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[June] [Updated] Module Tiericide - Afterburners & Microwarpdrives

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#221 - 2015-05-05 11:29:18 UTC
Zeus Cronus wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
Zeus Cronus wrote:
Ppl complaining about these ships going to fast sure as hell got teflon brains, or are just to young to remember.


Said the two day old troll and was never heard from again

Oh sorry, didnt know that a 2012 char was a two day old troll... Why dont you go back to you cave, and try to not live up to the alliance name as fully as you do Roll
Those 88 kills you got on eve-kill really makes you an expert on the subject of this i guess Roll


Then allow me to also chime in with concerns over the speed changes.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#222 - 2015-05-05 11:29:32 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Lowering the overall bonuses from MWDs is not going to address the kiting issues being brought up in this thread. Stacking, bonuses & reviewing specific hulls are much better ways 'fix' that issue. Please be patient with us =)
This is hopeful. But in the meantime please don't keep introducing ships in a broken state. Garmur, Orthrus, T3Ds were all in the wrong direction.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#223 - 2015-05-05 11:34:29 UTC
Ju0ZaS wrote:
People complainig bout some speed creep... Probay the nubs that aproach f1 everything in their slow ass buffer ship and can't see past the exchange of dps vs buffer/rep amount.


Said the highsec wardec pilot who mainly flies a bufferprot. Lol
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#224 - 2015-05-05 12:35:25 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
First up, thanks mates for all the awesome feedback!

[

Lets look at some other MWD speeds, across classes (regular / overloaded):
  • Regular Garmur (Gistii A-Type 1/5MN MWD, Bonuses, Quafe Zero) Pre 5015 / 7251 > Post 5176 / 7281
  • Kestrel (Gistii A-Type 1/5MN MWD, Bonuses, Quafe Zero) Pre 3480 / 5017 > Post 3770 / 5290
  • Svipul (Gistii A-Type 1/5MN MWD, Bonuses, Quafe Zero) Pre 3572 / 5107 > Post 3683 / 5129
  • Orthrus (Gistii A-Type 10/50MN MWD, Bonuses, Quafe Zero) Pre 3054 / 4421 > Post 3152 / 4439
  • Augoror Navy Issue (Gistii A-Type 10/50MN MWD, Bonuses, Quafe Zero) Pre 1896 / 2719 > Post 1938 / 2705
  • Ishtar (Gistii A-Type 10/50MN MWD, Bonuses, Quafe Zero) Pre 2084 / 3004 > Post 2149 / 3016
  • Drake (Gistii A-Type 10/50MN MWD, Bonuses, Quafe Zero) Pre 1316 / 1882 > Post 1356 / 1889
  • Tornado (Gistii A-Type 10/50MN MWD, Bonuses, Quafe Zero) Pre 2077 / 2968 > Post 2141 / 2980
  • Machariel (Gistii A-Type 100/500MN MWD, Bonuses, Quafe Zero) Pre 1994 / 2885 > Post 2058 / 2897
  • Abaddon (Gistii A-Type 100/500MN MWD, Bonuses, Quafe Zero) Pre 896 / 1292 > Post 922 / 1294


We need to look at the entire meta, not just the edge cases. Do I like that Garmur going 13k/s? Not really, but that fit is worth over 2b (including implants) and has made a lot of sacrifices to go that fast




Correct me i I'm wrong but what I see=

1) Lower signature penalties
2) Faster MWD's
and all the AB's are going faster as well

now as a pilot who likes to fly missiles ships, that to my humble opinion have already problems with damage application on many platforms.

taking in consideration almost ever ship uses a prop mod.

how is this not a direct nerf on missles as a whole, you could just as well have nerfed their explosion radius an exploision velocity. with 10 to 20 %.

will torpedo's not fired from extremly bonused hulls every do damage to something that is not a structure or a capital?

since you where talking of looking at whole picture.
Crysantos Callahan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#225 - 2015-05-05 12:39:04 UTC
Gorski Car wrote:
Nice to see that t2 mwds are actually faster now. But really do we need more speed creep in eve? it feels like ships are super fast right now and that creates some problems in my opinion. In a vacum they might be okish whats most important is what you guys are planning to do with links since they heavily affect this as well. For certain ships these changes might be terrifying though. Garmurs doing 10k m/s or stilettos burning 100km and tackeling you before you can lock them.


Edit 1: that new mwd and hacs gon be awesome or horrible depending on how much u like ishtars less sig is pretty strong. Also good on logis (i am good at observations yo)

Edit 2: Super fast ships have some serious issues with server ticks and locking them. Sometimes you find yourself jumping a gate with a ceptor and due to how server ticks work you might fail the first try to lock him while he is clearly heating mwd towards you. It is a minor thing but it is a annoying problem with how fast these frigs go.

Edit 3: deadspace mwd speed buff is fine for 50MN and 500MN but for 5MN it is broken. These ships are already so fast and there are a couple that are borderline cancerous to the other frigates and those are the exact same frigates that will benefit from more speed.

Edit 4: The new mwd seems super strong sacrificing almost nothing for that sig reduction and ****


Pretty much this - especially the #1 and #2

I'd rather see a reduction in cap usage or increase the duration.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#226 - 2015-05-05 12:49:05 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
missile stuff


I believe missiles are getting a look this patch too, I'm reserving judgement until then.

That said, I'm trying to remember the last time I fired one not at an NPC....
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
#227 - 2015-05-05 12:54:47 UTC
Add agikity and masd based abs/ mwd's
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#228 - 2015-05-05 13:27:25 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:

Arguing that 55m/s faster on a max speed fit overloading Garmur is going to break the meta is slightly ridiculous. I am not suggesting that we won't change the progression of speed bonuses on MWDs. Some of the ideas on this thread are solid and something we will be reviewing.



Yeah they already can outrun light missile from anything but another mordu ship or a triple missile speed rigged and missile speed bonused ship so I guess 55 m/s more is not a big deal...
Ju0ZaS
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#229 - 2015-05-05 14:06:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Ju0ZaS
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Ju0ZaS wrote:
People complainig bout some speed creep... Probay the nubs that aproach f1 everything in their slow ass buffer ship and can't see past the exchange of dps vs buffer/rep amount.


Said the highsec wardec pilot who mainly flies a bufferprot. Lol

I fly a lot more than that. And I barely use that thing so you may keep your silly comments to yourself.

Are you going to fight me or do you expect to bore me to death with your forum pvp?
Oktura Ostus
THE CORP WITH NO NAME
#230 - 2015-05-05 14:09:53 UTC
People are strange. They've found out that there is 2b fit for kiting frigate that can do 13k and now they are trying to make problem from this. If it's so overpowered then why you don't flight it now? It's lowskill. Please do! The patch will add only 0.3% to those 13k. It's already 13k. It's already should be imba.

May be because your invested billions needs good hands and won't survive smartbombs on the gate? Or may be because you have cruiser size signature, can't sig-tank and any arty/alpha cruiser fit can instapop your millions? Or may be because of boring pvp, nobody want's to play with you, as boring as in worm?

If it were really imba, we should see them everywhere, like ishtars or svipuls.

Furthermore, if we look into details either base 500% or 450% will result in almost same Eve. It should apply to all mwds, and to signature penalty too. Hence:
1. if you can't hit orbiting stilleto, you wan't be able to do this and after the patch. Same sig/speed ratio.
2. if your stiletto can't catch that speedy garmur, he wan't be able to do this and after the patch. Same speeds bonuses on both.
3. if mwd kiter killing you on your ab, he will be able to do this and after the patch. Difference between ab and mwd is still huge.

And the only thing that could change: you want to warp out from far point, but this stiletto/garmur is running to you on full speed to get point. And then let's be honest:

Game mechanics already gives free second interval priority to you. You can still warpout if you reach needed 75% even after interceptor is in range and has activated the point. You just have to do this in the same second. Up to 999ms for free(!) from CCP with best wishes. And then you want to save 5-10ms more? Pretty unhonest from interceptor pilot point of view :)

Secondly, 450%? -50% for what reason? Why not -5% to have same avarage? And, those -5% will save you 5-10ms. Pretty useless for those, who already lost those free "up to 999ms" to interceptor. Just grow your skill, it will save much more isk.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#231 - 2015-05-05 14:21:43 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:
First up, thanks mates for all the awesome feedback!

[

Lets look at some other MWD speeds, across classes (regular / overloaded):
  • Regular Garmur (Gistii A-Type 1/5MN MWD, Bonuses, Quafe Zero) Pre 5015 / 7251 > Post 5176 / 7281
  • Kestrel (Gistii A-Type 1/5MN MWD, Bonuses, Quafe Zero) Pre 3480 / 5017 > Post 3770 / 5290
  • Svipul (Gistii A-Type 1/5MN MWD, Bonuses, Quafe Zero) Pre 3572 / 5107 > Post 3683 / 5129
  • Orthrus (Gistii A-Type 10/50MN MWD, Bonuses, Quafe Zero) Pre 3054 / 4421 > Post 3152 / 4439
  • Augoror Navy Issue (Gistii A-Type 10/50MN MWD, Bonuses, Quafe Zero) Pre 1896 / 2719 > Post 1938 / 2705
  • Ishtar (Gistii A-Type 10/50MN MWD, Bonuses, Quafe Zero) Pre 2084 / 3004 > Post 2149 / 3016
  • Drake (Gistii A-Type 10/50MN MWD, Bonuses, Quafe Zero) Pre 1316 / 1882 > Post 1356 / 1889
  • Tornado (Gistii A-Type 10/50MN MWD, Bonuses, Quafe Zero) Pre 2077 / 2968 > Post 2141 / 2980
  • Machariel (Gistii A-Type 100/500MN MWD, Bonuses, Quafe Zero) Pre 1994 / 2885 > Post 2058 / 2897
  • Abaddon (Gistii A-Type 100/500MN MWD, Bonuses, Quafe Zero) Pre 896 / 1292 > Post 922 / 1294


We need to look at the entire meta, not just the edge cases. Do I like that Garmur going 13k/s? Not really, but that fit is worth over 2b (including implants) and has made a lot of sacrifices to go that fast




Correct me i I'm wrong but what I see=

1) Lower signature penalties
2) Faster MWD's
and all the AB's are going faster as well

now as a pilot who likes to fly missiles ships, that to my humble opinion have already problems with damage application on many platforms.

taking in consideration almost ever ship uses a prop mod.

how is this not a direct nerf on missles as a whole, you could just as well have nerfed their explosion radius an exploision velocity. with 10 to 20 %.

will torpedo's not fired from extremly bonused hulls every do damage to something that is not a structure or a capital?

since you where talking of looking at whole picture.





Missiles hit fine with application mods. And before someone chimes in on using precious midslots for application, its called a trade-off. You cant have a huge tank and perfect application at the same time.

Ive killed 10mn t3d with a drake or RHML phoon, among plenty of other low sig/fast ships. But i fit for application and lower tank. Still worked fine in most cases.

The changes proposed are pretty minor tbh. Guess my svipul will be getting closer to its pre-nerf speed. Lol.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Cleanse Serce
Lonesome Capsuleer
#232 - 2015-05-05 14:59:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Cleanse Serce
I thought Tiericide was meant to make things easier.

I just see wierd names with letters and nombers everywhere, and wierd words like Cold-Cas, propellant, and such...

Whatever..

Can't wait to see what you gonna do for eWar modules and their T2 version of them.
Finally ! :p
Alexis Nightwish
#233 - 2015-05-05 15:38:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexis Nightwish
CCP Larrikin wrote:
[snip]Lowering the overall bonuses from MWDs is not going to address the kiting issues being brought up in this thread. Stacking, bonuses & reviewing specific hulls are much better ways 'fix' that issue. Please be patient with us =)


Alexis Nightwish wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:

We are going to be watching how the small speed buff affects TQ. We've done a bunch of internal testing and don't expect it to have a large impact on the meta. That said, give us your feedback! There are 4 weeks till release.
Yeah but the current meta, (as it relates to speed), sucks!

Given that, I like the increase on speed for Afterburners, but I do NOT like the increase on speed for MWDs. EVE is already "Go MWD or go home." If anything, this rework should be used to reduce the speed bonus of MWDs. T1 should be +400%, Officer should be +500%, and everything else in the middle.

Please see my above comments. To add to that, we'd rather have a small progression between Meta 0 and Meta 17 modules. Having even a larger difference between new players (using meta 0 & 1 modules) and veterans (using Meta 15 to 17 modules) is not something we consider desirable.
Your point about having a small progression up the meta level ladder is a good one, and I agree. However, I strongly disagree with your statement that lowering MWD speeds would not help the meta. Virtually every ship I own has a MWD, because without it, I cannot compete against those who do.

The current meta is "Speed wins." Nerfing MWDs would absolutely benefit the game as a whole. I'm not even looking at outlier cases like 13k Garmurs. I'm talking about what is encountered every day. If the spread from +400% to +500% is too large, then simply subtract 100 from the proposed bonuses, resulting in a range from +400% to +420%.

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Advenat Bedala
Facehoof
#234 - 2015-05-05 15:48:07 UTC
Hey! What are you doing with Republic fleet/Angel AB and MWD? They'll be worse than fed navy/serpentis in almost all cases. If you don't want to give them more speed give them less capasitor requrements or overload bonus or less mass addition or something else.
Solj RichPopolous
Silent Havok.
H A R D L I N E R S
#235 - 2015-05-05 16:10:38 UTC
Lady Spank wrote:
Gorski Car wrote:
Nice to see that t2 mwds are actually faster now. But really do we need more speed creep in eve? it feels like ships are super fast right now and that creates some problems in my opinion. In a vacum they might be okish whats most important is what you guys are planning to do with links since they heavily affect this as well. For certain ships these changes might be terrifying though. Garmurs doing 10k m/s or stilettos burning 100km and tackeling you before you can lock them.


This. Kiting is already the go-to meta.



Of course its the go to meta. Its the only one that requires situational and spatial awareness and just in general brain power. I love fighting kiters as well as being one. Seems like everyone just wants the game to be train for proteus and vindicator and hit approach and f1 with as little brain power needed as possible. This is space if you want things that sit still while you shoot at them go play WoT.
Solj RichPopolous
Silent Havok.
H A R D L I N E R S
#236 - 2015-05-05 17:02:40 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Quote:
With a Gistii A-Type 1/5MN Microwarpdrive fit Garmur (faction, snakes, zor's custom, and max fleet bonuses) in KSpace I'm getting -
  • 8606 m/s Prepatch > 8883 m/s Postpatch
  • 12462 m/s Prepatch > 12514 m/s Postpatch Overloaded



and you don't see a problem here??????????????????????????????


I'm having trouble understanding the rage of MWDs?? Maybe no one has figured out that scram rules this game but I'm pretty sure that the MWD bonus with scram applied is still 0%? If the ship is moving that fast he is going to be a pee shooter that can't hurt you or not able to apply any real dps anyway, and that goes for any ship just about.

Have to bark at the guys in my group so much about this. FIT A SCRAM. a TS one at that. LEave it overheated and should you have a booster around there you go 17km scram. MWDs are irrelevant unless they are just for running away.
Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#237 - 2015-05-05 17:07:02 UTC
Nice change! The naming goes really well with EvE lore and going back to old naming which was removed to make things easier is a good step to make the game feel more harsh and dark.
Also I like that its getting more difficult to apply damage in a turret ship yet again which will push more new players into deciding to fly a Orthurs and makes ship choice easier for them. However I think that lmls need a slight buff to compensate for a few edge cases (like very fast Vagabonds) where full damage cant be applied anymore using a rapid light missile launcher.

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Nou Mene
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#238 - 2015-05-05 17:23:41 UTC
Fredric Wolf wrote:
I feel compact should have worse stats the meta 0 as you need to have a trade off for easier fitting right now everything is better then meta 0 and there are no benefits to fitting these.


Meta 0 should be the standard... any other meta should have trade offs...
Solj RichPopolous
Silent Havok.
H A R D L I N E R S
#239 - 2015-05-05 17:27:20 UTC
Galphii wrote:
Uh, is the "compact" 100mn AB going to make it easier to fit those ridiculous 100mn AB tengu fits? Because they need to die.


If a tengu is using anything but a deadspace 100mn AB its a joke to begin with and if you can't stop it you have bigger IQ issues that need to be resolved.

As far as the whole reason the oversizing prop mod solution works lets analyze it for a second. Speed vs sig radius plus scrams being a non factor. Let's just sit and think hmm are there modules in the game that decrease the speed as well as modules that increase the sig???

No, really I'll wait on you to think this out. Here's a hint there are even ships that get a bonus to these said modules and not just 1 but both at the same time. Sorry your stupid brick ship won't work for this. I know most people get mad if they can't hop in a proteus and sit on top of their target.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#240 - 2015-05-05 17:47:32 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:


We need to look at the entire meta, not just the edge cases.


A few people are mentioning the entire meta, not just edge cases. Speed creep affects everything.

JUSTK is recruiting