnerability link, but yes, you are right, that's one of the arguments in favor to allow capitals in the Large Citadels.

  2. What we are thinking so far is to have high-sec and W-space have higher indices that null-sec by default. So they will be naturally less vulnerable there. We are also thinking about modules, rigs and gameplay options to affect the vulnerability window, but at a price.

  3. It depends on which kind of gameplay we want to have in W-space. So far, office and market functions look fine, cloning does not. Again, not set in stone at this point.

  4. Sounds so complicated. How about we give you guys personal hangers instead, just like in NPC stations / outposts? And then, if you don't want people to dock in a specific structure you can set restrictions to do so.

  5. See above P

1. This would definitely need to be the case in order for wspace. Leaving capital ships floating, or almost as bad forcing pilots to log off in the capital ship is a non-starter given that this won't be the case is all other capital ship capable space (00 / low / and I'd imagine high with regards to freighters, jump freighters and Rorquals).

2. Would need more detail on how this might play out. But the lack of any automated defense system, even one as bad as the current, is not a good thing for wpsace. Player counts are very limited compared to others areas where structure attack/defense happens. This makes TZ coverage very challenging.

3. I'd be inclined to swap markets and cloning in your statement. I can't think of many reasons why clone swapping (not jumping) would be a negative in wspace. It opens up multiple new combat opportunities. As for the market, I honestly don't see anyone setting up a market in wspace for business outside of their corp/alliance and logistics in wspace really doesn't lend itself well to mass shipping of goods or even mass manufacture of anything other than T1 hulls and mods and T3 hulls and subs. T1 hulls aren't used very much in the scheme of things in wspace PvP and T3 hulls don't exploded frequently enough in all space to need a "market" in a wspace system to sell them form. Imo

4. Personal Hangars for items and ships wouldn't be bad at all. That said, one of the only benefits of currently wspace sieges, aside from the removal of an opponent, is the potential for looting the structures. I'm concerned that the plan as stated "...assets would be safe/saved via methods tbd..." (paraphrased) reduces the spoils of war to a very low probability.

5. Same as 4

I'm right behind you
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#168 - 2015-05-12 18:36:00 UTC
corebloodbrothers wrote:
This one ccp nullabor mentions now is also being discussed by the csm. Its good ccp nullabor is open about the intention behind no pos or structure guns firing with no player active in control off them. Cause its a major change from current mechanisms. If u add the possibility too it from the structures then u can see a attack with hundreds of timers generated in 1 evening. Being it ton of structurs hit, systems hit with the link spawns to defend, and a buttload of reffed station services. Cause all these attacks have been removed from ehp grind, u can generate a insane amount of timers, which isnt possible under the current system.

Like nullabor said the trolling element is being watched and considered, however the mass storm of a attacker,blitzing a region, and the next hulkageddon being a posgeddon is one the csm is very much in discussion with CCP , and raises once more the debate, why be in null, why own sov. Only to lose it. Personally as a player and a csm i hope a fase 3 would follow the structures and the sov remoddeling. One where owning sov actually benenfits in a way thats both rewarding isk wise, but even more so fofilling deeper drivers. A model where buidable sov and upgrades are earned and can be applied by sovowners too give more sense of ownership would be for me personally, the way forward.


While I have no doubt that this is being brought forward to the CSM, I will state again here that this effect is massively amplified when your entire corporation or alliance assets are wrapped up in that single structure as is the case in wormhole space for many small to mid-sized corporations. Asset safety mechanisms are all fine and good in k-space but these w-space systems are not systems I can return to at my leisure after being removed from them. A journal entry telling me my stuff is floating in J123456 does me zero good after I have been permanently removed. This is no different than the risk I take today in my POS except that the level of attacking force needed to remove my POS is exponentially more than the level of force needed under Entosis mechanisms especially since the new structures refuse to defend themselves.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#169 - 2015-05-12 18:36:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Takeo Yanumano wrote:
Ijesz ToKolok wrote:
Quote:
Structures having a solar system wide-effect or otherwise impacting some kind of area will be publicly visible in space and in the overview


Are Citadels such structures?

Quote:
We are also thinking of having them visible and directly warpable from the on-board scanner to preserve Wormhole space gameplay.


I don't think wormhole space gameplay requires such towers to be warpable. WH folks, is it important?



Depends. Since wh-ers depend on POS being moon-bound as an important aspect of defense and intel-gathering currently, it would follow that having some way to find the citadel is needed. However, having it directly warpable from the on-board scanner makes that intel basically free, which is contrary to wh principles of skillful utilization of d-scan.


You won't know the configuration of the station once you do warp in there. Blink

TL;DR Station scanning equipment? (ง ͠° ͟ل͜ ͡°)ง

With a cycle time longer than the target lock + scramble time to your internet spaceship. (ง ͠° ͟ل͜ ͡°)ง

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#170 - 2015-05-12 18:37:23 UTC
I assume in addition to sizes, there will be Racial versions right? And if so, will there be Faction versions? Like a Blood one that has a bonus to Vamp, or Serpentis that has a bonus to IN YOUR FACE PAWNAGE?

Love the idea of Fighters and Drones for them. This just makes sense, given it's supposed to be a STATION. It would be nice if for these to have mods to increase Bandwidth, so they could have more drones/fighters out, rather than fitting other weapons.

I'd like to see AI Defense.. even if it doesn't use the DD's and other special weapons, give them some anchorable turrents and such that would act like a current POS to defend itself even when you're away.. But like a current POS, they can be Pop'd.


Now, as for dealing with if it goes boom. Here's my suggestion, Asset Insurance. Kinda like household insurance. Higher you pay, the more you get. Station goes boom, lets say 50% Drop 50% Destroyed. The 50% Destroyed is covered by basic insurance, you get the Items [NOT ISK] at your "Home" station, or nearest NPC Station. Note, not FREE Insurance, but a basic entry level. The 50% Dropped, based on insurance level chosen above basic, can be paid out. Won't be cheap, has ISK Cap's, not % cap's.

Anyway those are my few cents.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#171 - 2015-05-12 18:38:04 UTC
corebloodbrothers wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Quote:
Structures won't be able to shoot without someone manning the guns. As CCP Nullarbor mentioned, we have options under our sleeves to mitigate the risk from this change. Like having a reduced vulnerability window in specific areas, and / or be able to have NPCs spawn.


This is a bit of a slippery slope eh? I know you want individuals to feel that they can use the medium structures, but relying on NPC pirates to provide defense is... questionable on a number of levels.

No offense intended.


You would not rely in NPC defense at all, it would be a mild deterrent against a lone ship at best, the point is to show up for your timers and defend.

As I mentioned the balance will be how frequently this happens so that it's not a chore, but still provides opportunities for an interesting engagement.



This one ccp nullabor mentions now is also being discussed by the csm. Its good ccp nullabor is open about the intention behind no pos or structure guns firing with no player active in control off them. Cause its a major change from current mechanisms. If u add the possibility too it from the structures then u can see a attack with hundreds of timers generated in 1 evening. Being it ton of structurs hit, systems hit with the link spawns to defend, and a buttload of reffed station services. Cause all these attacks have been removed from ehp grind, u can generate a insane amount of timers, which isnt possible under the current system.

Like nullabor said the trolling element is being watched and considered, however the mass storm of a attacker,blitzing a region, and the next hulkageddon being a posgeddon is one the csm is very much in discussion with CCP , and raises once more the debate, why be in null, why own sov. Only to lose it. Personally as a player and a csm i hope a fase 3 would follow the structures and the sov remoddeling. One where owning sov actually benenfits in a way thats both rewarding isk wise, but even more so fofilling deeper drivers. A model where buidable sov and upgrades are earned and can be applied by sovowners too give more sense of ownership would be for me personally, the way forward.

Interesting point, but if timers can't be started because guns shoot the entosis vessel (or at least breaks their lock with EW) then I don't see an issue unless it is indeed a wide scale assault with significant forces devoted to each and every structure.

Actually, the way forward in Null has always been rather simple, and this system is veering somewhat drunkenly in that direction (which is a huge step forward by the way).

The larger a Sov holding entity is, the more profitable his space becomes AND the more difficult it is to successfully defend.

Advantage to the defender should work for small entities, not large ones. Financial gain is the reward for the big boys if they are smart enough to hang onto it for a while. Wealth is fleeting.

The new Sov system looks likely to get us a lot closer to that state, which is a very good and healthy thing for the game.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Takeo Yanumano
Doomheim
#172 - 2015-05-12 18:40:34 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Takeo Yanumano wrote:
Ijesz ToKolok wrote:
Quote:
Structures having a solar system wide-effect or otherwise impacting some kind of area will be publicly visible in space and in the overview


Are Citadels such structures?

Quote:
We are also thinking of having them visible and directly warpable from the on-board scanner to preserve Wormhole space gameplay.


I don't think wormhole space gameplay requires such towers to be warpable. WH folks, is it important?



Depends. Since wh-ers depend on POS being moon-bound as an important aspect of defense and intel-gathering currently, it would follow that having some way to find the citadel is needed. However, having it directly warpable from the on-board scanner makes that intel basically free, which is contrary to wh principles of skillful utilization of d-scan.


You won't know the configuration of the station once you do warp in there. Blink

TL;DR Station scanning equipment? (ง ͠° ͟ل͜ ͡°)ง

With a cycle time longer than the target lock + scramble time to your internet spaceship. (ง ͠° ͟ل͜ ͡°)ง



They've already said that cargo scanners and ship scanners would work on citadels, iirc.
Dalic Thunderer
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#173 - 2015-05-12 18:41:01 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Obil Que wrote:
w-space isn't a null-sec style occupation of dozens of connected systems. It is an entire corporation putting all their assets on the line in a single space and often structure. To make it trivial to destroy said structure or to occupy or otherwise invade that space isn't balance. It would, however, ensure that w-space occupation goes the way of the dodo.


w-space was never meant to be occupied. You should not be living there.

Eve Gold tagging - so useful
http://i.imgur.com/57Z2n15.png
Tyr Dolorem
State War Academy
Caldari State
#174 - 2015-05-12 18:41:05 UTC
what about lowsec....
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#175 - 2015-05-12 18:46:26 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
When people think "Strong defense fortification" they don't tend to think of an appointment calendar... they think about automated defensive batteries. Smile


I'm sorry, but the appointment calendar is full this week, try your attack next week.

...if you can find a parking spot.

:)

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#176 - 2015-05-12 18:46:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Takeo Yanumano wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:


You won't know the configuration of the station once you do warp in there. Blink

TL;DR Station scanning equipment? (ง ͠° ͟ل͜ ͡°)ง

With a cycle time longer than the target lock + scramble time to your internet spaceship. (ง ͠° ͟ل͜ ͡°)ง



They've already said that cargo scanners and ship scanners would work on citadels, iirc.


The Rifters. The Reapers. THE INVASION.


Our time has come. For 8 years, we prepared. We grew stronger. While you rested in your cradle of power, believing your people were safe... and protected. You were trusted to lead the new Era—but you were deceived, as our powers of the Rifter have blinded you. You assumed no force could challenge you... and now... finally... We have returned.

You were deceived. And now, your Citadels shall fall.

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Ariete
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#177 - 2015-05-12 18:47:57 UTC
If a person docks in a station, they will be able to see out but would you be able to see them inside from the outside?
Takeo Yanumano
Doomheim
#178 - 2015-05-12 18:53:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeo Yanumano
Ariete wrote:
If a person docks in a station, they will be able to see out but would you be able to see them inside from the outside?


Only if they leave the lights on.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#179 - 2015-05-12 18:54:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Scatim Helicon
Papa Django wrote:
Is there a number of structures per solar system limitation like a slot fiting system planned ?

Oh wow. This gives me a ridiculously awesome (or possibly just ridiculous) idea.

Fitting slots for celestial bodies. Using the characteristics of a planet or moon to affect the number or characteristics of structures placed around it. Terraforming projects to fundamentally alter the features of a celestial body and the resources available from it.

(this is probably way outside the scope of this particular blog but is way too big to not mention, I may write something up and post it in F&ID later)

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Dentia Caecus
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#180 - 2015-05-12 18:57:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Dentia Caecus
If I understand the blog correctly, the new structure guns will use existing gunnery and / or missile support skills.

1. Does this mean that a player, who, for whatever reason, is a gunnery pilot only will be a poor or ineffective structure missile user and vice versa for pure missile pilots for structure guns?

2. Does this also hold true for the drones/fighters/fighter bombers proposed later in the blog? Does a player have to be able to use drones/fighters/fighter bombers on a ship to use them from a structure or will the structure drone skills present a new set of skills to train?

Regarding capital docking, please consider the case of the rorqual and orca. Both are capital ships. Many small and medium alliances depend on these vessels for economic survival and need to be able to dock them to both keep them safe-ish and use their toons for other purposes. Players who use these vessels frequently should not find these ships relegated to space-coffin status.

Please allow these classes of ship to be docked in the large citadel structure.