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Crime & Punishment

 
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Bitter Vet - High Sec War Decs are Broken. Lets Talk :)

First post
Author
Valedictio
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#441 - 2015-04-23 20:15:38 UTC
Okay I'm back for my tuppence worth,

I can sympathise in some regards with the aggressor corps when small entities disband and reform thereby rendering a war with them meaningless, however have you thought that there may be a reason for it ?

I have minimal experience as an aggressor and a little experience with 1 man and sort of 1 man war decs ( til it was declared an exploit) very few large corps have war decced my empire toons and the ones that did I never saw hide nor hair of, (must have been the shotgun affect).

If you bear with me, I believe that eve and its culture has ruined the chance of a high sec empire alliance for a few reasons, the basic being the firm rule of 'never trust anyone'.

Pure PvE becomes boring (after a while, for a new player it is exciting and can be challenging and result in losses), that is a fact, I doubt anyone could seriously play for too long doing the same thing repeatedly, hence I vary my own playstyle with various accounts otherwise I would have left long ago, like so many of the RL friends I started with.

Currently I am rather inactive due to a boredom factor after leaving our last null home and the vast majority leaving with quotes of 'there is no challenge left' or 'its boring for me now', some of those being closed beta players with some serious assets.

I feel that there is no real reason for empire wars for the simple fact that aside from assets in space, there is simply nothing worthwhile to fight over, so if a small PvE corps is war decced by a PvP corps and feel they have no way to defeat them then it is simply a choice of 'do we bother' ? if it happens continuously then it becomes 'do we bother with this game'.

This entrenched view of 'this is a pew pew game, HTFU or GTFO' does nothing to educate or enlighten the average casual empire player, they shun contact with other players (Rule 1 Trust NOBODY), possibly like myself some will be earning isk for other activities, you do not know who is an alt or this that or the next, hence a complete lack of trust and no large corps/alliances forming. Stick your head over the parapet and it gets shot off.

It seems that the vast majority of players are risk adverse to loss, if you believe it is all down to 'carebear' empire dwellers then ask yourself one question, where did the term 'blueball' come from. It seems that the easy way with the least amount of disruption for small entities is to disband/reform and 'blueball' aggressors ?

When I first started you could chat to people in local, nowadays it is all smacktalk if there is anything at all, I am too RL old to be bothered with childish he said/she said garbage.

I love this game with all it's complexities, it's only problem lies in the attitude of the player, life is what you make it, if you are not willing to work for what you want, then you simply don't deserve it.

You want to pick on the little kid in the park, then expect him to try and run away and hide to avoid a beating, as they say HTFU or GTFO, whatever.

Some of you may just pick a bit here or there from this and attempt to elicit a response, tbh I couldn't really care.

and now for some more of the same from the Constructive Feedback Consortium.

Human Torch time and ..........'FLAME ON'

Darth Terona
Fancypants Inc
Pandemic Horde
#442 - 2015-04-24 00:57:01 UTC
Look op. Right after my nullsec stent I was hired to help train Amarr noobs to pvp in a newly formed corp

Soon after our numbers grew to the teens, marmite deced us.

Aside from the CEO, myself and one other, no one in my corp did any pvp before. I'm no military director, but I was able to throw together f1 fleets of noobs to combat the marmites. We flew cheap frigs and cruisers and won many engagements with my, at the time, limited pvp experience. In the end we did get our asses handed to us but won marmites respect. We where even offered a spot on their war machine not because we where good, but because we stood our ground and took the war for what it was. FUN!

Stand your ground. Fight with class, never trash local. Accept war as a part of eve. Everything in eve is pvp. From mining to marketing to planetary interaction. Every facet of this game has you competing with someone else

Throw together a fleet mr. Military director... Chuckles.! And defend your way of eve!
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#443 - 2015-04-24 01:51:52 UTC
GTA5 is pretty effective at making my entire alliance not play EVE. This is a problem experienced by everyone.
Mike Adoulin
Happys Happy Hamster Hunting Club
#444 - 2015-04-24 02:00:17 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
GTA5 is pretty effective at making my entire alliance not play EVE. This is a problem experienced by everyone.



Just wait until World of Warships goes into open beta.

*hops in his pimped out Kongo-class BB and starts shooting some Burning Love*

Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.

Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.

Vector Symian
0 Fear
#445 - 2015-04-24 05:09:08 UTC
Master Otard

we had relatively good success staying in npc corps and setting up a separate channel. They have the tax but the wardeccs are completely eradicated

if we had a major op we would simply link up to a slave corp do the deed and drop out...keeping the tax at 0 of course

it has worked but never stay in the same place...it is the nomad life for you unfortunately

(once they identify a spike in activity on the map they have a sniff around and set up shop if they like what they see)
Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#446 - 2015-04-24 07:01:28 UTC
Vector Symian wrote:
Master Otard

we had relatively good success staying in npc corps and setting up a separate channel. They have the tax but the wardeccs are completely eradicated

if we had a major op we would simply link up to a slave corp do the deed and drop out...keeping the tax at 0 of course

it has worked but never stay in the same place...it is the nomad life for you unfortunately

(once they identify a spike in activity on the map they have a sniff around and set up shop if they like what they see)

This is why npc corps need to have a much harsher tax affecting lp and mining yeilds not just isk and a new kind of corp 'Social corp' needs to happen that has restrictions like inability to affect the landscape by placing structures and what not as a trade off of not being decced needs to happen.

NPC corps are cancer.
That is all

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#447 - 2015-04-24 10:02:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:
Vector Symian wrote:
Master Otard

we had relatively good success staying in npc corps and setting up a separate channel. They have the tax but the wardeccs are completely eradicated

if we had a major op we would simply link up to a slave corp do the deed and drop out...keeping the tax at 0 of course

it has worked but never stay in the same place...it is the nomad life for you unfortunately

(once they identify a spike in activity on the map they have a sniff around and set up shop if they like what they see)

This is why npc corps need to have a much harsher tax affecting lp and mining yeilds not just isk and a new kind of corp 'Social corp' needs to happen that has restrictions like inability to affect the landscape by placing structures and what not as a trade off of not being decced needs to happen.

NPC corps are cancer.
That is all


The issue you have as a hisec operator is do you want to kill hisec off completely, new ores in null, a real advantage manufacturing in null, do you really want to see no one in hisec really doing indy and therefore no market? Do you want to see the market controlled by null power blocks and the impact that will have on your wallet?

At the moment I cannot see any hisec operation that could set up a structure which is entosis link size (a station basically) and expect to keep it for long.

I have read your posts in the other thread you started and can see you have some great ideas, but please step out side of your own self-interests and sit in the shoes of the people you go after and think it through and also look at the changes in the game. In fact I think Tora has done just that in how he is trying to change Marmite and all credit to him.

EDIT: I did not intend to post again in this thread as I just ended up with an infantile slanging match with Danalee, but thought that you might want to think about the issue of hisec as a whole in terms of what it has now turned into as Vector and Lucas described in their posts and why that happened.

EDIT2: Its not so much what it is now which is important, but how it could or will change with the new structures and how your alliance / corp or you fit into that.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#448 - 2015-04-24 11:11:35 UTC
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:
NPC corps are cancer.
That is all



I'm sure no-one uses NPC hauler pilots. Nope. Everyone's e-honor is pure here.

Or...eh...not Roll
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#449 - 2015-04-25 02:03:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
afkalt wrote:
Noragen Neirfallas wrote:
NPC corps are cancer.
That is all



I'm sure no-one uses NPC hauler pilots. Nope. Everyone's e-honor is pure here.

Or...eh...not Roll
lol true enough, I certainly use 3rd party haulers that use NPC alts to do the scutwork.

I think the more correct statement would be that some NPC corp members are cancer.

The cancer is the people that sit in them spouting the sociopath crap, as well as actively discouraging others from dipping their toes into lowsec, nullsec, wh's and other fun pursuits like crime etc.

On the flipside you have groups within the NPC corps that do the exact opposite, actively encouraging and organising people to dip their toes into anything and everything there is to do; I'd guess at a fair few of them actively recruiting for their mains corps too. The hard part is finding out about them, which is a shame and I feel CCP could do more to expose people to them; social corps may well be just the thing they need.

Used in the right way they can be a powerful tool.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Brian Damidge
Radar Contact.
#450 - 2015-05-31 13:09:00 UTC
I may be being ridiculously naive but the war dec fee is just a bribe for CONCORD to look the other way right?

If so, why can't the defender approach CONCORD and give them a little bit more to pay attention again?

Want to shoot someone in High sec? Pay the bribe.

Don't want the guys who bribed CONCORD to shoot you, drop a nice bag of isk on their front counter to not look the other way.

Seems pretty simple and uses an existing premise to do it.
Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#451 - 2015-05-31 13:21:14 UTC
Brian Damidge wrote:
I may be being ridiculously naive but the war dec fee is just a bribe for CONCORD to look the other way right?

If so, why can't the defender approach CONCORD and give them a little bit more to pay attention again?

Want to shoot someone in High sec? Pay the bribe.

Don't want the guys who bribed CONCORD to shoot you, drop a nice bag of isk on their front counter to not look the other way.

Seems pretty simple and uses an existing premise to do it.

3 things.
1 this is isk shield and raises the bar on wardec costs for both parties. Basically the so called new bro getting griefed out of the game wouldn't be able to afford this option. The only people who would benefit are the stupidly rich.

2 there is a thread suggesting this in f&I ATM that you could lend your support too and read the many reasons this wouldn't be a good thing.

3 isd moved this thread here to die because its got about a dozen relevant posts in the entire thing

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin

Carrie-Anne Moss
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#452 - 2015-05-31 14:22:05 UTC
Brian Damidge wrote:
I may be being ridiculously naive but the war dec fee is just a bribe for CONCORD to look the other way right?

If so, why can't the defender approach CONCORD and give them a little bit more to pay attention again?

Want to shoot someone in High sec? Pay the bribe.

Don't want the guys who bribed CONCORD to shoot you, drop a nice bag of isk on their front counter to not look the other way.

Seems pretty simple and uses an existing premise to do it.

The mafia would be extremely upset if the cops they bribed to look the other way suddenly started looking back their way cuz someone gave them some more money.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#453 - 2015-05-31 15:40:35 UTC
Fundamentally wardecs are broken because they try to force highsec players into PvP combat that they don't desire. Quite reasonably those folks avail themselves of mechanisms to avoid such combat, including NPC corps and throwaway one man corps. The better solution is to realize that you cannot force people to engage in in-game activities that they despise, and to do away with the whole war system.
Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#454 - 2015-05-31 16:16:41 UTC
Yeah, um. That's not gonna happen.

Wardec fees are one of those things that makes ISK actually go away.
Those merc alliances that literally make their living off of wars oftentimes dump billions of ISK into concord's pocket in a single week. There has to be some, even though paltry, counter to ISK being endlessly printed from npc bounties and whatnot.

The sploded ships that result from wardecs also increase demand for more ships and modules.
Wardecs may need work, but taking them away completely would not be good for the game.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#455 - 2015-05-31 17:16:24 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
Yeah, um. That's not gonna happen.

Wardec fees are one of those things that makes ISK actually go away.
Those merc alliances that literally make their living off of wars oftentimes dump billions of ISK into concord's pocket in a single week. There has to be some, even though paltry, counter to ISK being endlessly printed from npc bounties and whatnot.

The sploded ships that result from wardecs also increase demand for more ships and modules.
Wardecs may need work, but taking them away completely would not be good for the game.


I fail to see why isk going away is a good thing so long as rampant mining is swamping isk production and leading to widespread deflation.
Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#456 - 2015-05-31 17:52:33 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
Yeah, um. That's not gonna happen.

Wardec fees are one of those things that makes ISK actually go away.
Those merc alliances that literally make their living off of wars oftentimes dump billions of ISK into concord's pocket in a single week. There has to be some, even though paltry, counter to ISK being endlessly printed from npc bounties and whatnot.

The sploded ships that result from wardecs also increase demand for more ships and modules.
Wardecs may need work, but taking them away completely would not be good for the game.


I fail to see why isk going away is a good thing so long as rampant mining is swamping isk production and leading to widespread deflation.

Wow. Just wow

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin

Mobadder Thworst
Doomheim
#457 - 2015-05-31 18:41:10 UTC
I actually agree with the OP. However, I see it from the agressor side of the fence.

I think the massive pvp alliances are bad... And are a direct result of the war dec fee increase of a couple years ago.

Back then, first war was 2 mil, second was 4, third was 6 (all corp to corp, corp vs alliance was 50). Corps could only declare war on 3 opponents at a time. Alliances could do unlimited wars, but for escalating cost.

I'm sure CCP expected less war decs with increased prices and they did effectively dissolve the small war dec corps (typically 3 to 5 guys).

Sadly, because all those guys could no longer afford to high sec pew in small groups, the banded together to pool Isk for large quantities of war decs.

Can flipping was nerfed so hard that casual high sec PVP is nearly dead.... Which is destroying one of the best noob training opportunities.

I feel for the noobs of today. There are very few baiters now... Which means few opportunities to dabble in pvp.

If you are building a corp, the war decs are going to be against a large powerful alliance instead of a 3 or 5 person corp.

Back before the changes, pvp'ers in high sec got fights by looking weak... Which is why the corps were so small... You had to be small and fly small to prevent opponents from avoiding contact.

Now it's just brute force... If you have 30 people in a corp you should be ready to fight a 200 person pvp alliance.

I see this as the functional outcome of the new system. Personally, I think reversing grief watch and the elevated wardec costs would correct most of the issue.

The current system really isn't ideal for anyone.