These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[April] Ore, Mineral and Nullsec Mining Anomaly Revamp

First post First post First post
Author
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#181 - 2015-04-16 03:40:55 UTC
umah wrote:
To be honest, I don't see this changing anything at all.

Since the system is closed, everything from ore to product will just readjust in price to make it the same slog as its always been.

The industry problems in null sec have nothing to do with mining.

Its based on a political/military equation, not economics. The sov holders don't and never have used the space they hold for anything except good fights over moon goo (which instantly goes to Hi Sec)

I don't see that changing, frankly, industry sucks in 0.0 because you lose everything to the first frigate that drops on you. The risk /reward equation just doesn't work for industry in 0.0.

Then there is the problem of RMT

The only time 0.0 industry ever worked was in Drone regions when NPCs dropped refinable loot. When that was nerfed over RMT concerns, industry dried up, and Drone regions became worthless wasteland. With that nerf, CCP made it clear that industry in 0.0 was not something they wanted, because it made drone regions too lucrative.

If 0.0 becomes good industry ground again, then RMT comes back, so they are in a box.


hahahahahhahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahaha








no.
GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#182 - 2015-04-16 03:43:42 UTC
Yoloswag Zydrine mafia in the House. Cool

Good changes, gib more Mexallon pls.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#183 - 2015-04-16 04:12:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
CCP Fozzie wrote:


    Arkonor:
  • Tritanium: 22000 +15095
  • Mexallon: 2500 +1222
  • Megacyte: 320 +90
  • -Zydrine removed-


    Bistot:
  • Pyerite: 12000 -4572
  • Zydrine: 450 +214
  • Megacyte: 100 -18

  • Crokite:
  • Tritanium: 21000 +8
  • Nocxium: 760 +485
  • Zydrine: 135 -232

  • Dark Ochre:
  • Tritanium: 10000 +1196
  • Isogen: 1600 Isogen added
  • Nocxium: 120 -53
  • -Zydrine removed-

    Gneiss:
  • Pyerite: 2200 Pyerite added
  • Mexallon: 2400 +1122
  • Isogen: 300 +58
  • -Zydrine removed-
    -Tritanium removed-


    Spodumain:
  • Tritanium: 56000 +16779
  • Pyerite: 12050 +7078
  • Mexallon: 2100 Mexallon added
  • Isogen: 450 Isogen added
  • -Megacyte removed-

    Mercoxit:
  • Morphite: 300 +7

  • Hedbergite:
  • Pyerite: 1000 +919
  • Isogen: 200 +4
  • Nocxium: 100 +2
  • Zydrine: 19 +10

  • Hemorphite:
  • Tritanium: 2200 +2020
  • Isogen: 100 +41
  • Nocxium: 120 +2
  • Zydrine: 15 +7
  • -Pyerite removed-
    -Mexallon removed-


    Jaspet:
  • Mexallon: 350 +206
  • Nocxium: 75 +3
  • Zydrine: 8 +5
  • -Tritanium removed-
    -Pyerite removed-




For the lazy
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#184 - 2015-04-16 04:32:10 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:

This change will deplete nullsec need for highsec ore our incomes will drop.


Not completely, we'd still have to import certain minerals.

Quote:
NOTHING else in the game needs to change except the proposed changes for our incomes to drop.


Yes, indeed your income could drop somewhat.

Quote:
I am NOT asking for my ISK / hr to go up, find any place I asked for that. Im asking for it not to go down.


Your saving grace is the coming capital ship rebalance - If demand stays at current levels, you shouldn't see a large decrease to your income; if not...

Oh, well.

Besides, people used to mine when Trit/Pyerite/Mex were 3.8 / 7 / 32 ISK p/u respectively. Blink


And when people were mining ore at those prices PLEX cost 500mil not 800mil, so what point are you making?

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#185 - 2015-04-16 04:36:01 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:

What I'm saying is that highsec mining is already a modest to low income activity and cannot afford to lose more ISK / hr to nullsec.

Btw, even if my mining ship were absolutely invulnerable to any and all attack and interference i would still be making modest to low ISK / hr.
Risk vs reward, Yes! Using this mantra to strip highsec miners of anything resembling fair ISK / hr, NO!


That is the issue of Incursions and LVL4s having skewed rewards - but that is a whole can of worms.

No changes to highsec mining will take place without either 1) Completely killing Tech 1 production; 2) Completely reviewing T1 input costs.

TL;DR Would have to lower all required T1 inputs, lower ore yields/mineral compositions of said ores across the whole of New Eden -> then you could see your ISK/hr go up in Hisec.

But why would we do that. P


This is a discussion about mining and the proposed changes to it, please stay on topic.

This change will deplete nullsec need for highsec ore our incomes will drop. NOTHING else in the game needs to change except the proposed changes for our incomes to drop.

I am NOT asking for my ISK / hr to go up, find any place I asked for that. Im asking for it not to go down.

So, we should just leave null with a heavy dependence on empire ores? Rather than encouraging more null pilots to put more isk down on assets in null?


Should we leave highsec industrials at the mercy of nullsec, while removing their dependence on us?

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#186 - 2015-04-16 04:39:38 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Should we leave highsec industrials at the mercy of nullsec, while removing their dependence on us?


Yes, because giving nullsec the ability to produce anything without having to import ore completely removes our dependence on highsec. Meanwhile, the ability for us to mine ore will completely crush highsec, making it a barren wasteland with nothing to do there.

Roll
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#187 - 2015-04-16 04:59:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:

What I'm saying is that highsec mining is already a modest to low income activity and cannot afford to lose more ISK / hr to nullsec.

Btw, even if my mining ship were absolutely invulnerable to any and all attack and interference i would still be making modest to low ISK / hr.
Risk vs reward, Yes! Using this mantra to strip highsec miners of anything resembling fair ISK / hr, NO!


That is the issue of Incursions and LVL4s having skewed rewards - but that is a whole can of worms.

No changes to highsec mining will take place without either 1) Completely killing Tech 1 production; 2) Completely reviewing T1 input costs.

TL;DR Would have to lower all required T1 inputs, lower ore yields/mineral compositions of said ores across the whole of New Eden -> then you could see your ISK/hr go up in Hisec.

But why would we do that. P


This is a discussion about mining and the proposed changes to it, please stay on topic.

This change will deplete nullsec need for highsec ore our incomes will drop. NOTHING else in the game needs to change except the proposed changes for our incomes to drop.

I am NOT asking for my ISK / hr to go up, find any place I asked for that. Im asking for it not to go down.

So, we should just leave null with a heavy dependence on empire ores? Rather than encouraging more null pilots to put more isk down on assets in null?


Should we leave highsec industrials at the mercy of nullsec, while removing their dependence on us?

I would lean more toward yes, seeing as it stands currently, nullsec is HEAVILY dependent on highsec, whereas highsec supplies pretty much every other sec status. with the added bonus of only needing about 5% (depending on product) of its ores from non-highsec
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#188 - 2015-04-16 05:01:03 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Should we leave highsec industrials at the mercy of nullsec, while removing their dependence on us?


Yes, because giving nullsec the ability to produce anything without having to import ore completely removes our dependence on highsec. Meanwhile, the ability for us to mine ore will completely crush highsec, making it a barren wasteland with nothing to do there.

Roll

My wording if you look back at the post echoed the wording of that posters language. You chose not to include that person's post in your quote so that my words could be read as you prefered them.

But if its the word games you want to play I'm up for it. Yes, we all know it is impossible to produce anything in nullsec that's why I personally only make titans because it is so lucrative, then I move them to nullsec in my JF.

As to your wasteland comment it bellows so much exaggeration it isn't worth any more comment from me than pointing out how stupid it made your entire post read.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#189 - 2015-04-16 05:07:05 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Should we leave highsec industrials at the mercy of nullsec, while removing their dependence on us?


Yes, because giving nullsec the ability to produce anything without having to import ore completely removes our dependence on highsec. Meanwhile, the ability for us to mine ore will completely crush highsec, making it a barren wasteland with nothing to do there.

Roll

My wording if you look back at the post echoed the wording of that posters language. You chose not to include that person's post in your quote so that my words could be read as you prefered them.

But if its the word games you want to play I'm up for it. Yes, we all know it is impossible to produce anything in nullsec that's why I personally only make titans because it is so lucrative, then I move them to nullsec in my JF.

As to your wasteland comment it bellows so much exaggeration it isn't worth any more comment from me than pointing out how stupid it made your entire post read.



Apparently the rolleyes wasn't enough of a sign there for you.

My post was a sarcastic comment on all of the idiots that try to argue that allowing null to source ore locally would make either side independent of the other.
Tarus Echerie
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#190 - 2015-04-16 05:13:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarus Echerie
While I see this might help sov null; what about those of us in NPC null? We still will be net importers of modules and ABCM derived minerals as the tru-sec is not low enough to allow such ores to be around. Also, since there are no upgrades to IHUBs in NPC null we are left with standard belts and occasional (once every blue moon) anom that appears within a few jumps of where we live.

If taking a Rorqual and POS deployment wasn't just a pain in the rear-end; having mining ops around the region wouldn't be so bad. The risk is high and only modest gain for small group just needing basic minerals to build Frigs, Cruisers, and the occasional Battleship.

As others have pointed out Anoms can be warped to by any interceptor in a matter of seconds and hiring a fleet to sit 90% of the time while miners get the necessary ores generated is very teadious and borning content for the group as a whole. Since the majority of NPC Null is -0.0 to -0.4 on average all we get in NPC Null is ore anoms for ABCMs. I agree that the site should be scannable sig to give the both attacking groups and defending/ming something to have to do on both sides. Traps can be planned and miners have the be more alert to their surroundings.

It would be nice to shake up the standard belts from time to time for those of us in NPC Null. Why not introduce a small chance at DT that a ABCM astroid will spawn somewhere in a belt; maybe 1 a week for say 150 units of Arkanor or 300 units of Crokite for areas thats aren' low enough trusec. Think of it like hauler/transport spawns and Commanders spawns in belts. You have to actively search for them and if you miss them; too bad. It also allows those of us in NPC null a bit of an opportunity to not have to import as much for manufacturing.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#191 - 2015-04-16 05:32:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:

This change will deplete nullsec need for highsec ore our incomes will drop.


Not completely, we'd still have to import certain minerals.

Quote:
NOTHING else in the game needs to change except the proposed changes for our incomes to drop.


Yes, indeed your income could drop somewhat.

Quote:
I am NOT asking for my ISK / hr to go up, find any place I asked for that. Im asking for it not to go down.


Your saving grace is the coming capital ship rebalance - If demand stays at current levels, you shouldn't see a large decrease to your income; if not...

Oh, well.

Besides, people used to mine when Trit/Pyerite/Mex were 3.8 / 7 / 32 ISK p/u respectively. Blink


And when people were mining ore at those prices PLEX cost 500mil not 800mil, so what point are you making?


Oh, I'm sorry? You mine for PLEX? P

Anyways, there were no plexes back then. Blink And since you're not against slave labour by your apparent actions, I welcome the Most Glorious return of the Most Holy & Revered Tritanium, valued at 3.8 ISK and Below once again!
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#192 - 2015-04-16 05:36:56 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:

Yes, because giving nullsec the ability to produce anything without having to import ore completely removes our dependence on highsec. Meanwhile, the ability for us to mine ore will completely crush highsec, making it a barren wasteland with nothing to do there.

Roll

Except you ALREADY had the ability to produce on local ore. You just had to get out and strip those static belts daily. Rather than just farming the anoms all day. The point that will crush highsec is that the anoms are getting changed, letting you just farm them, highsec was already getting crushed by your increased refine rates which was slowly but surely deleting the high sec mineral stocks since all the ore was now getting sold to Null. This just furthers the process.

It's not a needed change, it's spoon feeding null in response to a PLAYER MADE situation. Null made the prices of ABC crash, but rather than fix it themselves they have just cried to CCP to rebuff it again and again.
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#193 - 2015-04-16 05:38:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Maldiro Selkurk
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Should we leave highsec industrials at the mercy of nullsec, while removing their dependence on us?

Rowells wrote:

I would lean more toward yes, seeing as it stands currently, nullsec is HEAVILY dependent on highsec, whereas highsec supplies pretty much every other sec status.

When we want to produce anything other than T1 we are not heavily but ABSOLUTELY dependent on the rest of New Eden for the pricy supplies like T3 components, expensive nullsec-exclusive ore, etc. If we are so dependent on the rest of New Eden for those products, game balance should make the reverse true as well.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#194 - 2015-04-16 05:44:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
If you can find a null system that can yield me a GLORIOUS Stabber Fleet Issue, I'll exchange all of my Highends with a splash of dyspro into your account(s). Big smile

Trit/Pyerite and Mex returning to historical lvls is going to be good for the whole of the Economy of New Eden - cheaper ships, moar peevp.

Is gud.

If you mine, is ungud possibly, maybe, yes. ( ͡~ ͜ʖ ͡°)
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#195 - 2015-04-16 05:51:12 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:

And when people were mining ore at those prices PLEX cost 500mil not 800mil, so what point are you making?

Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:

Oh, I'm sorry? You mine for PLEX? P

Anyways, there were no plexes back then. Blink And since you're not against slave labour by your apparent actions, I welcome the Most Glorious return of the Most Holy & Revered Tritanium, valued at 3.8 ISK and Below once again!


You could have just simply admitted you lost the argument or just slunk off to null and licked your wounds.

Cool

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#196 - 2015-04-16 05:52:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
:shockgosh:

Imagine that, there was a time when there weren't any pl0x in the game. Sad Now it's a rat race for most people if they wish to play it that way, and I wish you well in mining the required amounts of Pyerite/Mexallon to pay for it!

Slave labour. We must combat this. What?What?What?
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#197 - 2015-04-16 05:59:52 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Should we leave highsec industrials at the mercy of nullsec, while removing their dependence on us?

Rowells wrote:

I would lean more toward yes, seeing as it stands currently, nullsec is HEAVILY dependent on highsec, whereas highsec supplies pretty much every other sec status.

When we want to produce anything other than T1 we are not heavily but ABSOLUTELY dependent on the rest of New Eden for the pricy supplies like T3 components, expensive nullsec-exclusive ore, etc. If we are so dependent on the rest of New Eden for those products, game balance should make the reverse true as well.

So dependent? Maybe you wouldn't think so if you consider how many ores are bought from highsec, how many finished ships (including T2/T3), modules, faction mods (only the odd pirate drop and escalation in sov), implants (mostly not in sov null), and I'm sure I missed something else that sov null is entirely dependent on highsec for. So considering the only thing highsec can't get itself is pirate faction goods, sleeper loot, and moon goo, a decent portion of which will go back to null as finished products, I think a slight shifting of low-ends minerals in the high-end ores is way underwhelming.

Also, considering highsec will always have a vastly larger labor force, you shouldn't expect to see any massive drops in income. Highly doubt highsec miners are suddenly going to switch their operations to null (especially seeing as renting is about to become less of a thing).

also, the mass amounts of mission loot refine into highends, in case you didnt know. So its not entirely as strictly cut as you may think.
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#198 - 2015-04-16 06:48:50 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Mr Omniblivion wrote:

Yes, because giving nullsec the ability to produce anything without having to import ore completely removes our dependence on highsec. Meanwhile, the ability for us to mine ore will completely crush highsec, making it a barren wasteland with nothing to do there.

Roll

Except you ALREADY had the ability to produce on local ore. You just had to get out and strip those static belts daily. Rather than just farming the anoms all day. The point that will crush highsec is that the anoms are getting changed, letting you just farm them, highsec was already getting crushed by your increased refine rates which was slowly but surely deleting the high sec mineral stocks since all the ore was now getting sold to Null. This just furthers the process.


laffo

Your grasp on this game and reality is mild at best

Nevyn Auscent wrote:

It's not a needed change, it's spoon feeding null in response to a PLAYER MADE situation.


hahahahahahahahahahaha this is such a dumb comment

here, let me explain it to you:
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#199 - 2015-04-16 06:49:45 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Should we leave highsec industrials at the mercy of nullsec, while removing their dependence on us?

Rowells wrote:

I would lean more toward yes, seeing as it stands currently, nullsec is HEAVILY dependent on highsec, whereas highsec supplies pretty much every other sec status.

When we want to produce anything other than T1 we are not heavily but ABSOLUTELY dependent on the rest of New Eden for the pricy supplies like T3 components, expensive nullsec-exclusive ore, etc. If we are so dependent on the rest of New Eden for those products, game balance should make the reverse true as well.

So dependent? Maybe you wouldn't think so if you consider how many ores are bought from highsec, how many finished ships (including T2/T3), modules, faction mods (only the odd pirate drop and escalation in sov), implants (mostly not in sov null), and I'm sure I missed something else that sov null is entirely dependent on highsec for. So considering the only thing highsec can't get itself is pirate faction goods, sleeper loot, and moon goo, a decent portion of which will go back to null as finished products, I think a slight shifting of low-ends minerals in the high-end ores is way underwhelming.

Also, considering highsec will always have a vastly larger labor force, you shouldn't expect to see any massive drops in income. Highly doubt highsec miners are suddenly going to switch their operations to null (especially seeing as renting is about to become less of a thing).

also, the mass amounts of mission loot refine into highends, in case you didnt know. So its not entirely as strictly cut as you may think.


Typical goonshit.

implants are small and easily transported, their consumption is not anywhere near minerals, same for faction modules.
Building ships in hisec is doomed anyway, I'm not sure why even bring that up. If you alliance is dependent on hisec for ships, there is no surprise you got your butts kicked in Fountain.
Mission loot refinable in highends is a LIE. The amount of highends obtained by refining is negligible. I probably should drop your face into eve-refinery's table for my proof, but as you're just a goon troll, you don't need proof, you're just here for paplinks on orders to capitalize your gains from this unneeded change, and the last thing you need is discussion.
Hisec income is ALREADY rekt btw. But you will ignore this anyway, when 25% of hisec mining income has gone down the drain even before changes are live, and more to come.
Hisec miners won't switch to null, unless it's a blue donut, but blue donut is a domain of bot fleets and actual miners are not needed there. Hisec miners just have to unsub again like in Odyssey and wait for another 5 consecutive buffs which it took to recover mining to 75% of former income from drop to 25% on Odyssey launch.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.

Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#200 - 2015-04-16 06:53:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Basil Pupkin wrote:

Hisec income is ALREADY rekt btw. But you will ignore this anyway, when 25% of hisec mining income has gone down the drain even before changes are live, and more to come.


Smart people making gud moves and exiting large positions as soon as possible, the other side is refraining from purchasing further ores. Smart.

PLAYER ECONOMY BRO Big smile

I find the notion viewing Highsec as an endgame in itself laughable - Glorious Truesec is where most pilots should be aiming at - Develop and sustain, cherish and protect, enjoy and overcome all odds by living in player-driven Empires, Freeport Federations and the like. Blink

The highest number of player activity has always coincided with the largest conflicts and wars in the history of New Eden.

Even in a book of lies sometimes you find truth. There is indeed a season for all things. My strength is not in steel and fire, that is what the parasites will never understand. A season for all things! A time to live and a time to die, a time to build... and a time to destroy!