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[April] Ore, Mineral and Nullsec Mining Anomaly Revamp

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Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#61 - 2015-04-15 02:23:05 UTC
Siigari Kitawa wrote:
I thought Eve was about having connections and being able to do many things well.

If you give nullsec alliances a button to push so they can have everything they want, isn't that a bit inane? Why not make them work for it SOMEWHAT. I mean, I feel for them, I really do. In high and low, Zyd, Mega and Morph are nearly impossible to come by in usable quantities. I understand Mex is difficult for null to come by. So why give them everything and stifle everyone else?

Just seems fundamentally wrong in a SANDBOX.

You are aware that mining ships can be destroyed in nullsec with impunity, right? You can go and SNIPE one today!

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#62 - 2015-04-15 03:09:03 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:

No, it does not. You mine ALL the ore in the anomaly so you can get another anomaly.

You know, I heard a rumour there are these things called static belts in Null, that have even more in them than highsec, and a mix of all the ores as well. And given there are even more null systems than high, and high has no industrial anoms.... this must mean that all the ore that null currently imports could easily just come from their static belts.

You just won't be satisfied till CCP gives you absolute perfect braindead mining in the anoms will you? It's already been just handed to you on a silver platter needing only slight balancing, now you want it on the gold platter with platinum inlay as well.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#63 - 2015-04-15 03:09:53 UTC
Querns wrote:
Nah -- it's vastly more effort efficient to import, and contemporary mining is such bad isk/hr that no sane person would denigrate themselves by doing it. The changes should help the latter.


Except that the high-ends already have such low value precisely because they are being mined out by people who "denigrate" themselves by mining everything based on "ISK/m3 to market."

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Lienzo
Amanuensis
#64 - 2015-04-15 03:21:14 UTC
These are great changes, but I'm still hoping that round 2 creates additional incentive for people to want to mine veldspar in lower security space.
Phaestyriade
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#65 - 2015-04-15 03:28:51 UTC
WTS Roqual. IT is good for filling your sma.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#66 - 2015-04-15 03:56:16 UTC
Phaestyriade wrote:
WTS Roqual. IT is good for filling your sma.

I bid 1 isk. Really, this thread is nothing to do with the Rorqual though. (And it gives fine boosts atm anyway).
We all know it's broken, but ore composition changes are nothing to do with it.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#67 - 2015-04-15 04:12:30 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Querns wrote:
Nah -- it's vastly more effort efficient to import, and contemporary mining is such bad isk/hr that no sane person would denigrate themselves by doing it. The changes should help the latter.


Except that the high-ends already have such low value precisely because they are being mined out by people who "denigrate" themselves by mining everything based on "ISK/m3 to market."

How convenient it is, then, that the amounts of AB in ore prospecting anomalies are being lowered while usage in nearly all blueprints doubles!

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#68 - 2015-04-15 04:15:15 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:

No, it does not. You mine ALL the ore in the anomaly so you can get another anomaly.

You know, I heard a rumour there are these things called static belts in Null, that have even more in them than highsec, and a mix of all the ores as well. And given there are even more null systems than high, and high has no industrial anoms.... this must mean that all the ore that null currently imports could easily just come from their static belts.

You just won't be satisfied till CCP gives you absolute perfect braindead mining in the anoms will you? It's already been just handed to you on a silver platter needing only slight balancing, now you want it on the gold platter with platinum inlay as well.

Static asteroid belts contain a pittance of ore. I picked a belt at random and surveyed it — there were six roids of crokie with a scant 2400 units each. The level one ore anom, by comparison, has 38,700.

Which would you pick?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#69 - 2015-04-15 04:23:54 UTC
Querns wrote:

Static asteroid belts contain a pittance of ore. I picked a belt at random and surveyed it — there were six roids of crokie with a scant 2400 units each. The level one ore anom, by comparison, has 38,700.

Which would you pick?

Uh, I'd pick the static belt and not mine the C but cherry pick all the other ores in the belt to make my mineral income balance to output without importing from High Sec? Since constant over mining crashed C value till crying to CCP got it buffed again.
That 'pittance' of ore you are talking about happens to be about 50% more ore than is available in a highsec belt, and there are about the same number of belts on average, plus about five times the number of null systems.

So overall null supply of ore was already orders of magnitude higher than high sec could ever supply assuming some use of the anoms also. I did a survey about six months back of about 30 null systems and posted some average results in a thread at the time. There was no issue with supply of ore in Null back then, this is just catering to the null miners who don't want to do anything but perpetually cycle anoms and hate the idea of having to even enter a belt.
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#70 - 2015-04-15 04:31:18 UTC
Summary: More ISK moves from highsec's already very modest mining returns to benefit nullsec alliances. If you can't run a logistics chain to get your supplies to nullsec, you shouldn't be operating a nullsec Corp / alliance.

Personally I'm starting a nullsec relief fund because I have seen their poverty and it's a real tear-jerker.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#71 - 2015-04-15 04:33:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Summary: More ISK moves from highsec's already very modest mining returns to benefit nullsec alliances. If you can't run a logistics chain to get your supplies to nullsec, you shouldn't be operating a nullsec Corp / alliance.

Personally I'm starting a nullsec relief fund because I have seen their poverty and it's a real tear-jerker.

why should the space be so worthless in comparison, importation is only real option?
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#72 - 2015-04-15 04:40:17 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Querns wrote:

Static asteroid belts contain a pittance of ore. I picked a belt at random and surveyed it — there were six roids of crokie with a scant 2400 units each. The level one ore anom, by comparison, has 38,700.

Which would you pick?

Uh, I'd pick the static belt and not mine the C but cherry pick all the other ores in the belt to make my mineral income balance to output without importing from High Sec? Since constant over mining crashed C value till crying to CCP got it buffed again.
That 'pittance' of ore you are talking about happens to be about 50% more ore than is available in a highsec belt, and there are about the same number of belts on average, plus about five times the number of null systems.

So overall null supply of ore was already orders of magnitude higher than high sec could ever supply assuming some use of the anoms also. I did a survey about six months back of about 30 null systems and posted some average results in a thread at the time. There was no issue with supply of ore in Null back then, this is just catering to the null miners who don't want to do anything but perpetually cycle anoms and hate the idea of having to even enter a belt.

Congratulations, you've failed to understand the point of my comparison. The point was to merely illustrate how little ore is in a static belt, not to suggest that you suck only crok until you can build a house from it. Heck — I only used crokite because it was the only one whose results I could remember off hand. Forum posts don't get me to log in, sheeeeit.

Furthermore, self-limiting yourself to mining only the perfect mix of ore to build stuff is, frankly, just not that bright. It is ALWAYS far more efficient to mine the most lucrative ore you can grub up, then sell your excess to either buy minerals for production, or just buy the thing you want. CCP Fozzie and his team obviously realize this, as evident by the changes.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Gyr Altai
Pulse Industries
Knights Collective
#73 - 2015-04-15 04:43:17 UTC
As a wormholer I think we need to move mining anoms back to scannables. I can hardly remember the last time I saw a barge in a WH anomaly. I feel more people would chance it if they had that chance of seeing probes on Dscan. More targets in space is a good thing.

Hell, I'd even take a skiff out once in a while if there was nothing else going on. Same as I do with gas huffing.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#74 - 2015-04-15 04:47:05 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Summary: More ISK moves from highsec's already very modest mining returns to benefit nullsec alliances. If you can't run a logistics chain to get your supplies to nullsec, you shouldn't be operating a nullsec Corp / alliance.

Personally I'm starting a nullsec relief fund because I have seen their poverty and it's a real tear-jerker.

Nullsec is conquerable. Go carve out a slice if you want to get some. Hell, we are abandoning two of our regions come Fozziesov — go forth and conquer!

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#75 - 2015-04-15 04:56:33 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Summary: More ISK moves from highsec's already very modest mining returns to benefit nullsec alliances. If you can't run a logistics chain to get your supplies to nullsec, you shouldn't be operating a nullsec Corp / alliance.

Personally I'm starting a nullsec relief fund because I have seen their poverty and it's a real tear-jerker.

why should the space be so worthless in comparison, importation is only real option?

We import THEIR minerals / ores and yes importation is our only option. To answer your question their space is FAR from worthless. It is a fact they have so much more profitable activities that they farmout their mining already to those desiring to mine their space for them.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#76 - 2015-04-15 04:56:46 UTC
Querns wrote:

Congratulations, you've failed to understand the point of my comparison. The point was to merely illustrate how little ore is in a static belt, not to suggest that you suck only crok until you can build a house from it. Heck — I only used crokite because it was the only one whose results I could remember off hand. Forum posts don't get me to log in, sheeeeit.

Furthermore, self-limiting yourself to mining only the perfect mix of ore to build stuff is, frankly, just not that bright. It is ALWAYS far more efficient to mine the most lucrative ore you can grub up, then sell your excess to either buy minerals for production, or just buy the thing you want. CCP Fozzie and his team obviously realize this, as evident by the changes.

Except you have never surveyed a high sec belt obviously, and realised they have LESS ore than the Null belts you are busy calling useless. Yet somehow they have been supplying all your importing needs thus far. Meaning the Null belts obviously are capable of supplying your needs WITHOUT any changes to the anomalies.

Sure, you can suck forever at the most valuable ore, but by doing so you decrease it's value over time, since supply increases as a result. Hence what has happened to the ABC's, you increased supply because they were valuable, and then glutted the market.
The problem comes where you went crying to CCP to fix a self induced issue, and cried for long enough that they have changed it to artificially give you more profit again. So much for emergent game play, so much for all zones being equally valid, this is a step towards a theme park where you have to play in Null to be 'end game' otherwise you can't get anywhere or do anything.

Needed buffs to null, I'm all happy for, needless buffs like this one, yes I'll fight against because this is just pandering to null players who ALREADY have the tools they need for local industry. And are just being given more and more and more advantage now.
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#77 - 2015-04-15 04:59:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Maldiro Selkurk
Querns wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Summary: More ISK moves from highsec's already very modest mining returns to benefit nullsec alliances. If you can't run a logistics chain to get your supplies to nullsec, you shouldn't be operating a nullsec Corp / alliance.

Personally I'm starting a nullsec relief fund because I have seen their poverty and it's a real tear-jerker.

Nullsec is conquerable. Go carve out a slice if you want to get some. Hell, we are abandoning two of our regions come Fozziesov — go forth and conquer!

If I wanted to do that I wouldn't be playing in highsec. Also, using your own logic, nullsec could come farm highsec just as I do.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#78 - 2015-04-15 05:07:44 UTC
The Rorqual should be part of this month's balance pass to enable those miners to pull in more yield cause its hard work sitting in a spot chewing on a rock, then to get hot dropped on by a fleet of so-called pro-pvpers who like to gank something that cant really fight back.

Give the Rorqual some love..

this will not STOP

until the Rorqual is back on TOP!
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#79 - 2015-04-15 05:19:48 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
We import THEIR minerals / ores and yes importation is our only option.
I'll venture to geuss the value and volume of the minerals you need from null are fractional compared to what is hauled out in the same time period.

Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
To answer your question their space is FAR from worthless. It is a fact they have so much more profitable activities that they farmout their mining already to those desiring to mine their space for them.

Yes, and most of those activities don't include strip miners I'll bet. And as for renting, not everyone chooses optimal isk/hr playstyles, so I wouldn't point to that as a primary indication of comparitive profitability.

Goal of these changes isn't to simply make null miners richer, but to make the indutrialists and those farther down the resource chain, less reliant of the next JF load from highsec.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#80 - 2015-04-15 05:21:48 UTC
Milla Goodpussy wrote:
The Rorqual should be part of this month's balance pass to enable those miners to pull in more yield cause its hard work sitting in a spot chewing on a rock, then to get hot dropped on by a fleet of so-called pro-pvpers who like to gank something that cant really fight back.

Give the Rorqual some love..

this will not STOP

until the Rorqual is back on TOP!

The rorqual has as much place in this discussion as jump fatigue and mission running. Very little and only a secondary effect to be considered.

Simply hijacking a thread to get attention to something unrelated is kinda lame. And also against the forum rules.