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Proposed Changes Empire Space and some supporting changes

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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#101 - 2015-04-26 01:36:28 UTC
The sound of "Oh **** gotta go don't let me die" accompanied by the sound of crying children/hysterical wife/barfing dog in the background is something everyone has head on teamspeak.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#102 - 2015-04-26 01:48:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
The sound of "Oh **** gotta go don't let me die" accompanied by the sound of crying children/hysterical wife/barfing dog in the background is something everyone has head on teamspeak.


A choice selection of examples I have heard:

"Be right back, my goddamned dog is on fire!"

"Gotta go, cops again"

"Oh ****, I forgot about the fire drill!"

*In the background* "Steve, if you don't get off that goddamned Playstation I am going to chop off your **** and feed it to you!"

Or the ever hilarious spectacle of someone who is playing the game in a two person dorm room in college, and his room mate is loudly and busily engaged in amorous activity with the newest random girl.

[edit: Anyway, we should get back on topic, since the OP is about wars, and EVE's combat requiring attention to be paid to it is most certainly not the problem.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2015-04-26 03:08:25 UTC
Vhelnik Cojoin wrote:
Vimsy,

Those situations are not what I am getting at. There are two separate issues, which tend to reinforce one another. One is specific to EvE, the other isn't.

The first issue is how people approach playing games, and I am no referring to what we in EvE consider playstyles (PvP, PvE, etc.) Many people, when they are playing games, are not in a position, where they can give the game 100% of their attention. I'm not talking about being AFK, but perhaps there are people around the player in meatspace, who may need some attention as well.

I at least cannot work effectively in any kind of PvP scenario, if I cannot give the game my full attention. And by effectively I mean that I won't have a high risk of loosing my ships due to apparent silly mistakes, get caught during a wardec while doing PvE etc.

Have a look of some of kil2 / CCP Rise' small gang PvP videos, which he made before he started working for CCP. He literally sits completely alone in what appears to be an attick room, wearing a headset with boom mike and all the while being completely transfixed by the monitor. Try doing this with your family around, it won't fly very often.

Curiously we just heard one example of this in this thread from a CODE. member, who cannot play PvP effectively due to having to look after a small child in meatspace.

Over time I have met *many* players i EvE, for whom this is a problem for one reason or another. This to a point, where people give up on PvE activities in null/low/WH space. There are a *lot* of nullsec/WH 'refugees' in HiSec.

I used to live in null, and never lost a ratting ship and it wasn't for lack of opportunity. Also I am fairly confident I could successfully run missions during a live wardec with Marmites and their colleagues, assuming I could fully concentrate on the game while doing so. Yet with the many hours I spend in EvE, I had to split my game time between PvE and PvP. Otherwise I would end up in serious trouble with people in meatspace.

This is the reason why for instance trying to tweak the profitability of HiSec/NPC corp member activities is pointless. It won't change anything, because to many 'good' HiSec players it is not a question of the ISK/risk ratio of a given activity, as some seem to believe. CCP has tried to move the population out of HiSec by tweaking the payout of especially mining and mission running. Nothing moved in the relative population densities.

If I log in with a mind to do some PvE, and find myself forced to go do X in a PvP scenario, before I can do PvE (at higher payout), then I will just log out again. Because trying for instance to keep up with dscan every 2-3 seconds is frequently not compatible with being on a friendly footing with my surroundings.

I will post the second reason tomorrow, and that one is perhaps even worse than this one.


This, and more. Alot of people in this sub seem to want to balance the game for players with ~5-10 alts and multiple screens/accounts. This has nothing to do with being "good" at the game. It simply has to do with being willing and able to devote an inordinate amount of time and real world money to the game.

The meta-game is all about alts. Yea, it's hard and dark and scary for the true solo player, but when you can immediately bring logi/ewar/extra DPS on grid while your links are running at a safe and you don't have to rely on relationships with real human players to do any of this, that's a huge advantage. No amount of "friendship" or corp support can match the effectiveness of having an entire gang on-call 24/7.

To be truly competitive at this game you have to invest in the game of alts meta. And if that isn't pay to win, I don't really know what else to call it.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#104 - 2015-04-26 03:18:46 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
It simply has to do with being willing and able to devote an inordinate amount of time and real world money to the game.


First you were yammering on about skillpoints, now you're claiming pay to win?

Gtfo.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Aoife Fraoch
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#105 - 2015-04-26 07:47:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Aoife Fraoch
One thing that I find interesting in this discussion whenever it turns up is the focus on punitive measures to shape user behaviour. Such as increasing NPC corp tax, or have wars follow users, and so on. The problem is that this approach has never worked. Never. Worked. They either have no impact or simply result in the users coming up with a creative solution undermining the intended effect

A few examples that I remember are:
- Move level 5 missions to low sec to get more people in low sec (...so everyone does lvl4 or incursions)
- Remove insurance from concord kills to mitigate ganking (...which was compesated for from other sources)
- Increase NPC corp tax to get more people into corps (...and it did, one person corps)

At the core of this or any other discussion about getting people to do something they would not have chosen to otherwise is that ultimately EVE is a game. The user can always not log in.

And this is the problem with war decs. Most of the punitive measures proposed to get players to play with other players ignore EVEs history of success in getting people to do something they don't want to and ignore the fact that if all else fails, they can just do something else. Because this is EVE this also includes station trading, playing on an alt or just sitting cloaked in local all day while they are at work.

With this in mind and starting from the premise that you can not force people to do anything in a game, because they can always just log off, here are my own thoughts. Mostly they are about incentives.

Player structures. This has been mentioned by a few people already and frankly it is a good idea. Personally I would have these accrue benefit over time. Also maybe it is worth stealing gated plexes from FW? If a corp wants to set up a structure but doesn't feel they are that hardcore yet, maybe they can chose a small on gated for just frigates?

Also have corps gradually drop from a concord imposed tax of 10% over time (maybe 3 moonths?) would discourage flipping, though I suspect instead you will just have people moving to another corp they are holding on an alt instead.

Making this an arguement based on what people 'should' do and then try to come up with ways to force them really isn't getting anywhere. Its probably better to think of it as a case of making it something they want to do. It won't turn every high sec corp into a PVP powerhouse, but more of them might try than before.

EDIT:
The reason to gate the structures would be to let the corp choose it's level of risk. They might be ok with burning through some frigates to defend something if they believe the fight might be a little fairer. And keeping the structure inplace might be reason enough to still be at risk in the rest of space.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#106 - 2015-04-26 09:17:26 UTC
Aoife Fraoch wrote:
One thing that I find interesting in this discussion whenever it turns up is the focus on punitive measures to shape user behaviour. Such as increasing NPC corp tax, or have wars follow users, and so on. The problem is that this approach has never worked. Never. Worked. They either have no impact or simply result in the users coming up with a creative solution undermining the intended effect

A few examples that I remember are:
- Move level 5 missions to low sec to get more people in low sec (...so everyone does lvl4 or incursions)
- Remove insurance from concord kills to mitigate ganking (...which was compesated for from other sources)
- Increase NPC corp tax to get more people into corps (...and it did, one person corps)

At the core of this or any other discussion about getting people to do something they would not have chosen to otherwise is that ultimately EVE is a game. The user can always not log in.

And this is the problem with war decs. Most of the punitive measures proposed to get players to play with other players ignore EVEs history of success in getting people to do something they don't want to and ignore the fact that if all else fails, they can just do something else. Because this is EVE this also includes station trading, playing on an alt or just sitting cloaked in local all day while they are at work.

With this in mind and starting from the premise that you can not force people to do anything in a game, because they can always just log off, here are my own thoughts. Mostly they are about incentives.

Player structures. This has been mentioned by a few people already and frankly it is a good idea. Personally I would have these accrue benefit over time. Also maybe it is worth stealing gated plexes from FW? If a corp wants to set up a structure but doesn't feel they are that hardcore yet, maybe they can chose a small on gated for just frigates?

Also have corps gradually drop from a concord imposed tax of 10% over time (maybe 3 moonths?) would discourage flipping, though I suspect instead you will just have people moving to another corp they are holding on an alt instead.

Making this an arguement based on what people 'should' do and then try to come up with ways to force them really isn't getting anywhere. Its probably better to think of it as a case of making it something they want to do. It won't turn every high sec corp into a PVP powerhouse, but more of them might try than before.

EDIT:
The reason to gate the structures would be to let the corp choose it's level of risk. They might be ok with burning through some frigates to defend something if they believe the fight might be a little fairer. And keeping the structure inplace might be reason enough to still be at risk in the rest of space.


Do highsec mercs even train frigates to V?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#107 - 2015-04-26 09:30:54 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

Do highsec mercs even train frigates to V?


Yes, of course, but shouldn't you be crying about how the skillpoint system is fundamentally unfair or something?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Mobadder Thworst
Doomheim
#108 - 2015-04-26 10:19:36 UTC
What if we dumped these crime watch rules so noobs could more easily dabble in PVP.

Let flippers go to noob training systems and expose newbros to fighting. Casual pvp exposes people to mechanics and tactics.

Then perhaps warfare wouldn't feel like such a rude wake up. Part of the problem is that the mercs are the only ones who have any idea how to fight.

Everyone else in high sec has no simple and controllable way to ry a few fights. I know someone is going to say "duels". Go ahead...

As long as high sec pvp is so hard to experience, the majority of Eve (who are in high sec) is going to view pvp as though it's not a legitimate part of the game. They'll just continue destroying rocks and the market.

Let them try to kill a flipper now and then... Most carebears in high sec would try that once in a while for a laugh, right?
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#109 - 2015-04-26 10:27:33 UTC
Aoife Fraoch wrote:
One thing that I find interesting in this discussion whenever it turns up is the focus on punitive measures to shape user behaviour. Such as increasing NPC corp tax, or have wars follow users, and so on. The problem is that this approach has never worked. Never. Worked. They either have no impact or simply result in the users coming up with a creative solution undermining the intended effect

A few examples that I remember are:
- Move level 5 missions to low sec to get more people in low sec (...so everyone does lvl4 or incursions)
- Remove insurance from concord kills to mitigate ganking (...which was compesated for from other sources)
- Increase NPC corp tax to get more people into corps (...and it did, one person corps)

At the core of this or any other discussion about getting people to do something they would not have chosen to otherwise is that ultimately EVE is a game. The user can always not log in.

And this is the problem with war decs. Most of the punitive measures proposed to get players to play with other players ignore EVEs history of success in getting people to do something they don't want to and ignore the fact that if all else fails, they can just do something else. Because this is EVE this also includes station trading, playing on an alt or just sitting cloaked in local all day while they are at work.

With this in mind and starting from the premise that you can not force people to do anything in a game, because they can always just log off, here are my own thoughts. Mostly they are about incentives.

Player structures. This has been mentioned by a few people already and frankly it is a good idea. Personally I would have these accrue benefit over time. Also maybe it is worth stealing gated plexes from FW? If a corp wants to set up a structure but doesn't feel they are that hardcore yet, maybe they can chose a small on gated for just frigates?

Also have corps gradually drop from a concord imposed tax of 10% over time (maybe 3 moonths?) would discourage flipping, though I suspect instead you will just have people moving to another corp they are holding on an alt instead.

Making this an arguement based on what people 'should' do and then try to come up with ways to force them really isn't getting anywhere. Its probably better to think of it as a case of making it something they want to do. It won't turn every high sec corp into a PVP powerhouse, but more of them might try than before.

EDIT:
The reason to gate the structures would be to let the corp choose it's level of risk. They might be ok with burning through some frigates to defend something if they believe the fight might be a little fairer. And keeping the structure inplace might be reason enough to still be at risk in the rest of space.


You certainly understand the issue, respect to you for that post.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Lyric Masters
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#110 - 2015-04-26 19:30:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyric Masters
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:


This, and more. Alot of people in this sub seem to want to balance the game for players with ~5-10 alts and multiple screens/accounts. This has nothing to do with being "good" at the game. It simply has to do with being willing and able to devote an inordinate amount of time and real world money to the game.

The meta-game is all about alts. Yea, it's hard and dark and scary for the true solo player, but when you can immediately bring logi/ewar/extra DPS on grid while your links are running at a safe and you don't have to rely on relationships with real human players to do any of this, that's a huge advantage. No amount of "friendship" or corp support can match the effectiveness of having an entire gang on-call 24/7.

To be truly competitive at this game you have to invest in the game of alts meta. And if that isn't pay to win, I don't really know what else to call it.


First, a bit of background. I just recently returned to the game and rerolled my setup completely upon my return after a 3.5 year hiatus.

Point A. Playing multiple accounts at the same time, whether it be the alt-tab method on one screen, or having an elite hardware setup with however many monitors you want, IS DIFFICULT, if you are not using methods that are outside of the EULA. For the longest time, I played multiple accounts on one large display (56" tv connected thru HDMi, love it.) I've only recently started using my laptop display as well to have two characters visible at the same time always. It definitely ramps up the difficulty. Regardless, please tell me any multiplayer game of any note where there can be hardware differences between the players and the player with the better hardware wouldn't have at least a slight advantage to start strictly because of said hardware?

Point B. Yes, people have alts, and sometimes a lot of them. I'm sorry, but if you can't afford to keep at least two accounts open in a game where you are able to pay your subscription in in-game credits, then having to play solo in EVE is probably the least of your problems and I recommend you contact your local social services office tomorrow as soon as they open, as this was posted on a Sunday.

C. I know great players who have many alts, and I know great players, some who you would most likely call "dominant" who have never logged in on another eveguy in their entire career in New Eden.

I feel more than qualified to respond to your post as I was a very solid player in the past, and have experienced the "new player experience" just in the past few months. At no time did I ever feel I NEEDED the alternate eveguys I have, I got them to do things quicker and more efficiently. I believe the game is far more balanced than it was before my hiatus, and was actually very pleasantly surprised by the strides the game made as a whole. Sure, I was disappointed in nerfs such as the Crimewatch silliness -- but as a whole it still feels like I feel it should. Eveguys who have been training for years should and do have distinct advantages overall, but it remains the same that I can still specialize my training to be on the level with that 10-year player in a certain area in a relatively short time. I could have very easily purchased a new Eveguy from the Bazaar, but didn't choose that route. It's still EVE, it is supposed to be challenging.

Only four letters left to say to you after your performance in this thread:

H.T.F.U.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#111 - 2015-04-27 03:23:14 UTC
Now people are done explaining how they feel that their child crying and other people having more free time and disposable income than them is somehow related to game balance can we continue?

I think it's pertinent to mention that post-inferno alliances lost quite a lot of value for both aggressors and defenders in wars.

Prior to being inferno being in a corporation as an aggressor meant you were limited to 3 wars and you had to pass a corporate vote prior to declaring war, but wars against other corporations were cheap (2 million isk). Alliances could declare unlimited wars and declare war without a vote but always had to pay 50 million as their base fee.

As an aggressor being a small group had benefits, as a defender being a member of an alliance had its benefits.

Presently there's no benefit to being in a small group as an aggressor because you have to pay just as much as the members of a 300 man alliance. As a defender you gain no benefit from being part of a large highsec alliance because the little guys that your alliance membership may have shielded you from before are not just line members of a large mercenary alliance.

Essentially the defenders have lost an incentive to be part of an alliance and the aggressors lost all incentive to not be part of an alliance. Subsequently we end up with the shift that we've seen from there regularly being 150-300 man general purpose highsec alliances to there instead being 150-300 man merc alliances.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2015-04-27 04:35:48 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

Do highsec mercs even train frigates to V?


Yes, of course, but shouldn't you be crying about how the skillpoint system is fundamentally unfair or something?


I never said it was unfair, I just take issue with people who fail to even consider SP disparity as a factor in combat.
Danalee
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#113 - 2015-04-27 05:02:58 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

Do highsec mercs even train frigates to V?


Yes, of course, but shouldn't you be crying about how the skillpoint system is fundamentally unfair or something?


I never said it was unfair, I just take issue with people who fail to even consider SP disparity as a factor in combat.


Eat dust buddy, you'll never catch me with my Frigates at lvl VII

D.

Bear

Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority

Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#114 - 2015-04-27 07:18:02 UTC
Lyric Masters wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:


This, and more. Alot of people in this sub seem to want to balance the game for players with ~5-10 alts and multiple screens/accounts. This has nothing to do with being "good" at the game. It simply has to do with being willing and able to devote an inordinate amount of time and real world money to the game.

The meta-game is all about alts. Yea, it's hard and dark and scary for the true solo player, but when you can immediately bring logi/ewar/extra DPS on grid while your links are running at a safe and you don't have to rely on relationships with real human players to do any of this, that's a huge advantage. No amount of "friendship" or corp support can match the effectiveness of having an entire gang on-call 24/7.

To be truly competitive at this game you have to invest in the game of alts meta. And if that isn't pay to win, I don't really know what else to call it.


First, a bit of background. I just recently returned to the game and rerolled my setup completely upon my return after a 3.5 year hiatus.

Point A. Playing multiple accounts at the same time, whether it be the alt-tab method on one screen, or having an elite hardware setup with however many monitors you want, IS DIFFICULT, if you are not using methods that are outside of the EULA. For the longest time, I played multiple accounts on one large display (56" tv connected thru HDMi, love it.) I've only recently started using my laptop display as well to have two characters visible at the same time always. It definitely ramps up the difficulty. Regardless, please tell me any multiplayer game of any note where there can be hardware differences between the players and the player with the better hardware wouldn't have at least a slight advantage to start strictly because of said hardware?

Point B. Yes, people have alts, and sometimes a lot of them. I'm sorry, but if you can't afford to keep at least two accounts open in a game where you are able to pay your subscription in in-game credits, then having to play solo in EVE is probably the least of your problems and I recommend you contact your local social services office tomorrow as soon as they open, as this was posted on a Sunday.

C. I know great players who have many alts, and I know great players, some who you would most likely call "dominant" who have never logged in on another eveguy in their entire career in New Eden.

I feel more than qualified to respond to your post as I was a very solid player in the past, and have experienced the "new player experience" just in the past few months. At no time did I ever feel I NEEDED the alternate eveguys I have, I got them to do things quicker and more efficiently. I believe the game is far more balanced than it was before my hiatus, and was actually very pleasantly surprised by the strides the game made as a whole. Sure, I was disappointed in nerfs such as the Crimewatch silliness -- but as a whole it still feels like I feel it should. Eveguys who have been training for years should and do have distinct advantages overall, but it remains the same that I can still specialize my training to be on the level with that 10-year player in a certain area in a relatively short time. I could have very easily purchased a new Eveguy from the Bazaar, but didn't choose that route. It's still EVE, it is supposed to be challenging.

Only four letters left to say to you after your performance in this thread:

H.T.F.U.


When I play a game I prefer it to be a contest of skill and strategy, not of who can pay for more accounts. I want to play against other human beings, not their bank account.

Multiboxing vs. one target requires zero effort for OGB and minimal effort for logi/ewar. You engage/tackle the enemy, warp your trump card to 50, turn on ewar or reps, win fight. Don't pretend that takes skill.

Sick and tired of hearing "HTFU" from people who won't undock for anything short of an easy gank.

Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#115 - 2015-04-27 07:34:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Noragen Neirfallas
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:


When I play a game I prefer it to be a contest of skill and strategy, not of who can pay for more accounts. I want to play against other human beings, not their bank account.

Multiboxing vs. one target requires zero effort for OGB and minimal effort for logi/ewar. You engage/tackle the enemy, warp your trump card to 50, turn on ewar or reps, win fight. Don't pretend that takes skill.

Sick and tired of hearing "HTFU" from people who won't undock for anything short of an easy gank.


Honestly dude you had fans here with your post a week ago. But you have just spent the last week moaning about how unfair it all is. Multi boxing is a thing and always will be a thing. If you don't like multi boxing find another game to play. Ganking is a thing and always will be a thing. If you don't like ganking find another game. I could go on but suffice it to say 90% of your whining isn't even on topic and the other 10% is still simply whining about the on topic instead of ideas to fix it. Well done on having a dozen posts and not contributing a single thing to this thread.

You were born crying but at some point you need to grow out of it.

CoolCool

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#116 - 2015-04-27 07:53:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Demerius Xenocratus
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:


Honestly dude you had fans here with your post a week ago. But you have just spent the last week moaning about how unfair it all is. Multi boxing is a thing and always will be a thing. If you don't like multi boxing find another game to play. Ganking is a thing and always will be a thing. If you don't like ganking find another game. I could go on but suffice it to say 90% of your whining isn't even on topic and the other 10% is still simply whining about the on topic instead of ideas to fix it. Well done on having a dozen posts and not contributing a single thing to this thread.

You were born crying but at some point you need to grow out of it.

CoolCool


I'm just being realistic. Every week there's a thread here by highsec pvp enthusiasts moaning about how the carebears won't fight them.

Well, they get curbstomped every time through mechanics they don't understand by people who have been playing for 10 years.

No amount of incentives tinkering is going to change that. It's a game, people don't have to play it. If you try to force them to play your way in an arena where you have a pretty substantial advantage, they'll just leave. It's just like talking to a brick wall.

Fighting mercs in highsec is generally not fun, for a host of aforementioned reasons. If you try to structure things so that people have no choice but to fight you, you're not gonna get the result you want I'm afraid.

I don't see how you fix wars when any attempt to take the fight to the aggressor ultimately devolves into a shitstorm of docking games and most people don't have an interest in that kind of fight.
Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#117 - 2015-04-27 07:58:53 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:

CryCryCryCryCryCryCry

fixed

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin
Lyric Masters
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#118 - 2015-04-27 17:41:27 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:


When I play a game I prefer it to be a contest of skill and strategy, not of who can pay for more accounts. I want to play against other human beings, not their bank account.

Multiboxing vs. one target requires zero effort for OGB and minimal effort for logi/ewar. You engage/tackle the enemy, warp your trump card to 50, turn on ewar or reps, win fight. Don't pretend that takes skill.

Sick and tired of hearing "HTFU" from people who won't undock for anything short of an easy gank.



I'm sick of hearing people whine about not wanting to pay their subscription when running three accounts monthly is less than the cost of dinner for two anywhere decent. I'm really sick of hearing this whine when you can pay for your subscription with ISK. The cost to run three accounts is around $1.75 a day. I'm sorry, but if you can't find seven quarters in the course of your day to enjoy your hobby, again, you have other issues that need to be examined. I say that in all seriousness, I'm not trying to troll you.

Now, the case may be that you are a teenager without disposable income. In that case, I feel for you a bit, but you could still easily afford an extra account even in this instance if you spent more time earning ISK and less time whining about how underprivilged you are on the forums.

There are no free hobbies in this world. Running three accounts is far less expensive than golf. Most decent courses you aren't getting on the course without $50, much less money for balls, tees, drinks and food, and anything you need to enjoy this basic hobby that transcends the globe. That cost is to enjoy maybe five hours out of the month. Want to play the next day? Yeah...same costs. Not to mention it's upfront investment on clubs that are at least several hundred dollars right to start even before you find out if you'll ever be successful or truly enjoy the game.

Do you see where I'm going with this? If you don't want to spend an extra monthly subscription cost (which would bring you up to six pilots at your disposal and the ability to play two pilots simultaneously) you really shouldn't make it our problem. The upfront cost to enjoy this hobby is extremely low, and the monthly cost is negligible.

Not to mention that the game is fantastic even on one account and there is nothing preventing you from being a dominant pilot without ever spending another penny.

To OP: I apologize for going so far off the course, but one thing that needs to be stricken from the debate is people having alts. This is not going to change, people are always going to have multiple accounts and alts. Nothing else needs to be said on this part of a highsec war debate, and I hope this poster will now actually contribute to an actual MECHANICS issues to help out issues of highsec warfare.
Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#119 - 2015-04-27 17:56:36 UTC
Lyric Masters wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:


When I play a game I prefer it to be a contest of skill and strategy, not of who can pay for more accounts. I want to play against other human beings, not their bank account.

Multiboxing vs. one target requires zero effort for OGB and minimal effort for logi/ewar. You engage/tackle the enemy, warp your trump card to 50, turn on ewar or reps, win fight. Don't pretend that takes skill.

Sick and tired of hearing "HTFU" from people who won't undock for anything short of an easy gank.



I'm sick of hearing people whine about not wanting to pay their subscription when running three accounts monthly is less than the cost of dinner for two anywhere decent. I'm really sick of hearing this whine when you can pay for your subscription with ISK. The cost to run three accounts is around $1.75 a day. I'm sorry, but if you can't find seven quarters in the course of your day to enjoy your hobby, again, you have other issues that need to be examined. I say that in all seriousness, I'm not trying to troll you.

Now, the case may be that you are a teenager without disposable income. In that case, I feel for you a bit, but you could still easily afford an extra account even in this instance if you spent more time earning ISK and less time whining about how underprivilged you are on the forums.

There are no free hobbies in this world. Running three accounts is far less expensive than golf. Most decent courses you aren't getting on the course without $50, much less money for balls, tees, drinks and food, and anything you need to enjoy this basic hobby that transcends the globe. That cost is to enjoy maybe five hours out of the month. Want to play the next day? Yeah...same costs. Not to mention it's upfront investment on clubs that are at least several hundred dollars right to start even before you find out if you'll ever be successful or truly enjoy the game.

Do you see where I'm going with this? If you don't want to spend an extra monthly subscription cost (which would bring you up to six pilots at your disposal and the ability to play two pilots simultaneously) you really shouldn't make it our problem. The upfront cost to enjoy this hobby is extremely low, and the monthly cost is negligible.

Not to mention that the game is fantastic even on one account and there is nothing preventing you from being a dominant pilot without ever spending another penny.

To OP: I apologize for going so far off the course, but one thing that needs to be stricken from the debate is people having alts. This is not going to change, people are always going to have multiple accounts and alts. Nothing else needs to be said on this part of a highsec war debate, and I hope this poster will now actually contribute to an actual MECHANICS issues to help out issues of highsec warfare.

Don't stress we had 4 good pages. I've got a draft of some of the ideas I've taken from this. I'll post it too the op and possibly post 4 when it's finished and see if we can get 1 last bout of discussion specifically on what I write then I may just copy paste it or ask it to be moved. Thanks tho you seem to have more patience left to explain things that have nothing to do with this Smile

CoolCool

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin
Lyric Masters
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#120 - 2015-04-27 17:57:08 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:


I'm just being realistic. Every week there's a thread here by highsec pvp enthusiasts moaning about how the carebears won't fight them.

Well, they get curbstomped every time through mechanics they don't understand by people who have been playing for 10 years.

No amount of incentives tinkering is going to change that. It's a game, people don't have to play it. If you try to force them to play your way in an arena where you have a pretty substantial advantage, they'll just leave. It's just like talking to a brick wall.

Fighting mercs in highsec is generally not fun, for a host of aforementioned reasons. If you try to structure things so that people have no choice but to fight you, you're not gonna get the result you want I'm afraid.

I don't see how you fix wars when any attempt to take the fight to the aggressor ultimately devolves into a shitstorm of docking games and most people don't have an interest in that kind of fight.


Part of being a "carebear" is dealing with player-controlled pirates. The only difference is that the pirates actually want you to explore MORE of EVE. They want the carebear to realize that this game has always been about player-versus-player interaction, with the PVE just being a reason to drive that interaction. 90% of all pirates will give you a GF and if you don't act like a toolbox, they will give you the information you need to prevent their attack in the future and allow you to protect yourself and LEARN MORE OF THE GAME.

If you are getting "curbstomped through mechanics you don't understand" -- LEARN THE MECHANICS. Shooting a rock and reprocessing it or selling it on the market are not the only mechanics you need to be aware of to be successful, and it is not anyone's duty to spoonfeed you basic game info you can damn well find yourself, and easily in fact.

Carebears are spoonfed quite enough... nearly every change made to the game since I stopped playing nearly 3.5 years ago before my return has been for the protection of highsec PVE players. If you don't find highsec warfare fun, you can easily avoid it. I remember when it used to take TIME to leave a corporation. Not this insta-drop corp even with roles and you are safe crap.

If you don't like the game, don't play, but as I told you in a previous post, I've just recently returned AND rerolled, and I'm not having any of the problems you're having with the characters I have in highsec. Not everyone is going to like the game, but the best thing about EVE is that if you aren't liking what you are doing in the game, you have every ability and chance to try to do something else in the universe that you DO enjoy.