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Another great idea for the nerf bat!

Author
Bl1SkR1N
13th HOUR
#1 - 2015-04-06 16:12:12 UTC
Hey domi lovers, can you feel it? Big smile

I'm not gonna get on a drones topic here again tho.

The problem with domies that I see comes from its past. Before ccp decided to make drones into real weapons and rehauling BS bonuses domi was already pretty good ship. Awesome ship good for mission running, rr ganks, heavy dps platforms...you name it. Inbalance happened when they got changed into pure drone ships. Bonuses and modes that would allow them to project dps over vast distances with great tracking put them in inbalance with other BSs. They can hit stuff very far away while murdering any kind of good old short range brawling doctrines with their neuts.

I don't exactly remember what were the changes to slots layout, but in current situation dominix has too many high slots, similiar to other drone ships which used to have guns in the past. I believe that lowering number of high slots by two and cpu adjusted accordingly would bring them in line with other regular BS while not hurting it on battlefields where it is balanced.

My two cents, bring the hate :)

P.S. it may be that there is another topic on dominix slots layout but I wasnt able to find it. If so please feel free to move this post into correct discussion.
Juan Mileghere
The Corporate Raiders
Safety.
#2 - 2015-04-06 17:50:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Juan Mileghere
Bl1SkR1N wrote:
Hey domi lovers, can you feel it? Big smile

I'm not gonna get on a drones topic here again tho.

The problem with domies that I see comes from its past. Before ccp decided to make drones into real weapons and rehauling BS bonuses domi was already pretty good ship. Awesome ship good for mission running, rr ganks, heavy dps platforms...you name it. Inbalance happened when they got changed into pure drone ships. Bonuses and modes that would allow them to project dps over vast distances with great tracking put them in inbalance with other BSs. They can hit stuff very far away while murdering any kind of good old short range brawling doctrines with their neuts.

I don't exactly remember what were the changes to slots layout, but in current situation dominix has too many high slots, similiar to other drone ships which used to have guns in the past. I believe that lowering number of high slots by two and cpu adjusted accordingly would bring them in line with other regular BS while not hurting it on battlefields where it is balanced.

My two cents, bring the hate :)

P.S. it may be that there is another topic on dominix slots layout but I wasnt able to find it. If so please feel free to move this post into correct discussion.

Not the worst idea, still couldn't a TFI doctrine using NOSes fight Domis well or even normal tempests...
or am I overlooking something?
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#3 - 2015-04-06 17:55:19 UTC
It is the Sentries that's broken.

Switching between Tachyon Beam Lasers/Mega Pulses, or 425mm Rails/Neutron Blaster Cannons on the fly is balanced gaem.

Smile
Bl1SkR1N
13th HOUR
#4 - 2015-04-06 18:12:34 UTC
It's kinda complicated to find out whats broken. CCP made many changes in a short period of time(drone modes, ship bonuses, drones changes) so its pretty hard to determine what exactly is broken...it requires some time to bring things to balance.

I wouldn't compare domies with TFIs since those ships are double the price. In comparison to tempests it would bring them more in a same line.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#5 - 2015-04-06 18:16:04 UTC
Bl1SkR1N wrote:
It's kinda complicated to find out whats broken.


Yes, I agrie.

Ishtar thread got unstickied - problem solved. vOv
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2015-04-06 18:18:28 UTC
Bl1SkR1N wrote:
It's kinda complicated to find out whats broken. CCP made many changes in a short period of time(drone modes, ship bonuses, drones changes) so its pretty hard to determine what exactly is broken...it requires some time to bring things to balance.


It's not that hard because NO-ONE complains about non-tracking/range bonuses hulls.

Hell, even the fearsome neut bonused geddon isn't complained about.

It's pretty simple to see where the issue lies.

* denotes range/tracking bonuses
+ denotes common complaints

Ships able to drop 5 bonused sentries
Eos
Geddon
Rattlesnake
Dominix *+
Ishtar *+
Vexor navy


Did I miss any? Tourney prizes aside.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#7 - 2015-04-06 18:19:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
afkalt is right - Cancer started when blaster bonuses on Vexor/Domi got replaced with Optimal/Tracking. Introduction of Drone Damage mods may have also been a factor.

That's like giving the current Apocalypse a 10% per level Damage bonus on top of the Optimal/Tracking range bonus.

Oh, well. vOv

P.S. Incidentally,

Amarr Battleship bonuses (per skill level):
7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range
7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret tracking speed

vs.

Gallente Battleship bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage
7.5% bonus to Drone optimal range and tracking speed

Three (Four*) bonuses vs two.

Balanced gaem

*But lets consider Domi to have 3 bonuses, since hitpoints and damage has been there since time immemorial, plus hitpoints one is pretty much needed by default.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#8 - 2015-04-06 18:52:53 UTC
mm.. remove the tracking bonus off the domi makes sense, makes the ishtar better at application but with less damage and range.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#9 - 2015-04-06 18:56:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
The three bonuses vs. two explains Domi and Ishtar use http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/66946/1/STEVE_7.png

Damage done in PVP:

Light blue is drone damage;
Orange = Energy Weps;
Dark Blue = Hybrids;
Yellow = Projectiles.

Here's a more accurate chart, if you're looking to gauge shiptype use in Eve atm: http://i.imgur.com/z4ynWV9.png

* * *

Isthar vs. Zealot bonuses:

Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):

7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed
10% bonus to Light, Medium, and Heavy Drone hit points and damage, 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hit points and damage

Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level):

5000m bonus to Drone operation range
5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed

vs.

Amarr Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):

10% reduction in Medium Energy Turret activation cost
5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret rate of fire

Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level):

10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret optimal range
5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage

Five (Six, or even Seven if you count sentries separately) Ishtar bonuses vs four (three without activation cost) on a Zealot. Smile

GFGF

Not sure what they are thinking there, but whatever - Ishtar thread got unstickied, is balanced gaem now. vOv
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2015-04-06 18:58:48 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Bl1SkR1N wrote:
It's kinda complicated to find out whats broken. CCP made many changes in a short period of time(drone modes, ship bonuses, drones changes) so its pretty hard to determine what exactly is broken...it requires some time to bring things to balance.


It's not that hard because NO-ONE complains about non-tracking/range bonuses hulls.

Hell, even the fearsome neut bonused geddon isn't complained about.

It's pretty simple to see where the issue lies.

* denotes range/tracking bonuses
+ denotes common complaints

Ships able to drop 5 bonused sentries
Eos
Geddon
Rattlesnake
Dominix *+
Ishtar *+
Vexor navy


Did I miss any? Tourney prizes aside.


Rattlesnake can't.

Typhoon fleet issue can, so can Navy Mega. People apparently don't even remember those, let alone complain about them.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#11 - 2015-04-06 19:23:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
remove 2 high slots from domi's and nerf its pg heavily too stop 6 rack heavy neut setups on domi's i would suggest the same on the geddon, drone ships have too many free highs.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2015-04-06 19:27:02 UTC
Bl1SkR1N wrote:


My two cents, bring the hate :)



I wish people would stop having that attitude towards the forum, it's not very constructive.
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#13 - 2015-04-06 19:38:20 UTC
Delete drone bonuses.

There are all our dominion

Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin

Luna Arindale
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#14 - 2015-04-06 19:39:38 UTC
While domi's get that bonus they are slow. You don't see roaming domi fleets because of this, the ishtars were op because they did the exact same dps and application as the domi, while being able to easily dictate range via speed and maneuverability. The dominix is a fat slow ship that is rather hilariously open to bombing runs against themselves. They are dangrous yes, but you will only ever see them and other battleships in limited fleet engagements. (Fights inside of an owned region of space as an example)

If you Nerf sentries then they become unviable on all other ships that can and do use them. There are more drone boats in eve, and limiting them all because of one ship ruins the diversity of fittings that exist in EvE.

In regards to removing high slots, the dominix only needs 3 to add 72KM to its drone control range. However most people fit them up for remote reps to run various forms of PvE content that exist. I have rarely seen an actual PVP fleet utilize cap chaining rr domi's to do the work of a dedicated Guardian logi wing. So I feel that removing high slots from the domi only serves to harm PvE outside of using blinged out ships.
Juan Mileghere
The Corporate Raiders
Safety.
#15 - 2015-04-06 19:43:38 UTC
Bl1SkR1N wrote:
It's kinda complicated to find out whats broken. CCP made many changes in a short period of time(drone modes, ship bonuses, drones changes) so its pretty hard to determine what exactly is broken...it requires some time to bring things to balance.

I wouldn't compare domies with TFIs since those ships are double the price. In comparison to tempests it would bring them more in a same line.

what about T1 Pests with NOSes, only issue is the fact that pests have less mids and lows than Domis, not to say the issue is your doctrine because Domis get Drone Control Range AND 4 Neuts with relative ease... plus a solid tank and assortment of utility modules.

Harvey, the Geddon is a goddamned Neut Boat, look at the bonuses... still a few highs removed from the domi and the geddon means drone control range or neut power would be something people would need to choose between

Danica, OP said bonused sentries, Rattle effectively drops a bit more than a full set with the large bonuses, Fleet Phoon and NMega aren't bonused
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#16 - 2015-04-06 19:44:53 UTC
TL;DR Half of Eve flies either Domi/Ishtar and it thus must not be touched.

Chicken Golden Eggs. Yes. (ง ͠° ͟ل͜ ͡°)ง
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2015-04-06 19:45:28 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Bl1SkR1N wrote:
It's kinda complicated to find out whats broken. CCP made many changes in a short period of time(drone modes, ship bonuses, drones changes) so its pretty hard to determine what exactly is broken...it requires some time to bring things to balance.


It's not that hard because NO-ONE complains about non-tracking/range bonuses hulls.

Hell, even the fearsome neut bonused geddon isn't complained about.

It's pretty simple to see where the issue lies.

* denotes range/tracking bonuses
+ denotes common complaints

Ships able to drop 5 bonused sentries
Eos
Geddon
Rattlesnake
Dominix *+
Ishtar *+
Vexor navy


Did I miss any? Tourney prizes aside.


Rattlesnake can't.

Typhoon fleet issue can, so can Navy Mega. People apparently don't even remember those, let alone complain about them.

bonused sentries. Although arguably the rattle has an effective 5 sentries without actually having them in number.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#18 - 2015-04-06 19:55:47 UTC
O.o are domies used that much i haven't seen one fielded in years



or is this a "i looked at it on paper and decided it was broken"
Bl1SkR1N
13th HOUR
#19 - 2015-04-06 20:29:23 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
O.o are domies used that much i haven't seen one fielded in years



or is this a "i looked at it on paper and decided it was broken"


In that case you must be literally blind.
Juan Mileghere
The Corporate Raiders
Safety.
#20 - 2015-04-06 20:59:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Juan Mileghere
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
O.o are domies used that much i haven't seen one fielded in years



or is this a "i looked at it on paper and decided it was broken"

IIRC there's a few groups with Neut Domis as a BS doctrine, CFC, Solar, and 1-2 others feel free to correct/add
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