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[April] Ore, Mineral and Nullsec Mining Anomaly Revamp

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Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#161 - 2015-04-15 23:37:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:

What I'm saying is that highsec mining is already a modest to low income activity and cannot afford to lose more ISK / hr to nullsec.

Btw, even if my mining ship were absolutely invulnerable to any and all attack and interference i would still be making modest to low ISK / hr.
Risk vs reward, Yes! Using this mantra to strip highsec miners of anything resembling fair ISK / hr, NO!


That is the issue of Incursions and LVL4s having skewed rewards - but that is a whole can of worms.

No changes to highsec mining will take place without either 1) Completely killing Tech 1 production; 2) Completely reviewing T1 input costs.

TL;DR Would have to lower all required T1 inputs, change ore yields and asteroid volumes of said ores across the whole of New Eden to compensate -> then you could see your ISK/hr go up in Hisec.

But why would we do that. P

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Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#162 - 2015-04-15 23:43:29 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:

What I'm saying is that highsec mining is already a modest to low income activity and cannot afford to lose more ISK / hr to nullsec.

Btw, even if my mining ship were absolutely invulnerable to any and all attack and interference i would still be making modest to low ISK / hr.
Risk vs reward, Yes! Using this mantra to strip highsec miners of anything resembling fair ISK / hr, NO!


That is the issue of Incursions and LVL4s having skewed rewards - but that is a whole can of worms.

No changes to highsec mining will take place without either 1) Completely killing Tech 1 production; 2) Completely reviewing T1 input costs.

TL;DR Would have to lower all required T1 inputs, lower ore yields/mineral compositions of said ores across the whole of New Eden -> then you could see your ISK/hr go up in Hisec.

But why would we do that. P


This is a discussion about mining and the proposed changes to it, please stay on topic.

This change will deplete nullsec need for highsec ore our incomes will drop. NOTHING else in the game needs to change except the proposed changes for our incomes to drop.

I am NOT asking for my ISK / hr to go up, find any place I asked for that. Im asking for it not to go down.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#163 - 2015-04-15 23:48:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:

This change will deplete nullsec need for highsec ore our incomes will drop.


Not completely, we'd still have to import certain minerals.

Quote:
NOTHING else in the game needs to change except the proposed changes for our incomes to drop.


Yes, indeed your income could drop somewhat.

Quote:
I am NOT asking for my ISK / hr to go up, find any place I asked for that. Im asking for it not to go down.


Your saving grace is the coming capital ship rebalance - If demand stays at current levels, you shouldn't see a large decrease to your income; if not...

Oh, well.

Besides, people used to mine when Trit/Pyerite/Mex were 3.8 / 7 / 32 ISK p/u respectively. Blink

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Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#164 - 2015-04-16 00:00:51 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:

What I'm saying is that highsec mining is already a modest to low income activity and cannot afford to lose more ISK / hr to nullsec.

Btw, even if my mining ship were absolutely invulnerable to any and all attack and interference i would still be making modest to low ISK / hr.
Risk vs reward, Yes! Using this mantra to strip highsec miners of anything resembling fair ISK / hr, NO!


That is the issue of Incursions and LVL4s having skewed rewards - but that is a whole can of worms.

No changes to highsec mining will take place without either 1) Completely killing Tech 1 production; 2) Completely reviewing T1 input costs.

TL;DR Would have to lower all required T1 inputs, lower ore yields/mineral compositions of said ores across the whole of New Eden -> then you could see your ISK/hr go up in Hisec.

But why would we do that. P


This is a discussion about mining and the proposed changes to it, please stay on topic.

This change will deplete nullsec need for highsec ore our incomes will drop. NOTHING else in the game needs to change except the proposed changes for our incomes to drop.

I am NOT asking for my ISK / hr to go up, find any place I asked for that. Im asking for it not to go down.

So, we should just leave null with a heavy dependence on empire ores? Rather than encouraging more null pilots to put more isk down on assets in null?
Decaneos
Casalt Corp
CAStabouts
#165 - 2015-04-16 00:09:26 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Decaneos wrote:
So syndicate is still going to be really bad as is by the looks of this all of npc null while at the same time penalizing anyone not living in sov space by increase the amount of minerals needed.

when i asked about this i was told all minerals would be available throughout null, looking at this its a huge back step and even a nerf to a large portion of nullsec mining and manufacturing in anywhere that's not sov.

sry but these changes are horrible was expecting more.


So NPC null regions are worse than a fully upgraded sov system. Roll

NEWS AT 11

***

There has to be disparity between not only NPC and sov regions, but between different sov regions themselves, otherwise the Blue Donut is 4 Lyfe.

Anyone know whether these ore anomalies are all the same across all sov space? If so, then moon resources are the only differentiating factor here. Sad


What i am saying is this is actually a nerf to mining in NPC null sec. in Syndicate there is no access to mega at all and only jaspet is available in the belts for zydrine. Syndicate and other npc nulls have basically the same ores as a 0.4 system.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#166 - 2015-04-16 00:14:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Decaneos wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Decaneos wrote:
So syndicate is still going to be really bad as is by the looks of this all of npc null while at the same time penalizing anyone not living in sov space by increase the amount of minerals needed.

when i asked about this i was told all minerals would be available throughout null, looking at this its a huge back step and even a nerf to a large portion of nullsec mining and manufacturing in anywhere that's not sov.

sry but these changes are horrible was expecting more.


So NPC null regions are worse than a fully upgraded sov system. Roll

NEWS AT 11

***

There has to be disparity between not only NPC and sov regions, but between different sov regions themselves, otherwise the Blue Donut is 4 Lyfe.

Anyone know whether these ore anomalies are all the same across all sov space? If so, then moon resources are the only differentiating factor here. Sad


What i am saying is this is actually a nerf to mining in NPC null sec. in Syndicate there is no access to mega at all and only jaspet is available in the belts for zydrine. Syndicate and other npc nulls have basically the same ores as a 0.4 system.


Haven't mined in over a decade. That's curious. Smile

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/region/Syndicate

Crokite appears to be available in certain systems. You need a system with a Truesec @ -0.6-0.7 for belt A/B ores. AFAIR

That's actually good that Arkonor & Bistot aren't obtainable in NPC null space. Smile Come shop next door!

http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=71528

Heheh, EvE - EvE never changes.

Oh God, thanks for making me remember how awesome it all was without these cookie-copy ore anomalies. Cool

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Gyr Altai
Pulse Industries
Knights Collective
#167 - 2015-04-16 00:14:42 UTC
Querns wrote:


Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:

With this change going ahead it may be an idea to add some of the most rare rocks in small amounts into hard to scan anomalies in hisec and losec for explorers to go find. Then some of the isk transfer is mitigated, production issues in nullsec are mitigated and new sites are added for explorers to find and exploit putting more pilots in space whilst rewarding actual effort more.

These already exist; they are called wormholes.


Except they aren't hard to scan down because they are insta warp anoms, and no one but the most risk adverse bears who close off all attachments mine in. In a world of at least 2 cloaky proteus in every hole at all times...mining is dumb unless you want to constantly be slaughtered.
Henry Plantgenet
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#168 - 2015-04-16 00:25:12 UTC
NPC nullsec areas should have at least as good ores as 0.1.
apparently CCP thinks differently.
Gyr Altai
Pulse Industries
Knights Collective
#169 - 2015-04-16 00:27:47 UTC
Eodp Ellecon wrote:



The old scan-for-anoms was tedious for new players, and diffused a skill path of interest, taking even longer to gain access into this entry portion of EVE. Yes, new players mine in null sometimes and the tease of scanned anoms over belts was silly. Do not bring this back unless you have a 99% reduction scan reduction utility slot on all mining ships.




How was this tedious for new players? New players are in .5 or higher systems and mine in asteroid belts. Super easy to get into. The scanning tutorial even had a scannable ore site so you knew they were there. Should relic/data/wormholes/ded sites just be warpable anoms too...pretty big barrier for newbrows to get over, we wouldn't want them to have to put effort into doing something they give you the tools for and show you how to use in the tutorial now would we.

Make ore anoms scannables again = more miners in wh = more explosions = more fun!
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#170 - 2015-04-16 00:31:54 UTC
Henry Plantgenet wrote:
NPC nullsec areas should have at least as good ores as 0.1.
apparently CCP thinks differently.

I thought the ores in NPC were determinant on the sec status already?
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#171 - 2015-04-16 00:35:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Henry Plantgenet wrote:
NPC nullsec areas should have at least as good ores as 0.1.
apparently CCP thinks differently.


It has been so since the game began.

You need truesec of -0.5-0.7 for belt ABC ores. Certain NPC null systems will have everything upto & including Crokite, which is way better than what any LS provides. Smile

Grab an Entosis link with your Riftor and be adventurous! Big smile

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Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#172 - 2015-04-16 01:08:01 UTC
Gyr Altai wrote:
Querns wrote:


Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:

With this change going ahead it may be an idea to add some of the most rare rocks in small amounts into hard to scan anomalies in hisec and losec for explorers to go find. Then some of the isk transfer is mitigated, production issues in nullsec are mitigated and new sites are added for explorers to find and exploit putting more pilots in space whilst rewarding actual effort more.

These already exist; they are called wormholes.


Except they aren't hard to scan down because they are insta warp anoms, and no one but the most risk adverse bears who close off all attachments mine in. In a world of at least 2 cloaky proteus in every hole at all times...mining is dumb unless you want to constantly be slaughtered.

If you aren't willing to shoulder the risks of 0.0, wormholes, or lowsec, then you get no highends.

Note that this is exact situation that occurs now.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#173 - 2015-04-16 01:13:13 UTC
Henry Plantgenet wrote:
NPC nullsec areas should have at least as good ores as 0.1.
apparently CCP thinks differently.

I would suggest simply moving inside the region you are in, honestly.

According to dotlan, some crokite spawns in Syndicate, primarily in the systems around S-U (honored be thy name; S-U is where we will finally go to die.)

Ore spawns are roughly dependent on truesec. Outer Ring, in particular, has some amazing truesec pockets, and spawns both bistot AND arkonor in the best system.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Traedar
InterStellar Trading Syndicate
#174 - 2015-04-16 01:27:38 UTC
Has anyone run the numbers of how much of each mineral are in the Mining Anoms before vs after change, with perfect refine? Care to share the numbers?
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#175 - 2015-04-16 02:02:49 UTC
Traedar wrote:
Has anyone run the numbers of how much of each mineral are in the Mining Anoms before vs after change, with perfect refine?


Yes.

Quote:
Care to share the numbers?


No.

For a fee, yes. ( ͡~ ͜ʖ ͡°)

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Eodp Ellecon
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#176 - 2015-04-16 02:07:47 UTC
Gyr Altai wrote:
Eodp Ellecon wrote:



The old scan-for-anoms was tedious for new players, and diffused a skill path of interest, taking even longer to gain access into this entry portion of EVE. Yes, new players mine in null sometimes and the tease of scanned anoms over belts was silly. Do not bring this back unless you have a 99% reduction scan reduction utility slot on all mining ships.




How was this tedious for new players? New players are in .5 or higher systems and mine in asteroid belts. Super easy to get into. The scanning tutorial even had a scannable ore site so you knew they were there. Should relic/data/wormholes/ded sites just be warpable anoms too...pretty big barrier for newbrows to get over, we wouldn't want them to have to put effort into doing something they give you the tools for and show you how to use in the tutorial now would we.

Make ore anoms scannables again = more miners in wh = more explosions = more fun!



Since you poked and I was speaking from personal experience. As a newb i was mining belts in .2 - .4 space in my first month using a Navitas and Catalyst chasing necessary minerals for builds + mining at the time gave better isk than I could generate ratting. In my second month I was mining in deep null still having to use a Vexor (which had such bonuses at the time) and was still far from being able to use a Barge, or have the skills to scan hidden rock anoms or rat independently.

So No, newbs are not limited to HS .5 mining, and since then the Venture has been introduced for just these reasons.


With attributes and mapping the diffusion of skills at opposite spectrums make meaningful advancements difficult for new players. At present, mining, ratting and scanning are 3 different career paths that don't overlap well based on attributes.


The old scan rock anoms merely gave miners time to see if a neut in system knew anything about scanning and added little to the miner's game-play once said anom was located - hence a tedious ship changing time consumption exercise 3x a day. Like I said, if it comes back, put a scan bonus and utility slot on All mining ships and they can duel with T3-Dessys scanning them down.
umah
SILK ROAD
#177 - 2015-04-16 02:17:56 UTC
To be honest, I don't see this changing anything at all.

Since the system is closed, everything from ore to product will just readjust in price to make it the same slog as its always been.

The industry problems in null sec have nothing to do with mining.

Its based on a political/military equation, not economics. The sov holders don't and never have used the space they hold for anything except good fights over moon goo (which instantly goes to Hi Sec)

I don't see that changing, frankly, industry sucks in 0.0 because you lose everything to the first frigate that drops on you. The risk /reward equation just doesn't work for industry in 0.0.

Then there is the problem of RMT

The only time 0.0 industry ever worked was in Drone regions when NPCs dropped refinable loot. When that was nerfed over RMT concerns, industry dried up, and Drone regions became worthless wasteland. With that nerf, CCP made it clear that industry in 0.0 was not something they wanted, because it made drone regions too lucrative.

If 0.0 becomes good industry ground again, then RMT comes back, so they are in a box.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#178 - 2015-04-16 02:21:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Eodp Ellecon wrote:

ike I said, if it comes back, put a scan bonus and utility slot on All mining ships and they can duel with T3-Dessys scanning them down.


Big smile

Heheheh... Heheheh. T3Ds he said. Heh-heheh.

Heh-heh.

I like this thread - brings people closer together, reveals the inner carebear. Bear A rare event indeed!

Agreed on Venture mining.

umah wrote:
To be honest, I don't see this changing anything at all.

Since the system is closed, everything from ore to product will just readjust in price to make it the same slog as its always been.

The industry problems in null sec have nothing to do with mining.


How wrong you are. Blink

Someone will pickup the shovel, and as ABCs are cherry-picked, there will be no option than to mine out the rest, and little by little it will end up on the local markets. Certain folks don't realise how a simple fundamental change can give rise to a momentum wave that becomes self-sustaining.

umah wrote:
The sov holders don't and never have used the space they hold for anything except good fights over moon goo (which instantly goes to Hi Sec)


You are speaking of control of a strategic R32/R64 resource, strategy for which takes months, if not a year to develop and mature, and gudfites which are merely tactical forms of entertainment.

Some clown entities may set gudfights as a strategic goal of its own, but it's only due to the existing donut, and is bread and circuses for the masses.

The Era of pointless engagments, this Era, is coming to a close, as entities will scramble to merely survive in the sov 5.0 at first.

ALL PLANNED AT NOL SUMMER PARTY 2005 ( ͡~ ͜ʖ ͡°)

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Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#179 - 2015-04-16 02:36:02 UTC
umah wrote:
To be honest, I don't see this changing anything at all.

Since the system is closed, everything from ore to product will just readjust in price to make it the same slog as its always been.

The industry problems in null sec have nothing to do with mining.

Its based on a political/military equation, not economics. The sov holders don't and never have used the space they hold for anything except good fights over moon goo (which instantly goes to Hi Sec)

I don't see that changing, frankly, industry sucks in 0.0 because you lose everything to the first frigate that drops on you. The risk /reward equation just doesn't work for industry in 0.0.

Then there is the problem of RMT

The only time 0.0 industry ever worked was in Drone regions when NPCs dropped refinable loot. When that was nerfed over RMT concerns, industry dried up, and Drone regions became worthless wasteland. With that nerf, CCP made it clear that industry in 0.0 was not something they wanted, because it made drone regions too lucrative.

If 0.0 becomes good industry ground again, then RMT comes back, so they are in a box.

A shocking amount of tin foil was used in the preparation of this post. I guess it boosts the Icelandic economy of refining bauxite, so there's at least a little gain there.

If you suspect someone of engaging in RMT, by all means, send a report in. Tinfoiling on eve-o does not get the problem solved.

If only your alliance had managed to not get purged from Deklein back in 2010 -- maybe you guys could have approached something resembling a reasonable vignette due to the benediction of our glorious thought leaders. Alas.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#180 - 2015-04-16 03:13:05 UTC
Querns wrote:

A shocking amount of tin foil was used in the preparation of this post. I guess it boosts the Icelandic economy of refining bauxite, so there's at least a little gain there.


Must be leftover supplies from Summer of 2009. Blink

Quote:
If only your alliance had managed to not get purged from Deklein back in 2010 -- maybe you guys could have approached something resembling a reasonable vignette due to the benediction of our glorious thought leaders. Alas.


Hooold on, hoooold on - Tell me more. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

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