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[New structures] Item safety mechanics on structure destruction

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Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#241 - 2015-04-15 16:31:18 UTC
You know, having operated in W-space on and off for almost 2 years (on other characters) I am shocked by the number of people who are attached to their stuff yet live in structures created and operated by players, and in an area I once considered as dangerous as wormholes. I am struck by the fact all these guys are, in fact, pansies, who all want NPC station level safety from their stuff in non-NPC held space. The icing on that cake was the mentioning by someone of an SoE bailout for your lost stuff should your last bastion fall.

I get to say "HTFU" now.

How many of you are logged out in your most expensive ship, in a safe, with a cloak on, far enough from a celestial to not be on D-scan, with everything else potentially being written off as a complete loss? How many of you keep your fittings and ships and other necessities to the bare bones of what you need, not your entire character's life savings out in the middle of null?

My POS can disappear in a weekend. If I don't get the warning in time to intervene with a potential invader, all I own in that system, other than what I'm flying, is lost. No insurance payout, no compensation, no SoE bailout cause I wasn't there... just gone. This has been the life for me for some time now. I have taken steps to prevent losses from being complete. I have alts ready to do an emergency evacuation of my more valuable ships not currently flown should system control stay in enemy hands. Even if my attackers turn the POS fishbowl into a ****-cage, most of my value will still escape. I will burn the rest to spite the invaders if I can't get enough help to repel them in time. I believe in scorched planet warfare, and will do my best to deny a prize to my attackers. That said, I am ready to have to walk away and lose it all, thats part of (I thought) EVE. That's also part of why I like living where I do. (I can do the same to someone else, and that's also a thrill.)

So, to reiterate, you null guys need to HTFU. I am seriously disappointed with the volume of complaints here, and the dilettante mentality thats coming through in these posts.
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#242 - 2015-04-16 08:51:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakan MacTrew
Valenthe de Celine wrote:
How many of you are logged out in your most expensive ship, in a safe, with a cloak on, far enough from a celestial to not be on D-scan, with everything else potentially being written off as a complete loss? How many of you keep your fittings and ships and other necessities to the bare bones of what you need, not your entire character's life savings out in the middle of null?


A counter point to this is:

"How many Wormholers have to worry about being invaded by litterally thousands of hostiles who could potentially commit hundreds of capials to a fight at a moments notice?"

Wormholes are a totally different animal to any other part of space. You can't compare the two, they have their own Pro's, Con's benefits and vulnerabilities.

The point of Wormholes was always to be inhospitable, living there should have been 'temporary' at best. The purpose of Sov Null is to be invested in, to be taken and held. Sov, by default and design, is something you commit to. Commiting yourself to the task of taking and holding a System or a station, only to have all your assets there destroyed, (and realisitically, whatever was left could well be completely inaccessible for an unknown period of time - potentially forever,) that just seems more troubple than its worth.

If you could lose a ship, that's avoidable by pilot action, simply don't put it in harms way. POS's are not generally lived out of in K-space exactly because of their vulnerability. Blowing up Stations, potentially worth insanely high amounts, (YAO-XJ has over 1.1 Trillion isk in sell orders alone, not to mention how much hardware the residents have stashed in their hangers,) is not the nearly the same as blowing up a POS in a Wormhole. I know you guys are filthy space rich, but it doesn't come close.

Let's say that Goons have triple, if not quadruple, the hardware docked up that they have on the market in that station. Who wouldn't jump in a ship and fly clear across the whole of new eden to whore on a 5 Trillion isk Killmail?
Count the zero's with me:

5,000,000,000,000.00

When you look at it like that, nomadic power blocs like PL, (and I assume NC. are trying to emulate them - "#livingtheDREAM",) will almost certainly use data like THIS as a check list for what stations they want to blap for the new uber-killmails.

When null stations become destructable, I'll have already pulled all my stuff out to lowsec.

Friends
Eryn Velasquez
#243 - 2015-04-16 18:00:02 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
.................

When null stations become destructable, I'll have already pulled all my stuff out to lowsec.


You're absolutely right - in the moment when this happens without any possibility to save the stuff, my nullsec industry will shut down completely and be relocated.

_“A man's freedom consists in his being able to do whatever he wills, but that he should not, by any human power, be forced to do what is against his will.” ― Jean-Jacques Rousseau _
SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#244 - 2015-04-16 18:22:08 UTC
Valenthe de Celine wrote:
How many of you are logged out in your most expensive ship, in a safe, with a cloak on, far enough from a celestial to not be on D-scan, with everything else potentially being written off as a complete loss?


Can you log out with a cloak on? I know you can't safe-log with a cloak on...

/troll off

I've played Eve as a combat line member for many years in many different environments (though I will admit living in wormholes was by far the shortest I did). I appreciate the lifestyle, for sure.

But on the other hand, apart from my Eve 'career', I do like to have a nice collection of goodies. Rare ships, modules, stuff given out by the dev's...limited edition stuff. It's nice to have a stash of these somewhere and know they cannot be taken or destroyed.
Anthar Thebess
#245 - 2015-04-17 10:19:55 UTC
NPC stations not destroyable both in NPC space and Sov space.
This will create new important points all across eve - it will prohibit from deadzoning some of the regions - by destroying all infrastructure and leaving space unclaimed.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

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Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#246 - 2015-04-17 15:59:44 UTC
SFM Hobb3s wrote:
Valenthe de Celine wrote:
How many of you are logged out in your most expensive ship, in a safe, with a cloak on, far enough from a celestial to not be on D-scan, with everything else potentially being written off as a complete loss?


Can you log out with a cloak on? I know you can't safe-log with a cloak on...

/troll off

I've played Eve as a combat line member for many years in many different environments (though I will admit living in wormholes was by far the shortest I did). I appreciate the lifestyle, for sure.

But on the other hand, apart from my Eve 'career', I do like to have a nice collection of goodies. Rare ships, modules, stuff given out by the dev's...limited edition stuff. It's nice to have a stash of these somewhere and know they cannot be taken or destroyed.

Excuse me, I meant to say installed as opposed to running. If you have to failtroll so hard to try to rebut a point, perhaps grammar and spelling are next?
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#247 - 2015-04-17 16:15:55 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
[...] Who wouldn't jump in a ship and fly clear across the whole of new eden to ***** on a 5 Trillion isk Killmail?
Count the zero's with me:

5,000,000,000,000.00

When you look at it like that, nomadic power blocs like PL, (and I assume NC. are trying to emulate them - "#livingtheDREAM",) will almost certainly use data like THIS as a check list for what stations they want to blap for the new uber-killmails.

When null stations become destructable, I'll have already pulled all my stuff out to lowsec.


Wow. I never saw such a great advert for joining up with a nullsec corp before! But in all seriousness, that is exactly the kind of issue that should be brought up here, from both sides of the fight.

If people know ahead of time that stations are destructible, that means industry is going to shift heavily. If people know those modules and collections are in danger of being lost, time to evac them into an NPC station for safety. Its not like preparations can't be done in the wake of whatever direction these decisions go. The static and immovable powers that be of Nullsec may no longer be able to sit there and know that a station will remain in their control for years to come, or even months, and maybe even weeks isn't definite. Having the knowledge that a base of operations could be wiped out means changes might happen. Change is good, or at least that was what all the WHers were told when these changes started rolling out half a year ago. Nullsec is just starting to feel what that might be like for them.

As to the 5 trillion ISK figure, even if that is accurate, how much of that was directed at supercap production? How useful are supercaps even going to be in the new meta? Will titans get their AoE DD beam of death back? Who knows? Because capitals are changing their roles as the new Entosis warfare magical hacking beams take their place, are we even looking at a game of blowing up stations, or just handing them back and forth between alliances? I never saw destruction as the goal of that new stuff, but it might be possible instead of the passing back and forth to simply erase those structures from existence, but thats not really been focused on much.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#248 - 2015-04-17 16:53:50 UTC
There are too many stations in null. It's too empire-ish. Player stations should be destructible. Player assets should be at risk.

If you're a null group that can't handle that, feel free to take and hold Delve and live in it's NPC built stations. The fact that a player can build something that can never be destroyed in a sandbox MMO is silly to begin with. Anyone have a count of the current number of player built stations presently in eve? How many null systems currently don't have a non destructible station. It's just crazy.

Player built stations was a reasonable idea by CCP that has gone too far. Like force projection, non destructible stations need to go. Let's put the mean and lean back in null living.

Until player built stations become destructible claiming null should get higher rewards due to higher risk is just common hypocracy.
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#249 - 2015-04-17 17:01:38 UTC
Valenthe de Celine wrote:
As to the 5 trillion ISK figure, even if that is accurate, how much of that was directed at supercap production? How useful are supercaps even going to be in the new meta? Will titans get their AoE DD beam of death back? Who knows? Because capitals are changing their roles as the new Entosis warfare magical hacking beams take their place, are we even looking at a game of blowing up stations, or just handing them back and forth between alliances? I never saw destruction as the goal of that new stuff, but it might be possible instead of the passing back and forth to simply erase those structures from existence, but thats not really been focused on much.


Of that 5T figure, I estimate a minimal amount of it being for super cap production, given that its inside a station and not in a POS with a CSAA. If you look at the 1.1T on the market, most of it is sub cap stuff.

Destruction is ALWAYS the goal in EVE. It's part of the cycle:

Aquire, Create, Destroy.
Rince, repeat.

Also, show me one major change to EVE in the last 6 years that has not been manipulated in some way by major power blocs. The same will go with this.

I have reservations about station destruction, but I agree that it is something that needs to happen. My issue is with the amount of destruction that entails and how far reaching the effects are. (Also, who is most likely to be in a position to dish out the most detruction while preventing the destruction of their own assets.)

Friends
Arctic Estidal
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#250 - 2015-04-18 01:42:13 UTC
Valenthe de Celine wrote:
As to the 5 trillion ISK figure, even if that is accurate, how much of that was directed at supercap production? How useful are supercaps even going to be in the new meta? Will titans get their AoE DD beam of death back? Who knows? Because capitals are changing their roles as the new Entosis warfare magical hacking beams take their place, are we even looking at a game of blowing up stations, or just handing them back and forth between alliances? I never saw destruction as the goal of that new stuff, but it might be possible instead of the passing back and forth to simply erase those structures from existence, but thats not really been focused on much.


This is hilarious.

The $1.1 trillion on sell orders and potential $5 trillion in items has nothing to do with super caps. You can't fit them in a station and you cannot sell them on the market. This is all sub cap items, ammo etc.

People are already shutting down super cap construction in null sec, even capital construction is being reconsidered. Just the current sov changes are making everything riskier to manufacture in a pos in null sec, and you think destroying stations won't have an impact.

The reason alliances and coalitions, blue everyone in an area, is because that is the only way you can setup some sort of protection to your very experience, capital and super capital construction operations. The length of time it takes for the manufacturing cycle to complete, puts these assets at significant risk during this period.

The new sov, is going to make capture mechanics of sov, quicker. So the risk has increased significantly, while the reward has reduced due to the changes and unbalanced state of capitals and super capitals.

If an alliance invests billions in structures, upgrades and activity, there MUST be a signficant advantage to defence. An attacker who has done nothing, should be significantly disadvantaged.

The proposed mechanic is going to provide a bonus to the defender by making the capture for the defender quicker than the attacker but up to 4x. This is a good start, but the only element that impacts this bonus is activity.

What about the investment in the structures, super capital construction, pos's etc. This also must provide defensive bonuses.
Alia Ravenswing
DARK HAT
#251 - 2015-04-19 19:01:06 UTC
This is fantastic. I have long wanted all these features.

The only thing I don't like is how some destroyed items are some how protected by magic, preventing anybody other than the original owner from salvaging them.

My entire reason for launching an attack, may be to get the items that may be in the salvage.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#252 - 2015-04-19 19:42:19 UTC
Alia Ravenswing wrote:
This is fantastic. I have long wanted all these features.

The only thing I don't like is how some destroyed items are some how protected by magic, preventing anybody other than the original owner from salvaging them.

My entire reason for launching an attack, may be to get the items that may be in the salvage.

The problem is, there wouldnt be much to get, since the owner wont risk it as much as he would under some safety.
Anthar Thebess
#253 - 2015-04-20 09:32:32 UTC
Each region have NPC build station.
I hope no one in CCP thinks about making them destructible (yet they might be damaged).

Make those stations gathering points for assets located in a region.
If some of your structure dies - all your assets are moved to this station.

They can be bought off by paying 0.5% off theirs value.

Like i stated before , make those station un-destroyable , but at the same time give the possibility for attacker to damage them to the point no one can dock or use them - and even more you need to rebuild them to the point you can get access to assets stored in them.

We already have the graphics ready , as on DED's / missions you can find destroyed stations.

We need to be fair.
This is not new start but big change in in game rules.

We don't have the possibility for all players to have clean start.
We have big and organized groups that will simply abuse mechanics connected to station destruction.
If you can get % of the assets stored in a station - they will just circle all around eve killing station after station - i don't say it is bad, i only state that if CCP is willing to allow this , we need to have first 1 simple button :
[MOVE ALL MY ASSETS TO THIS STATION]

Sorry but moving stuff for next 3 months that i acquired all around the eve while playing this game for a years is not something i consider fun, intend or expect to do.

I have friends that don't play eve , they return form time to time checking if the game changed in they way they like it - and now what they need to do?
Resub accounts and for the next months try to evac stuff from stations all around the eve?

Recoverable stuff from containers that expire when you login to game?
Who will return to eve just to have 2 or 3 hundred of cans crying "take me home or i die".
This is not something easy to do , and for sure nothing that will persuade someone to return.
I think CCP can be 100% sure that people will not return to the gate , because they have so many assets , and they will loose them all when they return ( or instead of having fun they will spend weeks of moving their stuff using cloacky hauler )


Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Nostonica
Holy order of eb.
#254 - 2015-04-20 11:25:47 UTC
Can You imagine if lost items(location & item list) could be sold like killrights, new profession Treasure Hunter.
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#255 - 2015-04-20 12:10:06 UTC
CCP want more people in null.
by destroying stations / all their assets, your forcing people to keep all their assets in npc stations and either stick with a carrier or not bother will null.

unlike wh's, theres nothing limiting people from taking 250 dreads and destroying every single pos in a region in the space of a few hours.

announce destructible stations, and you will see Mass exodus from null. ive been in null 6 years, and I wouldn't stay without em. hell id probably just play starcitizen instead.

would their be insurance on stations? and their upgrades....

simplest change to null would be to allow multiple stations in the same system. this would make some alliance put all their eggs in one basket
Vorll Minaaran
Centre Of Attention
#256 - 2015-04-20 12:13:43 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Each region have NPC build station.
I hope no one in CCP thinks about making them destructible (yet they might be damaged).


I wouldnt be so sure about it. As we saw in the trailers and the evolving storyline, the capsuleers're slowly growing stronger than Empires.
It would be logical at some point, to be able to destroy/conquer ie. the FW lowsec or later even the highsec NPC stations. How knows?

So this "Item safety mechanics" could affect anyone in the near or far future, be HS mission runner, WH resident or anyone.
This topic shouldnt take lightly as nullbear crying.
knowsitall
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#257 - 2015-04-21 16:25:11 UTC
My 2 cents

Not sure what is the best options are but I would like the following use cases considered

1) As a person that destroyed a structure i deserve a reward beyond a kill mail.

2) As a person that stored items in a structure, that structure being destroyed I should have some influence over what i lose.

3) As a person that stored items in a structure, that structure being destroyed I should be able to securely pay another player to retrieve my stuff.

4) As a person that stored items in a now destroyed structure I should be able to get my stuff even if I don't log on for months.


My justification for above

1) Make destroying structures profitable to players that do it as well for leadership strategic reasons.

2) I think without this you will see certain items never going into a structure. Same reasoning locking down BPOs in corp hangars was added.

3) Extension to the hauling profession.

4) Many people have very good real life reasons to not log in for months. Eg military get posted for 6 months.


My suggestions

1) I like the idea of everything "in transit" being lootable. I think this should include silos and stuff, Only place that should be secure is a corp/personal hangar. Only once a player has manually interacted/moved it to a hangar it should it become safe. ie delivery of build job, delivers to a hangar in the manufacturing area, only when a player physically goes to the structure and moves it to secure storage is it not lootable. Want an easy life and do everything remotely you risk more.

2) I like some of the ideas of some type of insurance for this, but not with isk insurance, the item is guaranteed to be safe at a cost.

3) Easiest way to do this is to make the assets courier contractible.

4) The items are not even in game, just a journal entry, allow the player to "start" the retrieval that spawns it back into the game, then they can have a limited time to retrieve. I know this can be used to store stuff by destroying your own structures, but even once you spawn them you still have to actually go and retrieve them.

But this post is less about my suggestions and more about rasing the use cases

KIA
Anthar Thebess
#258 - 2015-04-23 13:22:30 UTC
Valenthe de Celine wrote:
You know, having operated in W-space on and off for almost 2 years (on other characters) I am shocked by the number of people who are attached to their stuff yet live in structures created and operated by players, and in an area I once considered as dangerous as wormholes. I am struck by the fact all these guys are, in fact, pansies, who all want NPC station level safety from their stuff in non-NPC held space. The icing on that cake was the mentioning by someone of an SoE bailout for your lost stuff should your last bastion fall.

I get to say "HTFU" now.

How many of you are logged out in your most expensive ship, in a safe, with a cloak on, far enough from a celestial to not be on D-scan, with everything else potentially being written off as a complete loss? How many of you keep your fittings and ships and other necessities to the bare bones of what you need, not your entire character's life savings out in the middle of null?

My POS can disappear in a weekend. If I don't get the warning in time to intervene with a potential invader, all I own in that system, other than what I'm flying, is lost. No insurance payout, no compensation, no SoE bailout cause I wasn't there... just gone. This has been the life for me for some time now. I have taken steps to prevent losses from being complete. I have alts ready to do an emergency evacuation of my more valuable ships not currently flown should system control stay in enemy hands. Even if my attackers turn the POS fishbowl into a ****-cage, most of my value will still escape. I will burn the rest to spite the invaders if I can't get enough help to repel them in time. I believe in scorched planet warfare, and will do my best to deny a prize to my attackers. That said, I am ready to have to walk away and lose it all, thats part of (I thought) EVE. That's also part of why I like living where I do. (I can do the same to someone else, and that's also a thrill.)

So, to reiterate, you null guys need to HTFU. I am seriously disappointed with the volume of complaints here, and the dilettante mentality thats coming through in these posts.


Simply you agreed, and like this kind of game experience thats why you moved to wormholes.
I agree that we have to many stations in the game, thats why for example i suggest to make only NPC build stations in SOV space indestructible , while at the same time give ability for all playing people to move their stuff from other sov stations to secure locations.
Additionally give the same ability to all not subscribed players.
I have frew dozens of freighters of stuff sitting in NPC space in NPC station , multiple capitals - and i would never obtained so much stuff ( sometimes worthless but BIG) if under any conditions this station could be destructible.

I also don't want to spend weeks in moving stuff because CCP is changing base game mechanic i play game this game for fun.


Now as other stuff , eve must have stations accessible by all , and safe.
Without this smaller and new organizations will just die out.
Best way to kill small group - wait for them to move most of their assets , and then burn this place without allowing them to evacuate any thing.

Those are 2 very important issues that CCP must face before moving forward.

Again perfect solution for me :
1. All NPC stations are indestructible ( no mater where they are located now )
2. Players ability to move their stuff from all sov outposts to NPC space using some automated script. This station must be in 0.1 or lower system. Yes it can be in still in sov , but it MUST be NPC made. ( clean start for every one ) stuff from unsubscribed people goes to redeeming system as a single can per station
3. All player made outposts can be destroyed after this.
Mechanic is simple :
- you need to be the owner od the station , and disable station safety , 7 day countdown starts
- when the count down reaches 0 , you can drop tons of supers on it and grind it down
- after destruction of outposts you get 65% of materials used for its construction ( including all upgrades )
- station wreck becomes beacon for the next 3 months ( stations will have people assets that put them there under new rules)
- during this 3 months you can still dock in this station and pull your stuff out. You CANNOT leave something or log out in station , and you are "auto ejected" from station every 5-10minutes , and you can redock after next 10 minutes, lets say that this is docking timer on a station wreck.
- during this 3 months system owner can rebuild this station to level 0 by delivering enough materials.
- if during this 3 months no one will try to rebuild this station , wreck explodes taking all remaining stuff to hell :)

Every one happy

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Memphis Baas
#259 - 2015-04-23 19:38:39 UTC
One of the reasons why people play this game as opposed to other MMO's is the fact that players can affect the map. Ultimately, we want to shape nullsec however we see fit, and the "too many stations in nullsec" indicates, to me at least, that the majority of people want null to look like highsec.

Also interesting the recent statistic that 75% of pilots are in high-sec.

Obviously HTFU will have an impact on the accounts bottom line, with this particular change.

And it doesn't look like everyone is in agreement about what should be done. So my second suggestion in this thread is this:

Rather than implementing the "final version" of the station death mechanic, CCP should plan on implementing SEVERAL "save your stuff" scenarios, and just hit us with the one they think will appease the current nullsec population (safe or not, CCP's call). Then let us adjust for 6 months and plan on switching to the next (harsher) "save your stuff" system after that. Then let us adjust again. Then go on to the next harsher one, and so on until they see evidence that everyone's abandoning nullsec and it's a deserted wasteland or whatever.

Point being, the safety of our stuff is a big enough issue that I don't think we'll cope with the shock of a sudden change to a full HTFU system.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#260 - 2015-04-24 01:38:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Anthar Thebess wrote:

Every one happy

Except for that guy on a six month military deployment who comes back to find all his stuff blown up.
All the people away for a fortnight who now have to deal with the cloaky campers and the constant ejection to try and get all their stuff back.
And all the people who have to grind it down.

Item Safety is a huge deal, and it does need to be 'perfect' to allow station destruction to happen, otherwise people simply won't move assets out into Null. And we want valuable things to be moved to Null as that makes for valuable things getting blown up at various stages of the process.
Additionally item safety means players even in low & high sec may move out of NPC stations into their own structures, which then puts more assets in space (in the form of structures) for War Decs to affect.

Obviously I'm in favour of things 'in use' such as the structures, fittings currently on the structures, and currently ongoing jobs in the structures such as research & manufacturing being 'loot' potentially at normal 50% destruction ratios.
But things not 'in use' but sitting in a hanger or mooring need to be safe.