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CCP - End Highsec Incursions

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Solecist Project
#261 - 2015-04-28 08:54:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Final response because I won't be trolled into getting this thread closed with a mud slinging contest that drowns out the content.

If people are trying to run site and you end those sites it interferes. It's like any other sort of resource interference where one party has the chance to deplete something another is using or exploiting. It's a pretty basic concept. The fact that the act of denial occurs through use of the same mechanic is irrelevant. The way it's being exploited allows that interference to be meaningful to the very people you are trying to effect.

To the other point there is nothing in the thread which justifies special interference. There isn't anything in an incursion pocket that dictates a fleet comp should have anything to fear that it otherwise wouldn't save the complications brought by the content itself. I'd ask why you feel otherwise, and have, but I'm confident you won't answer.

If your argument for this is that the content is too lucrative then the issue lies there, not with a perceived lack of interference. If you can't take down the fleet outside the site and the difference of being in the incursion doesn't make up the slack you don't deserve to take them down.

Also, no, I don't run incursions. I haven't in over a year. I just don't feel your point makes sense and you refuse to clarify. So I guess we're done.


It's not trolling just because I refuse to rehash what has been written all over this thread.

Thank you for admitting that you are indeed running, or were running, incursions,
and thus are a questionable person to discuss the topic with.

I'm sorry, but "ending" does not in any way or form equal "interference".

Popping the mom would not interfere with running the incursion until the mom shows up.

Also, you show that you did not read through the thread and thus have absolutely nothing valid to say.
Simply popping in and demanding to know what has been written already ...

... lol yeah, but calling me a troll. That's all you people do.
When you are outmatched the other person is a troll.


You're a hypocrite and never had anything valid to say.


Thanks for your participation.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Memphis Baas
#262 - 2015-04-28 09:03:03 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Besides, if you want to do something about HS incursions and their risk factor then do it. Mechanics exist in this game that allow you to create risk for them.


Easy to say but near impossible to do. You cannot gank these fleets and hope to make anything but a massive loss. They sport hefty tanks, roll with six and up t2 logi ships and pack a lot of firepower. They will rip apart a gank fleet like a knife through butter.


Sorry, Baltec1, but that's bullshit. You guys are cutting through 800+ship fleets with a lot more DPS and tank on a regular basis, but a 40-ship fleet is a problem because of tanked battleships and logi support? Forget about suicide-ganking, you can't apply the same tactic to everything high-sec, and it's getting tired and lame anyway.

An Incursion Fleet is a 40-man bling fleet that is engaged in PVE combat with NPCs that can rip it apart if anything goes wrong with the logi reps or the tank cycles; how hard can it be to disrupt the fight and cause something to "go wrong"? Forget about your -10.0 suicide-gank alts, their sec status is limiting them (as intended), and they won't be able to get to where the action is. Go with neutral alts. And finally, they're organized as "incursion communities", don't tell me it's hard to insert spies to figure out where they're staging and what they're doing, and to disrupt from the inside.

They've managed to organize themselves enough to do the equivalent of 40-man pick-up raids in other MMO's, and are getting world boss purple-level rewards for it. It's admirable, but nowhere near the level of organization that even medium alliances have achieved. But expecting a simple suicide gank to be effective against them is like expecting an afk-cloaker to completely ruin your nullsec alliance.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#263 - 2015-04-28 09:03:03 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Final response because I won't be trolled into getting this thread closed with a mud slinging contest that drowns out the content.

If people are trying to run site and you end those sites it interferes. It's like any other sort of resource interference where one party has the chance to deplete something another is using or exploiting. It's a pretty basic concept. The fact that the act of denial occurs through use of the same mechanic is irrelevant. The way it's being exploited allows that interference to be meaningful to the very people you are trying to effect.

To the other point there is nothing in the thread which justifies special interference. There isn't anything in an incursion pocket that dictates a fleet comp should have anything to fear that it otherwise wouldn't save the complications brought by the content itself. I'd ask why you feel otherwise, and have, but I'm confident you won't answer.

If your argument for this is that the content is too lucrative then the issue lies there, not with a perceived lack of interference. If you can't take down the fleet outside the site and the difference of being in the incursion doesn't make up the slack you don't deserve to take them down.

Also, no, I don't run incursions. I haven't in over a year. I just don't feel your point makes sense and you refuse to clarify. So I guess we're done.


It's not trolling just because I refuse to rehash what has been written all over this thread.

Thank you for admitting that you are indeed running, or were running, incursions,
and thus are a questionable person to discuss the topic with.

I'm sorry, but "ending" does not in any way or form equal "interference".

Popping the mom would not interfere with running the incursion until the mom shows up.

Also, you show that you did not read through the thread and thus have absolutely nothing valid to say.
Simply popping in and demanding to know what has been written already ...

... lol yeah, but calling me a troll. That's all you people do.
When you are outmatched the other person is a troll.


You're a hypocrite and never had anything valid to say.


Thanks for your participation.

Should have stuck with my guns on the prior post but failing that:

I opted out because you aren't interested in a conversation. You refuse to defend your point and only deflect, you dismiss the points of others as "stupid tricks" and your 2nd to last line contains sufficient justification for the accusation of troll along side the series of ad hominem fallacies you started punctuating you posts with.

...and here I am taking the bait. I suppose I should congratulate that victory
Solecist Project
#264 - 2015-04-28 09:04:05 UTC

So ... can this be ended now?

There is nothing more to add.
Opinions are irrelevant.

What matters is cold, hard reality,
of which details can be found spread out in this thread.
At least for those who are able to see beyond opinionated bullshitting.

There is no sane way to interfere with incursions at all.
Popping the mom does not count, because the mom symbolises the end.
Once it's gone the incursion ends and all the farming has been done already.

Furthermore do greedy people, who deliberately not shoot the mom,
actually hurt the ingame reality from the perspective of "lore",
because they deliberately let millions of people get zombified by the Sanshas.


What CCP should do is cut the income down to a quarter and then see
who actually runs them for the "fun" and not for the "greed".

That would be a good step to determine what should be done next.

Dare I say we'd see a huge drop in fleets running incursions ...
... because it is highly likely most people mistake satisfying their ego through isk with "fun".


All relevant details can be found with in this thread.


Anything else I forgot?

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Solecist Project
#265 - 2015-04-28 09:07:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Should have stuck with my guns on the prior post but failing that:

I opted out because you aren't interested in a conversation. You refuse to defend your point and only deflect, you dismiss the points of others as "stupid tricks" and your 2nd to last line contains sufficient justification for the accusation of troll along side the series of ad hominem fallacies you started punctuating you posts with.

...and here I am taking the bait. I suppose I should congratulate that victory

There is no need to "defend a point".

You fail to read through the thread and want people to rehash what is already being written.
This is complete nonsense and can be dismissed completely.
If you wished to participate, you would read through the thread.
That's all there is to it.


Furthermore are you mistaking me for someone like you.

There is no "victory".
I do not give a single **** about opinions.
What matters is facts and reality.

You and so many others come here discussing their opinions,
as if that had any relevance at all. Most people are completely incapable
of seperating "what they see" with "what is actually going on",
thus completely vaporising any "arguments" they have in the first place.


Thank you for your participation.

I will respond again if you have anything relevant to say ...
... but I also will make sure to point out the flaws in what people like you post.

Cheers.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Memphis Baas
#266 - 2015-04-28 09:08:07 UTC
No, if you're done with the discussion then stop posting. We'd like to continue to express opinions. Even if rehashed.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#267 - 2015-04-28 09:08:12 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:

So ... can this be ended now?

There is nothing more to add.
Opinions are irrelevant.

What matters is cold, hard reality,
of which details can be found spread out in this thread.
At least for those who are able to see beyond opinionated bullshitting.

There is no sane way to interfere with incursions at all.
Popping the mom does not count, because the mom symbolises the end.
Once it's gone the incursion ends and all the farming has been done already.

Furthermore do greedy people, who deliberately not shoot the mom,
actually hurt the ingame reality from the perspective of "lore",
because they deliberately let millions of people get zombified by the Sanshas.


What CCP should do is cut the income down to a quarter and then see
who actually runs them for the "fun" and not for the "greed".

That would be a good step to determine what should be done next.

Dare I say we'd see a huge drop in fleets running incursions ...
... because it is highly likely most people mistake satisfying their ego through isk with "fun".


All relevant details can be found with in this thread.


Anything else I forgot?


and people might start moving to other profitable parts of space to make isk instead of living in the incursion bubble where they dont need to actually go anywhere because highsec safety and the best money available

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Solecist Project
#268 - 2015-04-28 09:11:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
Lan Wang wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:

So ... can this be ended now?

There is nothing more to add.
Opinions are irrelevant.

What matters is cold, hard reality,
of which details can be found spread out in this thread.
At least for those who are able to see beyond opinionated bullshitting.

There is no sane way to interfere with incursions at all.
Popping the mom does not count, because the mom symbolises the end.
Once it's gone the incursion ends and all the farming has been done already.

Furthermore do greedy people, who deliberately not shoot the mom,
actually hurt the ingame reality from the perspective of "lore",
because they deliberately let millions of people get zombified by the Sanshas.


What CCP should do is cut the income down to a quarter and then see
who actually runs them for the "fun" and not for the "greed".

That would be a good step to determine what should be done next.

Dare I say we'd see a huge drop in fleets running incursions ...
... because it is highly likely most people mistake satisfying their ego through isk with "fun".


All relevant details can be found with in this thread.


Anything else I forgot?


and people might start moving to other profitable parts of space to make isk instead of living in the incursion bubble where they dont need to actually go anywhere because highsec safety and the best money available

Well, it would be a start to find out who actually runs them for fun.
That would be tremendously helpfull in analysing and fixing the situation.
People who start doing other things expose themselves as the ones who only care about the ISK.

What matters is giving others a way to interfere with what these people are doing.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#269 - 2015-04-28 09:15:15 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Should have stuck with my guns on the prior post but failing that:

I opted out because you aren't interested in a conversation. You refuse to defend your point and only deflect, you dismiss the points of others as "stupid tricks" and your 2nd to last line contains sufficient justification for the accusation of troll along side the series of ad hominem fallacies you started punctuating you posts with.

...and here I am taking the bait. I suppose I should congratulate that victory

There is no need to "defend a point".

You fail to read through the thread and want people to rehash what is already being written.
This is complete nonsense and can be dismissed completely.
If you wished to participate, you would read through the thread.
That's all there is to it.


Furthermore are you mistaking me for someone like you.

There is no "victory".
I do not give a single **** about opinions.
What matters is facts and reality.

You and so many others come here discussing their opinions,
as if that had any relevance at all. Most people are completely incapable
of seperating "what they see" with "what is actually going on",
thus completely vaporising any "arguments" they have in the first place.


Thank you for your participation.

I will respond again if you have anything relevant to say ...
... but I also will make sure to point out the flaws in what people like you post.

Cheers.

You haven't actually pointed to any flaw in my post, just lodged insults, also I haven't objected to the idea of your proposed income nerf, just asked why the rules need changed in incursions regarding what a person or group can or can't interfere with normally.
Solecist Project
#270 - 2015-04-28 09:18:43 UTC
And I told you that you can read through the thread and find out yourself.
If you refuse to do so, then you have no ground to join in.

Just try to think about it for a minute. Every few pages some new person
would come up and ask for the exact same thing.

This is actual reality in so many other threads
and it leads exactly nowhere.

Thus ... read up on what's written.
It's there for a reason.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#271 - 2015-04-28 09:21:29 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
And I told you that you can read through the thread and find out yourself.
If you refuse to do so, then you have no ground to join in.

Just try to think about it for a minute. Every few pages some new person
would come up and ask for the exact same thing.

This is actual reality in so many other threads
and it leads exactly nowhere.

Thus ... read up on what's written.
It's there for a reason.

I've been in this thread reading and responding for a while, well before this chain started with you. There have been posts pointing out the lack of ability to interfere, but as stated, none justifying it. Why should that capacity exist only in the case of an incursion? No one has answered that.
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#272 - 2015-04-28 09:33:50 UTC
Maybe not remove them completely, just scale them, so the easiest and smallest sites are in High sec, like with exploration sites and plexes. Small fleets could do them for a profit, but not too big.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Solecist Project
#273 - 2015-04-28 09:34:57 UTC
*sighs*

Because it exists for literally everything else that is being done in space,
except AFK cloaking, which is a completely different matter and not the topic.

(AFK cloaking looks like it is going to be addressed, btw)


As you already know by reading through the thread,
there is absolutely no sane way to interfere.

Wardeccing is pointless, as they will drop corp and reform
or simply stay in NPC corps.

Suicide ganking is pointless, as there is no sane way
to stop an incursion fleet.

As baltec1 pointed out, it's not trivial to shoot down a fleet
of battleships with logi support.

The cost of doing so would far outweigh any potential benefit
and still would not make anyone actually leave the field.

It has been answered already.


You are asking the wrong question.

It's not "Why should that capacity exist only in the case of an incursion?".
This makes me wonder if you actually play the game.

It's "Why should incursions be the only thing that can't reasonably be interfered with by players?"


Because ... as has been written already ... it's simply not doable.
Incursion runners can run their incursions day and night, all day long.

If there was a sane way to interfere then people would obviously be doing it.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#274 - 2015-04-28 09:52:09 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
*sighs*

Because it exists for literally everything else that is being done in space,
except AFK cloaking, which is a completely different matter and not the topic.

(AFK cloaking looks like it is going to be addressed, btw)


As you already know by reading through the thread,
there is absolutely no sane way to interfere.

Wardeccing is pointless, as they will drop corp and reform
or simply stay in NPC corps.

Suicide ganking is pointless, as there is no sane way
to stop an incursion fleet.

As baltec1 pointed out, it's not trivial to shoot down a fleet
of battleships with logi support.

The cost of doing so would far outweigh any potential benefit
and still would not make anyone actually leave the field.

It has been answered already.


You are asking the wrong question.

It's not "Why should that capacity exist only in the case of an incursion?".
This makes me wonder if you actually play the game.

It's "Why should incursions be the only thing that can't reasonably be interfered with by players?"


Because ... as has been written already ... it's simply not doable.
Incursion runners can run their incursions day and night, all day long.

If there was a sane way to interfere then people would obviously be doing it.

The question you ask is actually simple to answer. The answer is, if other activities used similar fleet compositions they would be just as difficult and unfeasible to interfere with. Mining doesn't prohibit such a composition. Level 4 missions don't prohibit such a composition. They are highly unnecessary and as such don't occur save rare occasions if at all, but doable to the same effect.

I'm aware a tanked BS group is non-trivial to take down, especially with logi support, which seems to be the point of such a configuration. So to the question of why incursions are unique in regard to their inability to be interfered with, it's because they more or less mandate resilient configurations.

So I ask as a hypothetical, if I run such a config while missioning, does that create the need to alter missions to allow additional interference?

The fact that the content mandates you harden up reducing player capacity to interfere is certainly a reason for reducing income because a factor of risk is all but removed, I just don't see the connection to otherwise changing the rules of how ships work together.

To me this is no different to mining in a max tank skiff philosophically; you won't lose your ship unless someone is really determined despite the cost or you make a really dumb mistake.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#275 - 2015-04-28 09:52:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
If anyone takes the time to think it through there are multiple ways to interfere with Incursions, that they do not do so and whine that its "to hard" and then call for Incursions to be nerfed says it all. That reeks of self-entitlement worse than any that I have seen by what they call carebears.

Some people started going off about balance, well the inbalance created by a number of people who get their ISK, plex themselves and hardly play for the rest of the month creates what sort of imbalance, jealousy perhaps. If you want to talk about imbalance what about the one caused by Technicium which effectively turned null sec into the wasteland it is now apart from those that had the Tech, yeah Incursions are not balanced and are ruining the game, its a drop in the ocean compared to the Tech one whose affects are still being felt and will do so in June when fleets of Tech funded Troll Lokis will descend on Provi...

The Gankbears in here calling for a nerf are full of self-righteous self entitlement and should be treated with the contempt they deserve, you plonkers win Eve you know that...

EDIT: People who want an education should read all of the posts by Nevyn Auscent, he is so spot on, excellent posts, then read Jenn a'Side to see out of context troll posting at its finest...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Violet Hurst
Fedaya Recon
#276 - 2015-04-28 09:56:08 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Not a direct reference, I believe it was CCP Karkur on the German forums but I don't speak german well enough to put together a search string.
Given Fozzie has also come out and said Null earns plenty enough isk, that reinforces the likelyhood that most of those bounties do come from Null.

Hmm, gonna give that a shot after work.

Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Anyway, back to incursions and some fun maths.
Lets assume LP adds enough value to bring that average up to 10 Trillion per month for incursion income overall. Exact maths actually depends on the internal breakdown of VG's to HQ's from memory. And that all of this income is in high, we know for sure that low & null incursions do get run occasionally but we will assume that the percentage this adds to overall income is negligible.
And lets assume a 30 day month as an 'average' length month.
This means that there are 720 individual man hours in the month.

If we guess at a true average income of 100 Mil/Hour for an incursion pilot the following occurs.
10,000,000,000,000/100,000,000 = 100,000 Hours of income.
100,000/720 = 138(.88) pilots per hour supported.

Now I believe it's fair to say that Incursions are pretty much fully utilised with contests in HQ & VG's being common enough. And more people being involved would simply result in more contests and more pilots getting 0 income, rather than more fleets making full income.
So..... we have an activity that can at any one time support only 140 pilots give or take a few at 100 Mil/Hour. Unless Null & Low start packing out their incursions. This may be 500-700 pilots a day if we assume 6 hour play sessions which doesn't seem that unreasonable, or maybe as high as 1000 a day if we drop to 3 hour play sessions which is short.
Is it unreasonable for 1000 pilots who have mastered co-operation in a fleet, typically using deadspace fittings, pirate/T2 hulls, and are under a good FC, to make 100/Hour. These are not people solo farming, there is real risk even from the NPC's themselves let alone player intervention in the sites, even if we are just talking High sec.

If you find that number of players supported at that income unreasonable given the skills and co-operation involved, well, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.
However, the fun part about those numbers, if you claim 150/Hour income as the normal, those numbers drop to 600 pilots globally supported across an entire day. And under 100 pilots at any one time.


Please try to stay with the skirmish, don't go back to the war.
LP don't contribute to ISK inflation. It doesn't matter if it's only 1000 pilots who achieve 20% of the current ISK influx. Risk from scripted entities (Sansha NPCs) has nothing to do with ISK springing.
Solecist Project
#277 - 2015-04-28 10:01:57 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
The question you ask is actually simple to answer. The answer is, if other activities used similar fleet compositions they would be just as difficult and unfeasible to interfere with. Mining doesn't prohibit such a composition. Level 4 missions don't prohibit such a composition. They are highly unnecessary and as such don't occur save rare occasions if at all, but doable to the same effect.

I'm aware a tanked BS group is non-trivial to take down, especially with logi support, which seems to be the point of such a configuration. So to the question of why incursions are unique in regard to their inability to be interfered with, it's because they more or less mandate resilient configurations.

So I ask as a hypothetical, if I run such a config while missioning, does that create the need to alter missions to allow additional interference?

The fact that the content mandates you harden up reducing player capacity to interfere is certainly a reason for reducing income because a factor of risk is all but removed, I just don't see the connection to otherwise changing the rules of how ships work together.

To me this is no different to mining in a max tank skiff philosophically; you won't lose your ship unless someone is really determined despite the cost or you make a really dumb mistake.

The reason why I believe interference should be allowed,
is because of the insanely high income people can make without any risk whatsoever.

We have covered the risk factor extensively already and I won't go through that again.


I never cared about the income. The only reason why I bought up "cutting the income"
was to see who actually really cares about running incursions and who is just a greedy person.

From my POV they can have the money,
but then there should be a way to properly interfere.

You are right that similar fleet compositions would make it similar hard to interfere,
but I'm not sure that counts as argument, because that's not what we are seeing in reality.

Actually, I'm sure most people would cheer if mining fleets would be set up this way.
A known counter to such a fleet would be bumping, btw.

Bumping mining ships out of range of the logi is rather hard (hugh jass logi range) ...
... but bumping them out of range of asteroids isn't.

An effective counter to that would be webbing them,
but that would alter the fittings of the fleet considerably.


In any way, there is another big difference between
mining, mission running and incursions.


Anyone who wants to interfere with the incursioneers (isthatevenaword?)
would also have to deal with the Sanshas.

Incursioneers are indirectly protected by Sanshas,
as they would attack those who try to interfere as well,
making it significantly harder.

Belt rats or mission NPCs aren't even close to the threat Sanshas are.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Kamala
Doomheim
#278 - 2015-04-28 10:05:20 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Why do you connect fun with income?
The fun should be shooting them and fleeting up ...
... not the amount of ISK you make.


Says who?
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
#279 - 2015-04-28 10:11:58 UTC
RAWR

and while we're at it, how about frigate-doable sites? like, get a few kestrels with bursts for logi, do incursion sites like that.

sort of an entry-level incursion site for newbies.

unless there isn't already such a site... is there?

meow.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#280 - 2015-04-28 10:13:11 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
*sighs*

Because it exists for literally everything else that is being done in space,
except AFK cloaking, which is a completely different matter and not the topic.

(AFK cloaking looks like it is going to be addressed, btw)


As you already know by reading through the thread,
there is absolutely no sane way to interfere.

Wardeccing is pointless, as they will drop corp and reform
or simply stay in NPC corps.

Suicide ganking is pointless, as there is no sane way
to stop an incursion fleet.

As baltec1 pointed out, it's not trivial to shoot down a fleet
of battleships with logi support.

The cost of doing so would far outweigh any potential benefit
and still would not make anyone actually leave the field.

It has been answered already.


You are asking the wrong question.

It's not "Why should that capacity exist only in the case of an incursion?".
This makes me wonder if you actually play the game.

It's "Why should incursions be the only thing that can't reasonably be interfered with by players?"


Because ... as has been written already ... it's simply not doable.
Incursion runners can run their incursions day and night, all day long.

If there was a sane way to interfere then people would obviously be doing it.

The question you ask is actually simple to answer. The answer is, if other activities used similar fleet compositions they would be just as difficult and unfeasible to interfere with. Mining doesn't prohibit such a composition. Level 4 missions don't prohibit such a composition. They are highly unnecessary and as such don't occur save rare occasions if at all, but doable to the same effect.

I'm aware a tanked BS group is non-trivial to take down, especially with logi support, which seems to be the point of such a configuration. So to the question of why incursions are unique in regard to their inability to be interfered with, it's because they more or less mandate resilient configurations.

So I ask as a hypothetical, if I run such a config while missioning, does that create the need to alter missions to allow additional interference?

The fact that the content mandates you harden up reducing player capacity to interfere is certainly a reason for reducing income because a factor of risk is all but removed, I just don't see the connection to otherwise changing the rules of how ships work together.

To me this is no different to mining in a max tank skiff philosophically; you won't lose your ship unless someone is really determined despite the cost or you make a really dumb mistake.


mining and missioning doesnt supply near as much isk as incursions for the effort, miners and missioners do also look to other parts of space for better minerals and better missions in which case they are risking protection for the better payout, incursion runners dont need to because they dont need to take the risk because highsec pays them the most under the undefeatable safety feature (concord). again incursion runners dont need to leave highsec to make the best isk in the game which is wrong.

incursions are the only thing that dont scale like every other activity in eve, payouts in highsec 31mil isk, nullsec 45mil isk, 14mil isk difference between taking hardly any risk to taking the most risk in the game, that doesnt scale nearly enough to warrant jumping to null for an incursion. damn incursions in highsec dont even have rats on the gates

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*