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[April] Ore, Mineral and Nullsec Mining Anomaly Revamp

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Decaneos
Casalt Corp
CAStabouts
#121 - 2015-04-15 15:51:29 UTC
So syndicate is still going to be really bad as is by the looks of this all of npc null while at the same time penalizing anyone not living in sov space by increase the amount of minerals needed.

when i asked about this i was told all minerals would be available throughout null, looking at this its a huge back step and even a nerf to a large portion of nullsec mining and manufacturing in anywhere that's not sov.

sry but these changes are horrible was expecting more.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#122 - 2015-04-15 16:05:48 UTC
Querns wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Querns wrote:

This assumption is dangerously weak. Profit is absolutely a major carrot for miners in all areas of space.

They do it for reasons other than pure profit as there are many better and much faster ways to make money than mining. They could make more isk mining in null right now under the blue doughnut yet they don't. They don't want to be in nullsec and won't be forced down there so the net result of moving isk from hisec to null will be lost subscriptions. The hisec players pay to play the game too yet we see improved yields in one area of space with the rare ores remaining unavailable in others. This won't encourage many more people to go mine in null as they simply don't want to be there otherwise they already would.

Laughing at the blue donut thing when we completely destroyed the N3 coalition, caused NpCdock to abandon sov altogether, and announced our intentions to not only withdraw from their holdings, but also to cede 2 of our own regions in the process. Could you be any further behind in politics?

The point of nullsec being more lucrative is that it is commensurate with increased risk. If you want to stay in your highsec playpen, you must necessarily accept lower reward in the bargain. It's just how the game works.

Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Querns wrote:

These already exist; they are called wormholes.


Which are fine for those with the time and real life commitments that allow them to do so, but many players in hisec stay there because they love the game but wouldn't have the time to commit to going into WH's. This would be a means of providing a limited supply of high-ends in a competitive setting.

Daytripping does not require the kind of commitment you are describing.


Note that I don't mine now, I'm just arguing the side of the hisec folks since they are being increasingly marginalized in terms of how they can make a profit. We'll see how this all shakes out of course but I don't believe that forcing people to move to lower sec regions to be able to make any kind of profit is a good plan. It should take a lot more effort in hisec to make a reasonable return of course since the risk is much lower but that is already the case. Risk/reward is always bandied around but I believe it should be considered as effort/risk/reward.

As for nullsec politics I couldn't give a **** about it right now. The alliances down there can throw billions upon billions of ships around in huge fleet battles and rightly so as they have carved out their own space. No-one is going to believe cries of being hard done by though when they see the vast amounts of assets in play.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#123 - 2015-04-15 16:10:07 UTC
Decaneos wrote:
So syndicate is still going to be really bad as is by the looks of this all of npc null while at the same time penalizing anyone not living in sov space by increase the amount of minerals needed.

when i asked about this i was told all minerals would be available throughout null, looking at this its a huge back step and even a nerf to a large portion of nullsec mining and manufacturing in anywhere that's not sov.

sry but these changes are horrible was expecting more.


You asked the wrong person then. Be careful not to ask people who don't know what they are talking about.

I guess the NPC dwellers (including me probably within a few weeks) will just have to be satisfied with not having to defend our space for 4 hours a day and having mission agents available. Oh the humanity.


How much mining goes on in non sov regions anyway? A quick glance at Dotlan numbers suggests that there's fuckall in terms of people actively living in full NPC nullsec regions excepting Syndicate, and I for one wouldn't want to try mining in that region.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#124 - 2015-04-15 16:12:01 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Note that I don't mine now, I'm just arguing the side of the hisec folks since they are being increasingly marginalized in terms of how they can make a profit. We'll see how this all shakes out of course but I don't believe that forcing people to move to lower sec regions to be able to make any kind of profit is a good plan. It should take a lot more effort in hisec to make a reasonable return of course since the risk is much lower but that is already the case. Risk/reward is always bandied around but I believe it should be considered as effort/risk/reward.

As for nullsec politics I couldn't give a **** about it right now. The alliances down there can throw billions upon billions of ships around in huge fleet battles and rightly so as they have carved out their own space. No-one is going to believe cries of being hard done by though when they see the vast amounts of assets in play.

Nullsec mining being more profitable does not force anyone to do anything. It simply provides a carrot to encourage people to accept the risk and put themselves out in the more dangerous areas of space.

The point about nullsec politics is that you're using mental shortcuts like "blue donut" to describe things that you truly do not understand. This does not help your case at all. "Blue donut" loses a lot of meaning when we are literally at war, destroying other parts of nullsec. It's an outmoded term and you'd do well to discard it from future posts.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Eodp Ellecon
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#125 - 2015-04-15 17:05:13 UTC
NEONOVUS wrote:
Have you considered adding more minerals to T2 production? Currently it seems a bit odd that most of them just use morphite as a mineral and rely on the t1 mineral count.




As said before, many items roll a T1 into the T2 production.

T2 already has added expense of Advanced Moon Material needs of which racial specialties + Ferrogel were added on top of that about 2 years ago. So there's already plenty of added material and logistic complexity with T2 production. At least at that point they removed stuffs from the 'additional materials' list.
Siigari Kitawa
New Eden Archery Club
#126 - 2015-04-15 17:08:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Siigari Kitawa
I'm honestly confused about Dark Ochre. Why is it so overloaded on Isogen with nearly no Nocxium? All of the ore colors are going to need to change to represent the downward value of ores.

More like "Cerulean Ochre" am I right? :|

Need stuff moved? Push Industries will handle it. Serving highsec, lowsec and nullsec - and we do it faster and more reliably than anyone else. Ingame channel: PUSHX
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#127 - 2015-04-15 17:10:57 UTC
Siigari Kitawa wrote:
I'm honestly confused about Dark Ochre. Why is it so overloaded on Isogen with nearly no Nocxium? As a matter of fact, no ore on your new chart focuses on Nocx, and that's a bit frustrating.

More like "Cerulean Ochre" am I right? :|

Take a second look at the Crokite comp -- it is receiving nearly triple the amount of nocx compared to now.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#128 - 2015-04-15 17:12:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Siigari Kitawa wrote:
I'm honestly confused about Dark Ochre. Why is it so overloaded on Isogen with nearly no Nocxium? All of the ore colors are going to need to change to represent the downward value of ores.

More like "Cerulean Ochre" am I right? :|

Crokite has over 6 times as much Nocxium as the next highest ore.... So there's that.

Ehhh, seeing that Quern sniped me, I may as well offer my two cents worth to make this a non useless post.

Yeah nvm I got nothing. Depending where my alliance lands, I may actuality end up mining now. It's certainly going to make carting around compressed ore to refine at staging systems a lot easier than before.
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#129 - 2015-04-15 17:35:50 UTC
Querns wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Note that I don't mine now, I'm just arguing the side of the hisec folks since they are being increasingly marginalized in terms of how they can make a profit. We'll see how this all shakes out of course but I don't believe that forcing people to move to lower sec regions to be able to make any kind of profit is a good plan. It should take a lot more effort in hisec to make a reasonable return of course since the risk is much lower but that is already the case. Risk/reward is always bandied around but I believe it should be considered as effort/risk/reward.

As for nullsec politics I couldn't give a **** about it right now. The alliances down there can throw billions upon billions of ships around in huge fleet battles and rightly so as they have carved out their own space. No-one is going to believe cries of being hard done by though when they see the vast amounts of assets in play.

Nullsec mining being more profitable does not force anyone to do anything. It simply provides a carrot to encourage people to accept the risk and put themselves out in the more dangerous areas of space.

The point about nullsec politics is that you're using mental shortcuts like "blue donut" to describe things that you truly do not understand. This does not help your case at all. "Blue donut" loses a lot of meaning when we are literally at war, destroying other parts of nullsec. It's an outmoded term and you'd do well to discard it from future posts.


Blue donut mining is a lot safer than hisec.
It's not a carrot, it's a stick right up the rear of every non-bot hisec miner.
Grats on encouraging deklein bot fleets, CCP Lapdog.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#130 - 2015-04-15 17:38:31 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:

Blue donut mining is a lot safer than hisec.
It's not a carrot, it's a stick right up the rear of every non-bot hisec miner.
Grats on encouraging deklein bot fleets, CCP Lapdog.

Nah.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#131 - 2015-04-15 17:48:47 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Blue donut mining is a lot safer than hisec.
It's not a carrot, it's a stick right up the rear of every non-bot hisec miner.
Grats on encouraging deklein bot fleets, CCP Lapdog.

Buzzword check:
Blue donut
Botting
CCP-(fanboy)

well written response, thank you for your time.
Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#132 - 2015-04-15 19:01:22 UTC
NEONOVUS wrote:
Have you considered adding more minerals to T2 production? Currently it seems a bit odd that most of them just use morphite as a mineral and rely on the t1 mineral count.




I think this guy wants to push the cost of jump freighters to 10 bil.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#133 - 2015-04-15 19:08:50 UTC
Decaneos wrote:
So syndicate is still going to be really bad as is by the looks of this all of npc null while at the same time penalizing anyone not living in sov space by increase the amount of minerals needed.

when i asked about this i was told all minerals would be available throughout null, looking at this its a huge back step and even a nerf to a large portion of nullsec mining and manufacturing in anywhere that's not sov.

sry but these changes are horrible was expecting more.


So NPC null regions are worse than a fully upgraded sov system. Roll

NEWS AT 11

***

There has to be disparity between not only NPC and sov regions, but between different sov regions themselves, otherwise the Blue Donut is 4 Lyfe.

Anyone know whether these ore anomalies are all the same across all sov space? If so, then moon resources are the only differentiating factor here. Sad

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Valterra Craven
#134 - 2015-04-15 19:11:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
Jagoff Haverford wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
It also makes it much easier for players to decide what ore to mine if they find themselves in need of a specific mineral.

No, it does not. You mine ALL the ore in the anomaly so you can get another anomaly.

Please understand that. It has been distorting the mineral supply in the game for years. Null miners DO NOT get to choose what ore they mine, they are spoon fed what to mine by game mechanics.

This may be the most crucial point in this thread, and I don't know that CCP has ever really come to grips with it. With the current anomaly mechanics, there are no "meaningful choices" to be made in null sec mining. Even if you are desperately in need of mexallon, you spend a huge chunk of time mining other things (such as the Giant Spodumain rock), just so you can kill the current anomaly and get a new one with the ores that you actually want.



I agree. The thing about this is that CCP creates problems with every new content addition. Drone regions came into being, mineral problems came into being, anoms came into being, more problems came into being. And with every fix they put out they only continue to band aid the problem.

The solution is not to continue adding band aides the solution is to fix the problem. So if the problem is that the whole anom has to be mined to get a new one, then why not just allow players to "destroy" the anoms that are present. Aka allow 5-10 people 10-20minutes to destroy an anom either with an entosis link somehow are with smartbombs. Just allow roids to be destroy by other things besides mining lasers. And guess what, this also opens up new content for pvpers because now they can literally salt the fields of other people's space! Win Win.
Bubbleup Now
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#135 - 2015-04-15 19:20:23 UTC
Zappity wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We continue to believe that no area of space should be completely independent of any other, but there is a lot of room to make nullsec more self sufficient and improve the opportunities for zero-sec miners and industrialists.

Fozzie, could you briefly expand on this? Do you think that this balance pass will result in greater local null production but retain some dependence on other space?


I would also ask if you would talk briefly about your thoughts on lowsec mining and how it should fit into the mining picture overall. Right now there is a lot of discussion about high sec mining vs. null sec mining, and how the latter needs a boost, but low sec mining has very little margin in it now, with similar risks to null sec mining. While easier to source low ends from nearby systems (typically) many pirate miners are confined to lowsec for sec status reasons. Must the minerals of New Eden be angry at us for sec status issues, just like faction navies do?
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#136 - 2015-04-15 19:23:53 UTC
Bubbleup Now wrote:
Zappity wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We continue to believe that no area of space should be completely independent of any other, but there is a lot of room to make nullsec more self sufficient and improve the opportunities for zero-sec miners and industrialists.

Fozzie, could you briefly expand on this? Do you think that this balance pass will result in greater local null production but retain some dependence on other space?


I would also ask if you would talk briefly about your thoughts on lowsec mining and how it should fit into the mining picture overall. Right now there is a lot of discussion about high sec mining vs. null sec mining, and how the latter needs a boost, but low sec mining has very little margin in it now, with similar risks to null sec mining. While easier to source low ends from nearby systems (typically) many pirate miners are confined to lowsec for sec status reasons. Must the minerals of New Eden be angry at us for sec status issues, just like faction navies do?



Well, lowsec ores just received a fair boost.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#137 - 2015-04-15 19:42:41 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:

Anyone know whether these ore anomalies are all the same across all sov space? If so, then moon resources are the only differentiating factor here. Sad

Yes, the ore anomalies are consistent across all sov space.

This only leaves rat type, salvage type, exploration loot type, DED complexes and attendant deadspace loot, officers, racial isotope flavor, capital geography, and distance from Jita to differentiate different parts of nullsec. Oh, and the moongoo, but you got that already.

Truly, this is a tragedy!

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#138 - 2015-04-15 19:54:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Querns wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:

Anyone know whether these ore anomalies are all the same across all sov space? If so, then moon resources are the only differentiating factor here. Sad

Yes, the ore anomalies are consistent across all sov space.


You got me. Blink But different flavours of the same PVE stuff that is essentially available everywhere doesn't count.

During the early times, all of the 6/7/8/10 DED complexes had fixed and known locations across half a dozen regions, and that fueled conflict.

Then, it was the R32/64 moon materials during the BoB times, and still appears to be largely the case nowadays. Smile

This is why you're in Delve right now. Smile

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#139 - 2015-04-15 20:09:07 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Querns wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:

Anyone know whether these ore anomalies are all the same across all sov space? If so, then moon resources are the only differentiating factor here. Sad

Yes, the ore anomalies are consistent across all sov space.


You got me. Blink But different flavours of the same PVE stuff doesn't count.

During the early times, all of the 6/7/8/10 DED complexes had fixed and known locations across half a dozen regions, and that fueled conflict.

Then, it was the R32/64 moon materials during the BoB times, and still appears to be largely the case nowadays. Smile

This is why you're in Delve right now. Smile

You are pretty bad at understanding contemporary politics, as that does not describe our presence in Delve at all. However, this is hella off-topic. Check reddit for a primer.

It's pretty easy to say ":byodood: ALL NULLSEC IS THE SAME" when you selectively reference the parts of nullsec that are the same while blithely ignoring the parts that are different.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#140 - 2015-04-15 20:13:50 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Jagoff Haverford wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
It also makes it much easier for players to decide what ore to mine if they find themselves in need of a specific mineral.

No, it does not. You mine ALL the ore in the anomaly so you can get another anomaly.

Please understand that. It has been distorting the mineral supply in the game for years. Null miners DO NOT get to choose what ore they mine, they are spoon fed what to mine by game mechanics.

This may be the most crucial point in this thread, and I don't know that CCP has ever really come to grips with it. With the current anomaly mechanics, there are no "meaningful choices" to be made in null sec mining. Even if you are desperately in need of mexallon, you spend a huge chunk of time mining other things (such as the Giant Spodumain rock), just so you can kill the current anomaly and get a new one with the ores that you actually want.



I agree. The thing about this is that CCP creates problems with every new content addition. Drone regions came into being, mineral problems came into being, anoms came into being, more problems came into being. And with every fix they put out they only continue to band aid the problem.

The solution is not to continue adding band aides the solution is to fix the problem. So if the problem is that the whole anom has to be mined to get a new one, then why not just allow players to "destroy" the anoms that are present. Aka allow 5-10 people 10-20minutes to destroy an anom either with an entosis link somehow are with smartbombs. Just allow roids to be destroy by other things besides mining lasers. And guess what, this also opens up new content for pvpers because now they can literally salt the fields of other people's space! Win Win.



you want to grief the mining belts/anon's now.. so instead of blowing up ships, structures, and infrastructure.. you now propose ccp to allow you to doomsday a mining belt.. rofl