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[April] Ore, Mineral and Nullsec Mining Anomaly Revamp

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Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#361 - 2015-04-20 02:00:58 UTC
Querns wrote:
Also, there's not enough ore for self-sufficiency in nullsec static belts.

Sure there is. It just depends on how you define "self-sufficiency".

If you define "self-sufficiency" as the ability to build an endless, ever-growing number of supercaps and/or T2 ships, then I'll agree that no place in EVE is self-sufficient.

But, that really isn't a good definition, particularly for a game that wants to encourage conflicts. Tthere *should* be a definite cap on resources, to ensure more conflicts over them - after all, the main reason we have conflict in RL is due to a finite amount of resources. Cut the number of moon goo souces in half - set them up to respawn in new locations every 3-6 months, and we'd see a lot more conflict in null... lol.

Querns wrote:
Hell, there is no arkonor in Deklein at all, and only 6 systems spawn Bistot.

Well, they certainly do exist somewhere in null, since ABC roids don't exist at all in high sec. Unless all of the megacyte and zydrine in high sec is coming from reprocessed meta modules only - in which case, null can source from the same reprocessed modules dropped by rats.

Querns wrote:
See some of my other posts for more debunking of this ridiculous idea that static belts will cut it for nullsec self-sufficiency.

No, thanks. I'm not saying that you don't have good arguments to support your view, but It is far too tedious to sort your worthwhile posts of substance from the posts which engage in idle trolling... ;)
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#362 - 2015-04-20 02:09:46 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
Actually, I think there is already sufficient ore in null sec for self-sufficiency. Has been for several years now. What there is NOT in null sec, is any good reason to spend the time/effort to mine it all. Plenty of players in null sec, just not many miners - I've rarely seen an empty belt in null sec, while they are a common sight in high sec. As others have stated, a null sec player can make much more ISK/hr doing many other things, and with less risk.

So, the only real reason why high sec produces more trit and other low-end minerals is because there are simply more players mining in high sec - the reward/risk payoff is comparable to, or better than, other high sec activities. Doesn't really matter how you tweak the high:null ore/mineral ratios, you'll still find players mining all day in high sec.

Perhaps, then, to get more mining done in null sec, what really needs to happen is for all other null sec sources of ISK farming to be nerfed, across the board, until they have a comparable or lower ISK/hr payoff than null sec mining. This includes reducing the rewards on belt ratting, mission running, exploration, etc.

Sure, it would be unpopular, at first, and the tears would flow, along with the screams (nothing new about that, but, hey, adapt or go play WoW, right?). But, I don't think null sec self-sufficiency is ever going to be reached by just continuing to tweak the minerals in and processing of null sec ore, or by trying to link sov in some way to mining. Self-sufficiency requires more players to mine. More players mining in null sec will only happen if there isn't anything easier and more profitable for them to do to farm ISK.

No matter which side of the argument you are on this type of thinking is awful. Would it be okay to cut your paycheck by 50% if we buffed the paycheck of your neighbor since you live in the same general area...NO!

Especially if your neighbor has a completely different job than yours. Yes there may be some crossover in terms of income from each yet they remain different jobs being done by different people.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#363 - 2015-04-20 02:14:51 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Most long term players actually have significant gaps in their play time. Lots of people I know of have just dropped the game for months when it gets boring, then come pick it back up later when a new release makes things a bit more interesting.

No argument, but the null sec players who fly caps/supercaps *do* come back, even when they get mad over this change or that change to the game.

Note: This isn't true of the high sec players, who don't have any investment in training time for flying a cap or supercap. When they leave, they usually stay gone.

Anhenka wrote:
Fighting over space that literally makes less than highsec mission running? No thanks. If space suddenly was worth less than highsec?

I never said null sec space should be worth less than high sec space. I only suggested that null sec mining would increase, if other sources of ISK farming in null sec were signficantly reduced in reward/risk ratio.

And, yes, high-sec L4 mission running has long been in need of a major nerf. The rewards are completely out of proportion with the risk (none).
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#364 - 2015-04-20 02:26:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Sizeof Void
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
No matter which side of the argument you are on this type of thinking is awful. Would it be okay to cut your paycheck by 50% if we buffed the paycheck of your neighbor since you live in the same general area...NO!

Especially if your neighbor has a completely different job than yours. Yes there may be some crossover in terms of income from each yet they remain different jobs being done by different people.

Actually, this RL argument doesn't apply. This is a game. Switching "jobs" is something you can do as often as you want, whenever you play.

Whether I'm PVP'ing solo, in small gangs, or in fleets... or running missions, mining, trading, manufacturing, or whatever - there really isn't that much difference. I sit in front of the computer, type on the keyboard, move my mouse, click the buttons, and drink a beer (cheers, mates!).

Essentially, the only real difference is the reward/risk per hour ratio. What makes the most ISK for the least risk in the shortest amount of time? If CCP wants the game to be balanced, then this ratio needs to be the same for all activities, particularly in each region of space (ie. null, low, high or WH), otherwise players simply won't do certain activities.
GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#365 - 2015-04-20 02:29:53 UTC
All this Hisecks high horse crying is getting tiresome. Sad

There is great synergy in Eve - http://i.imgur.com/4jVAs9Z.jpg

It's just that you have to view Hi+Lowsecks as one unit, which is Empire space. Smile

Yes, level 4s and Incursions are still skewing risk-reward Eden-wide. That can of worms won't ever be fixed, however. Sad

...And they all crave one thing - ISK. ¤

[WTS] ME10 / TE20 BPOs from Battleships/Cruisers to Fighters, Carriers, Triage/Siege, XL modules & Cap Components
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#366 - 2015-04-20 02:39:07 UTC
Querns wrote:
Supercaps, maybe, but caps? Caps are a dime a dozen. No one is going to stay subbed just because they have a podunk 2b isk carrier farting around in their hangar.

So, says the super-rich player... lol.

And, bad math on your part, too... shame, shame, particularly for a member of the Goonswarm Warfare Economic Cabal.

At 800M per PLEX, and $10-15 USD per month sub cost, this means that a 2B ISK carrier would be worth $25-37.50 USD each - or $300-450 per dozen. (assuming that my math is correct; I'm sadly not a member of any economic group)
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#367 - 2015-04-20 02:46:59 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
Querns wrote:
Also, there's not enough ore for self-sufficiency in nullsec static belts.

Sure there is. It just depends on how you define "self-sufficiency".

If you define "self-sufficiency" as the ability to build an endless, ever-growing number of supercaps and/or T2 ships, then I'll agree that no place in EVE is self-sufficient.

Sure, if you move the goalposts far enough down the line, you can claim self-sufficiency for an extremely small number of ships. However, if the goal is to reduce nullsec's reliance on Jump Freighters as the primary method of obtaining materiel, then static belts just don't cut it. Strangely enough, this is the stated goal of the changeset.

Sizeof Void wrote:

But, that really isn't a good definition, particularly for a game that wants to encourage conflicts. Tthere *should* be a definite cap on resources, to ensure more conflicts over them - after all, the main reason we have conflict in RL is due to a finite amount of resources. Cut the number of moon goo souces in half - set them up to respawn in new locations every 3-6 months, and we'd see a lot more conflict in null... lol.

Do this, and the price of T2 will explode upwards basically without limit. If you want an example of how this looks, log on to the Serenity server.

T2 moongoo is already in finite quantities; only 100 units spawn per moon per hour. It's not like we can just thrust our grubbers elbow-deep into a moon and waddle away with as much as we want.

Sizeof Void wrote:

Well, they certainly do exist somewhere in null, since ABC roids don't exist at all in high sec. Unless all of the megacyte and zydrine in high sec is coming from reprocessed meta modules only - in which case, null can source from the same reprocessed modules dropped by rats.


ABC roids currently come from ore prospecting sites. The problem is that there are too many of them in any given site compared to the lowends required. Note that the changeset is significantly reducing the ABC count while boosting mid/lowend bearing ores up significantly.

The dirty secret is that highsec has never been self-sufficient when it comes to mining. The day 1 design was to make it so you had to venture out to less safe areas of space to get the full complement of minerals needed to build things. The only difference between now and post-patch is that nullsec might be able to get a moderate amount of lowends locally instead of having to JF it up from highsec (with attendant fuel/effort costs.)

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#368 - 2015-04-20 02:48:48 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
Querns wrote:
Supercaps, maybe, but caps? Caps are a dime a dozen. No one is going to stay subbed just because they have a podunk 2b isk carrier farting around in their hangar.

So, says the super-rich player... lol.

And, bad math on your part, too... shame, shame, particularly for a member of the Goonswarm Warfare Economic Cabal.

At 800M per PLEX, and $10-15 USD per month sub cost, this means that a 2B ISK carrier would be worth $25-37.50 USD each - or $300-450 per dozen. (assuming that my math is correct; I'm sadly not a member of any economic group)

The only people who assign real-world value to spaceships are journalists, and that is only so people who have no idea of the scope of Eve: Online can relate.

This sort of comparison among people who actually play and understand this game is extremely misleading.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#369 - 2015-04-20 02:59:36 UTC
Querns wrote:
The only people who assign real-world value to spaceships are journalists, and that is only so people who have no idea of the scope of Eve: Online can relate.

Damn... ok, I fess up. I am really a freelancer for the WSJ and The Guardian. And, I only play Hello Kitty Island Adventure.
Daioh Azu
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#370 - 2015-04-20 04:39:18 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Increasing Zydrine and Megacyte consumption in manufacturing.
This is a fairly simple change, but it will have some significant effects. As we said on the o7 show, we are doubling the Zydrine and Megacyte consumption of almost all blueprints in the game. This will bring the universe-wide consumption of Zydrine and Megacyte closer to some of the original designs for overall mineral consumption, and will provide a very significant boost to Nullsec (including wormhole) and to a lesser extent Lowsec mining.

While I 'm glad to see someone finally understanding the Zydrine and Megacyte content is what supports the value of Nullsec ores, doubling the demand will be a short term boost to Nullsec mining at best. Why? Vincent Athena says it best.
Vincent Athena wrote:
You mine ALL the ore in the anomaly so you can get another anomaly.

Please understand that. It has been distorting the mineral supply in the game for years. Null miners DO NOT get to choose what ore they mine, they are spoon fed what to mine by game mechanics.

Before drone compounds and mining anomalies the supply of Zydrine and Megacyte was limited to whatever would be mined in Nullsec belts, excluding rat loot of course, The limited supply sustained high values for both minerals because they were the manufacturing bottlenecks.

Drone compounds and spawn chaining opened the spigots for both minerals and mining anomalies ripped off the handles. While Highsec miners tend to only mine what is the most valuable from what is available, Nullsec miners will mine even the least valuable ores just to get to the supremely valuable ones.

Doubling the demand will put upward pressure on Zydrine and Megacyte temporarily, but as long as Nullsec miners can keep the spigots open by spawning new anomalies they will continue to overproduce. Zydrine and Megacyte will not maintain their value until they return to being the production bottleneck.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#371 - 2015-04-20 04:52:11 UTC
Jeez, I spend the weekend drinking my liver away in vegas and this thread goes to ****

I wouldn't mind CCP reducing the ark and bist in anomalies even further, making cherry picking belts and random anomaly spawns to be more valuable. I haven't finished analyzing this numbers on this, but we're already looking to be in a good spot after the change.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#372 - 2015-04-20 04:58:52 UTC
Daioh Azu wrote:
Doubling the demand will put upward pressure on Zydrine and Megacyte temporarily, but as long as Nullsec miners can keep the spigots open by spawning new anomalies they will continue to overproduce. Zydrine and Megacyte will not maintain their value until they return to being the production bottleneck.


This is incorrect-

There is only a huge surplus of zyd/mega right now because null miners are forced to mine through a TON of high end rocks to recycle the sites. With the new changes, significantly less arkonor/bistot/crokite will be available- in stripping out these belts, null miners will obtain a much more balanced distribution of ore rather than 1000% more high ends than they could ever use.

We'll see low end minerals decrease in price a bit as the supply kicks up in null, but those markets won't tank because of alliance taxes, transport cost, etc. Expect to see the compressed ore market take off even further because of the more mineral-specific types of ores that will be available.

Production costs of the usual t1 basket shouldn't change by much- the build costs are going to shift via cheaper lowends and more expensive high ends, but they should balance out in the majority of cases.
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#373 - 2015-04-20 11:48:32 UTC
LTC Vuvovich wrote:
Okay this is definitely whats up... our little 'sandbox' universe has become a box of 'quicksand'...

: )


More like an old-fashioned kitty litter sandbox with a diarrhea section in a north-east corner.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#374 - 2015-04-20 13:21:04 UTC
You only have yourselves to blame, to be honest.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Tazinas2
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#375 - 2015-04-20 15:37:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Tazinas2
Im no expert in the high end market, but if average daily usage in jita for example zydrine of 20-25 million units per day and that usage DOUBLES, now there is a need for 40-50 million units per day, I would think there may be a supply issue in he long run. Same thing with megacyte. Just my two pennies.

EDIT: And maybe in the not-so long run, those are big numbers to fill even for null.
ShesAForumAlt
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#376 - 2015-04-20 16:08:05 UTC
Hey Fozzie - a question I haven't seen addressed - is the reduction in the Industrial Index Decay rate still happening? And if so, is that included with these mining changes for April?

This is totally my main. 
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#377 - 2015-04-20 17:02:25 UTC
GankYou wrote:
Yes, level 4s and Incursions are still skewing risk-reward Eden-wide. That can of worms won't ever be fixed, however. Sad


No, they don't.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#378 - 2015-04-20 17:08:00 UTC  |  Edited by: GankYou
elitatwo wrote:
GankYou wrote:
Yes, level 4s and Incursions are still skewing risk-reward Eden-wide. That can of worms won't ever be fixed, however. Sad


No, they don't.


Do you comfort yourself at night with such thoughts? Smile

http://twostep4csm.blogspot.com/2012/03/its-econmony-stupid.html

Hisec Level 4s and Incursions take a substantial, if not the majority, part of the above.

...And they all crave one thing - ISK. ¤

[WTS] ME10 / TE20 BPOs from Battleships/Cruisers to Fighters, Carriers, Triage/Siege, XL modules & Cap Components
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#379 - 2015-04-20 17:20:26 UTC
GankYou wrote:
http://twostep4csm.blogspot.com/2012/03/its-econmony-stupid.html

Hisec Level 4s and Incursions take a substantial, if not the majority, part of the above.


And 78472828129030281 yolo-swag supers and carriers ratting in 929375 anomalies per null-system have nothing to do with it.

But our first of his name, guardian or the realms, defender of the two kingdoms and king of nullsec only wants all his members to have 2532 capitals per account and fly nothing below.

If they would just stop building them like candy, they would have ample of supply of ships to fly around.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#380 - 2015-04-20 17:34:34 UTC  |  Edited by: GankYou
elitatwo wrote:
GankYou wrote:
http://twostep4csm.blogspot.com/2012/03/its-econmony-stupid.html

Hisec Level 4s and Incursions take a substantial, if not the majority, part of the above.


And 78472828129030281 yolo-swag supers and carriers ratting in 929375 anomalies per null-system have nothing to do with it.


I said substantial. Smile

Doesn't take away from the fact that Level 4s and Incursions in Empire space have triple the income of mining in the same space, while also being equals to Nullsec incomes involving either missions or ratting.

...And they all crave one thing - ISK. ¤

[WTS] ME10 / TE20 BPOs from Battleships/Cruisers to Fighters, Carriers, Triage/Siege, XL modules & Cap Components