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[April] Ore, Mineral and Nullsec Mining Anomaly Revamp

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Decaneos
Casalt Corp
CAStabouts
#221 - 2015-04-16 13:25:32 UTC
Querns wrote:
Henry Plantgenet wrote:
NPC nullsec areas should have at least as good ores as 0.1.
apparently CCP thinks differently.

I would suggest simply moving inside the region you are in, honestly.

According to dotlan, some crokite spawns in Syndicate, primarily in the systems around S-U (honored be thy name; S-U is where we will finally go to die.)

Ore spawns are roughly dependent on truesec. Outer Ring, in particular, has some amazing truesec pockets, and spawns both bistot AND arkonor in the best system.


Think about what your saying tho, crokite spawns in very few systems in syndicate and will still only give zydrine with no access still to megacite, despite this they are still doubling the about needed for manufacturing.

To be honest tho as most systems in syndicate have only ores available in 0.4 they would need to balance whats actually in these belts rather than adjust the values of the ores.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#222 - 2015-04-16 13:32:33 UTC
Decaneos wrote:
Querns wrote:
Henry Plantgenet wrote:
NPC nullsec areas should have at least as good ores as 0.1.
apparently CCP thinks differently.

I would suggest simply moving inside the region you are in, honestly.

According to dotlan, some crokite spawns in Syndicate, primarily in the systems around S-U (honored be thy name; S-U is where we will finally go to die.)

Ore spawns are roughly dependent on truesec. Outer Ring, in particular, has some amazing truesec pockets, and spawns both bistot AND arkonor in the best system.


Think about what your saying tho, crokite spawns in very few systems in syndicate and will still only give zydrine with no access still to megacite, despite this they are still doubling the about needed for manufacturing.

To be honest tho as most systems in syndicate have only ores available in 0.4 they would need to balance whats actually in these belts rather than adjust the values of the ores.

I found your problem -- trying to mine exact ratios of minerals to build things is probably one of the worst economic bargains in Eve. You are deliberately wasting your own time just to make the numbers line up. Instead, mine the most lucrative thing you can, then sell your excess for cash, and use the cash to buy the minerals you lack. Freight is cheap and syndicate is very close to empire shipping lanes.

Remember, money can be traded for goods and services.

Also, realize that syndicate is kind of a craphole. Its truesec simply isn't good enough to spawn the minerals you want. Consider moving, or using the money trick above. Conquerable sov regions like Providence and Pure Blind suffer similar problems due to their average truesec being unfavorably compared to a medical waste dumpster.

Hell, Deklein can't even spawn arkonor in its static belts at all, ever.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#223 - 2015-04-16 13:35:10 UTC
Yes. I once came into a bike shop to get a tyre puncture cured, but the gentleman at the counter said that it is more cost-effective to source and replace the tube completely.

True relevant storie. vOv

...And they all crave one thing - ISK. ¤

[WTS] ME10 / TE20 BPOs from Battleships/Cruisers to Fighters, Carriers, Triage/Siege, XL modules & Cap Components
Decaneos
Casalt Corp
CAStabouts
#224 - 2015-04-16 13:38:08 UTC
Firvain wrote:
T3 miner sounds awesome? what will it have more mining power? So making it the best ship to mine and lowering all other ships mining potential coz more minerals coming in while demand stays the same means prices will drop..


You could make it super miner, or you could make dictor nullified cloaky, or combat barge! but not all at the same time ofc, you would have to make that choice as you do with t3 cruisers fitting. thats how i would see them anyways.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#225 - 2015-04-16 13:38:45 UTC
GankYou wrote:
Yes. I once came into a bike shop to get a tyre puncture cured, but the gentleman at the counter said that it is more cost-effective to source and replace the tube completely.

True relevant storie. vOv

Your metaphor is bad, and has nothing to do with anything being talked about in the thread at all.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Decaneos
Casalt Corp
CAStabouts
#226 - 2015-04-16 13:39:52 UTC
Querns wrote:
Decaneos wrote:
Querns wrote:
Henry Plantgenet wrote:
NPC nullsec areas should have at least as good ores as 0.1.
apparently CCP thinks differently.

I would suggest simply moving inside the region you are in, honestly.

According to dotlan, some crokite spawns in Syndicate, primarily in the systems around S-U (honored be thy name; S-U is where we will finally go to die.)

Ore spawns are roughly dependent on truesec. Outer Ring, in particular, has some amazing truesec pockets, and spawns both bistot AND arkonor in the best system.


Think about what your saying tho, crokite spawns in very few systems in syndicate and will still only give zydrine with no access still to megacite, despite this they are still doubling the about needed for manufacturing.

To be honest tho as most systems in syndicate have only ores available in 0.4 they would need to balance whats actually in these belts rather than adjust the values of the ores.

I found your problem -- trying to mine exact ratios of minerals to build things is probably one of the worst economic bargains in Eve. You are deliberately wasting your own time just to make the numbers line up. Instead, mine the most lucrative thing you can, then sell your excess for cash, and use the cash to buy the minerals you lack. Freight is cheap and syndicate is very close to empire shipping lanes.

Remember, money can be traded for goods and services.

Also, realize that syndicate is kind of a craphole. Its truesec simply isn't good enough to spawn the minerals you want. Consider moving, or using the money trick above. Conquerable sov regions like Providence and Pure Blind suffer similar problems due to their average truesec being unfavorably compared to a medical waste dumpster.

Hell, Deklein can't even spawn arkonor in its static belts at all, ever.


Maybe when the new changes come in and everythings not got goon goo all over it making it sticky and nasty to touch ;)
GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#227 - 2015-04-16 13:42:10 UTC  |  Edited by: GankYou
It's a good story, though. Sad

Does anyone have any boot, or two, on the pulse of Lowsec mining? Zydrine content went up in all three ores, but it is not enough to get people out there en masse.

Adding more Nocx is warranted I think.

...And they all crave one thing - ISK. ¤

[WTS] ME10 / TE20 BPOs from Battleships/Cruisers to Fighters, Carriers, Triage/Siege, XL modules & Cap Components
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#228 - 2015-04-16 13:42:18 UTC
Decaneos wrote:
Maybe when the new changes come in and everythings not got goon goo all over it making it sticky and nasty to touch ;)

The funny thing about eve is that most of it has this criteria applied to it. I suggest carrying a blacklight wherever you go.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Darkblad
Doomheim
#229 - 2015-04-16 14:23:59 UTC
Updated/created several sheets, charts and overviews to the new quantities (which are reported to be on Sisi now):

Old, New quantities, change of quantities
Market values of compressed/reprocessed (with adjustable yield) ores
Volume, ISK value and "hulk hours" for the iHub sites
(empire) "Roid Grid" with mineral quantities in tooltips.

NPE – ISD – RIP
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#230 - 2015-04-16 14:25:33 UTC
CCP Fozzie -- would you be willing to divulge the specific counts of individual asteroids inside the ore prospecting sites?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Null Infinity
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#231 - 2015-04-16 14:34:32 UTC
Make miners chasing asteroids, so hunters will have to chace miners as well. Now they sit still. Comet mining for the win! At least give it a try before you ruin fragile economy of EVE by messing up blueprints...

New mining menthods: interactive mining and comet mining
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#232 - 2015-04-16 14:50:18 UTC
Milla Goodpussy wrote:
Aya Nova wrote:
All these changes only address one side (and the less important one of) of why null mining isn't happening.

Mining as it is, is a very uninteractive activity. You need a bunch of people sitting in a belt for hours, who can do nothing but drag ore from their bay. At the same time you need someone to clear the rats (who gets to do nothing for ~30min, then be active for 2) and if you plan to defend from PvP enemies, you need a sizable gang on standby (which is supremely boring).

The suggestion brought by others to make ore sites (in null only) require scanning is a great one.

Secondly the exhumers (or at least 1-2 of them or a new class of mining ships) need to be redesigned with the idea of nullsec defensive combat. This doesn't just mean lots of tank, because a helpless ship with lots of tank will just get ground down eventually. They need to actually be able to protect themselves, something like bonuses and slots to allow fitting of undersized weapons (or RLMLs) that would allow a pack of exhumers to not be a pushover for a smaller number of inities or a torp bomber drop. For example adding a max 3 fitted to strip miners, and adding turret/launcher highs, more mids and bonusing small weapons on the hull, but reducing warp speed to make them undesirable offensively.

Another idea would be to gate the ore production through availability not time to harvest, much like exploration sites. Make it an intense, high ISK/hr activity where it makes sense for combat and mining players to work together in a group over a short span with high rewards.


how the hell do you expect mining to be exciting.. what you want them to pvp the damn rocks? good grief go find a new home already.



Do....do y....do you read before you post?

If you read before you post, you might avoid the embarrassment of writing such drivel.

To Aya, that's an excellent idea. The best I've ever read regarding mining. I've mined a total of probably 5km3 in my Eve career, but I love the idea of certain mining ships being able to defend themselves from light threats. Rapidly increasing the speed of highly desired ore while being under heavy NPC or player fire would be very, very fun for the industrial / combat players both.

CCP wants mining to be boring though, I think. Either way, a change such as this is not something they will ever consider; Like overhauling PvE in Eve, it's too much work.
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#233 - 2015-04-16 15:01:38 UTC
Firvain wrote:
T3 miner sounds awesome? what will it have more mining power? So making it the best ship to mine and lowering all other ships mining potential coz more minerals coming in while demand stays the same means prices will drop..

I did not say it sounds awesome, I said that a lot of people moaning about is a symptom of current barges being unviable, and people are looking for a viable one.

Querns wrote:
A skiff can have 90k EHP, before bonuses.

Also, enumerate your enemies and scout. These are the tools nullsec uses; quit being too lazy to use them.

So destroyer would have to reload once while Skiff dies.

The second part is so completely unrelated to the topic that I'd question the state of mind of person who wrote it, if only he weren't a gewn.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#234 - 2015-04-16 15:03:00 UTC
Darkblad wrote:
Updated/created several sheets, charts and overviews to the new quantities (which are reported to be on Sisi now):

Old, New quantities, change of quantities


Sweet, sweet Mexallon. Sweet, sweet Pyerite. CoolCool

...And they all crave one thing - ISK. ¤

[WTS] ME10 / TE20 BPOs from Battleships/Cruisers to Fighters, Carriers, Triage/Siege, XL modules & Cap Components
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#235 - 2015-04-16 15:24:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Soldarius
After inputting the new values, many of the 5 and 10% variant mineral values will be fractional. Will these be rounded up, down, or nearest whole number? The last set of changes with Crius had the values all rounded up, which I think is also appropriate here, otherwise small values of certain minerals will result in literally no increased content.

This is especially noticable with Jaspet's Zydrine content, since it has only 8 Zydrine per batch. +5% = only .4 units, and +10% is only .8 units, both of which round up to 9 units.

Also, please don't forget to adjust compressed ores to match. Otherwise someone will take advantage of the discrepancy.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#236 - 2015-04-16 16:00:02 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
So destroyer would have to reload once while Skiff dies.

not before concord shows up. Also maybe deploying combat drones would help if you are so inclined.

Basil Pupkin wrote:
The second part is so completely unrelated to the topic that I'd question the state of mind of person who wrote it, if only he weren't a gewn.

Its absolutely related. Its part of the safety tools at disposal for miners.

But, then again, I'm talking to someone who thinks mining in anything lower than .7 is too dangerous for any decent mining.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#237 - 2015-04-16 16:34:22 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:

Querns wrote:
A skiff can have 90k EHP, before bonuses.

Also, enumerate your enemies and scout. These are the tools nullsec uses; quit being too lazy to use them.

So destroyer would have to reload once while Skiff dies.

The second part is so completely unrelated to the topic that I'd question the state of mind of person who wrote it, if only he weren't a gewn.

Nah -- you're complaining about suicide ganks, when the tools to evade and dissuade a suicide gank are within a player's grasp, if they weren't too lazy to use them. Nullsec relies on these concepts to carve out small measures of safety in our home systems, and people constantly decry nullsec as "safer than highsec." If these tools enable this "safety," surely highsec can use the very same tools and combine them with literal perfect attention, instapopping NPC police to drape themselves in a safety shawl so coruscating, so perfect, that ship loss would be unheard of.

However, this does require collaborating with the people around you, which may be a little tough for an area of space practically defined by its antisocial behavior.

Regarding your destroyer hyperbole, let's play my favorite game -- crushing your uninformed opinion with math.

Here's a typical suicide gank catalyst: http://i.imgur.com/wz9ddBT.jpg
tl;dl: 627 DPS heated at all 5s.

Now, an omnitanked skiff has 91k EHP before shield bonuses. Dividing 91000 by 627 equals 145 seconds for a lone catalyst to destroy a skiff. Given that the worst-case concord response time is 19 seconds, I'm guessing a skiff will survive a suicide gank pretty easily.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Makari Aeron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#238 - 2015-04-16 17:20:19 UTC
Unsure how I feel about the Mercoxit reduction. That seems like it's going to greatly affect all T2 production but time will tell i suppose. I always found it tedious to mine to begin with and you require quite a bit if yo're going to make anything substantial in any moderate quantity. I kinda expected about 25-50% more mercoxit in the null belts since that's really the only place you can get it.

CCP RedDawn: Ugly people are just playing life on HARD mode. Personally, I'm playing on an INFERNO difficulty.

CCP Goliath: I often believe that the best way to get something done is to shout at the person trying to help you. http://goo.gl/PKGDP
belliar
Church Support Group
Brothers of Tangra
#239 - 2015-04-16 17:40:37 UTC  |  Edited by: belliar
hi, apart from all the discussions yay or nay.

I would like to contribute my expierence from nullsec mining, without speculating how it will be with the new changes.

I run about a squad of miners, for about 6 months now in nullsec, ive never been killed.
Why? intel channel, and not afk. Regards to should we have biggest reward in nullsec mining?
Becus its more dangerous.. thats quite relative and for every ccp feature we have a player solution.

When we mine, its always in anomalies, becus of the quanitity. For this reason hostiles also always warp to the anomalies.
Theres never any suprise.. or work.. warp at 0 to collosal, enourmous, large and tackle somebody or move to next system.

If we empty out a mining anomaly like the collosal, it instantly respawns. Making it a full-time proffesion where we can be very lazy and flip the same anomaly several times a day.

We never spend time in the normal ore belts, that surround the planets. Why do we still have those if they are not competitive compared to anomalies? Especially in nullsec.

When i was in a highsec corp we would pick a few systems and mine out the belts there from an entire system and move to the next. In nullsec its lazy mode, easy money. And the talk about more danger with the backing of an alliance is non-existant unless u live in catch or some other warzone.

So thx for all the fish.. thx for making nullsec miners even more richer, but u should approach this differently.
Introduce limits and involve planet ore belts more imho.
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#240 - 2015-04-16 18:13:48 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:
one 10 days old "special" individual in a destroyer can bring halt to all mining in a whole constellation for as long as he wants.


Step 1) Fly a skiff
Step 2) Orbit your can


1) Unviable ship. No yield, no extra meaningful tank compared to T1 variant. Takes a goon to be bad at mining...
2) You can only have cans in blue donut, otherwise you're just inviting "special" individuals.

"sure, it is trivially easy to be perfectly safe, but in order to be perfectly safe i would have to give up a smidgen of yield which, as a highsec bot-aspirant, i cannot conceive of"

if you want perfect safety being willing to pay for it

also protip: you don't have to put ore in the can

my god, i've mined once, a decade ago, and i know infinitely more on the subject than you do