EVE General Discussion

I'm pretty sure you guys could just kill them.

I don't run incursions and I never will. I think they're fine. Limiting someone's fun because you feel as if you are right about something abstract as balance in a video game is what's wrong in my opinion. The markets have already balanced out with the introduction of incursions and everyone is living their lives just fine. I feel as if you're shouting fire when there is no fire.

CCP has all the data. They know weather something is broken or not. Unfortunately, to keep good face, CCP has to listen to people who are children emotionally/mentally. Similar to a politician who wants to raise minimum wage so that a minority of people could benefit for only a temporary amount of time ignoring the majority who lose purchasing power (ie. quality of life goes down), increasing inflation, and making more people unemployed. This isn't just some theory. There's precedence. And it has always gone the same way.

Meanwhile, they're praised as heros and when everything finally catches up, the public blames whoever happens to be in office at the time. Funny how that works. All because of a populace that is uneducated with economics.

While I'm off topic, a better solution would be to tax people who make over $450k in a year 95% of their income above 450k. Because what may happen is people like that CEO from amazon might just slash his paycheck and reinvest it into the compnay, this way their workers could have air conditioning in their warehouses and not suffer from heat strokes. But hey, emotions. Personally, I believe people need to evolve past a currency based system and move on to some sort of manifest destiny where they're trying to help all humans out. But that's just fantasy.

Anyway, forgive me for the rant, I'm in a bad mood today. Regardless, I think incursions are fine. If they really do become a problem CCP will nerf them, but while I have been in the game, I haven't noticed an issue with people who do them. If that's all they do, that's because it's the only thing they find interesting in this game. You take their cake, they'll leave to get their cake else where. Not all of them would obviously and some would leave later rather than sooner. Regardless, CCP should know what's best for their company, fans, etc.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I disagree with you. I think they're fine.

I'm pretty sure most of us don't measure success by trivial things like ISK or KB stats.

To me, the most successful people in the game are those who venture to lowsec, nullsec, or WH space, and take great risks in the name of high space adventure. There will be lossmails. Hilarity will ensue.

However, it is an injustice that these play styles can't support losses as well as Hi Sec can. That just doesn't make sense at all from any position. Areas with more risk should have more potential income available. They don't. Plant the seeds of content today by removing Hi Sec Incursions and adjusting L4s.

Just reduce the payouts to 60mil/hr and watch all of these content lovers rant and rave over the loss of their isk printers.

Hmmm.... please bear with me as I know nothing of incursions (and red crosses in general, I prefer colored squares)...

What if CCP made incursions (or some of them at least) wildly unpredictable?

In N. of rats, strength, ewar, etc... Like -50% to +100% of the usual, randomly generated.

More risk, less boredom, larger fleets needed (for backup) so ISK/person dialled back a bit.

Makes sense?

umm...
Even if we assumed that 90% of all sold commodities were WH loot and 50% of all ratting bounties were from Null sec (which would be quite a claim), the term "VASTLY" seems inappropriate here.


EDIT: I don't have exact numbers handy at the moment, but when I look at the bar for agent mission payouts and consider the respective bounties using DPS as an example of highsec missions, that doesn't exactly leave much of the bounties bar for Nullsec ratters (or anyone else for that matter).

EDIT2: DPS == Dread Pirate Scarlet

The thing with incursions is, unless I have something surpemely backwards (which is entirely possible), they only pay out so much ISK to so many people. In the end, the amount of people getting rich off of incursions are few compared to the masses that are AFKtaring in 0.0 or running missions in Apancake or wherever it is they go these days.

Most areas with more risk do have greater income potentials if the numbers gathered by others around here are to be believed. The issue, which has always been and always likely will be, is the capacity to pursue maximum efficiency and likely go uninterrupted that highsec allows. If it were possible in other securities they would dominate highsec isk/hour.

Though reducing income has no bearing on loss sustainability when operating in an area where 0 losses is a real possibility.

Decoy's Simple (quoted) Rules for Thread Survival:


I've cleaned the last couple pages and trust you'll take this as a friendly reminder before continuing to post in this thread...

Not a direct reference, I believe it was CCP Karkur on the German forums but I don't speak german well enough to put together a search string.
Given Fozzie has also come out and said Null earns plenty enough isk, that reinforces the likelyhood that most of those bounties do come from Null.

Anyway, back to incursions and some fun maths.
Lets assume LP adds enough value to bring that average up to 10 Trillion per month for incursion income overall. Exact maths actually depends on the internal breakdown of VG's to HQ's from memory. And that all of this income is in high, we know for sure that low & null incursions do get run occasionally but we will assume that the percentage this adds to overall income is negligible.
And lets assume a 30 day month as an 'average' length month.
This means that there are 720 individual man hours in the month.

If we guess at a true average income of 100 Mil/Hour for an incursion pilot the following occurs.
10,000,000,000,000/100,000,000 = 100,000 Hours of income.
100,000/720 = 138(.88) pilots per hour supported.

Now I believe it's fair to say that Incursions are pretty much fully utilised with contests in HQ & VG's being common enough. And more people being involved would simply result in more contests and more pilots getting 0 income, rather than more fleets making full income.
So..... we have an activity that can at any one time support only 140 pilots give or take a few at 100 Mil/Hour. Unless Null & Low start packing out their incursions. This may be 500-700 pilots a day if we assume 6 hour play sessions which doesn't seem that unreasonable, or maybe as high as 1000 a day if we drop to 3 hour play sessions which is short.
Is it unreasonable for 1000 pilots who have mastered co-operation in a fleet, typically using deadspace fittings, pirate/T2 hulls, and are under a good FC, to make 100/Hour. These are not people solo farming, there is real risk even from the NPC's themselves let alone player intervention in the sites, even if we are just talking High sec.

If you find that number of players supported at that income unreasonable given the skills and co-operation involved, well, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.
However, the fun part about those numbers, if you claim 150/Hour income as the normal, those numbers drop to 600 pilots globally supported across an entire day. And under 100 pilots at any one time.

He does this so much, we should call it the Nevyn Auscent Deflection Syndrome (I just added the S because it makes the acronym "NADS").

The way it works is that you pretend that the numbers of people doing something that is unbalanced is important, and that if not enough people do it, it's not unbalanced. It's basically denying fact by conflating the specific issue with some other 'macro' level concern, in this case, it's the overall economy (of which incursion income is too small to hurt).

Despite having every opportunity to do so, Nevyn Auscent hasn't spent a single second actually testing the situation in game, his entire reason for posting is to defend high sec.