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[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance

First post First post First post
Author
Cade Windstalker
#1861 - 2015-03-26 22:26:34 UTC
Zeus Sparta wrote:
Another possible addition or a whole separate part is the ability to convert offline Control Towers. Would also help clear up a lot of unused moons too.


You can report these if the entity that owns them no longer exists and CCP will remove them. Otherwise just war-dec the guys and shoot their stuff.
rsantos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1862 - 2015-03-26 23:03:22 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:

I would just like to point that ANYTHING that ends up limiting mobility, hull choice or the ability to disengage, will make n+1 a must and in the end you will have your trollsov dreads. That what CFC wants! You just said it! No one will out blob you.
Don't worry, you can continue using the interceptors you do now, they will definitely have max mobility, what with fastest warp, fastest align, interdiction nullification.

This thread has already been used to convince ccp that the sov laser concept is the ideal instrument to shake up sov (you could just add even more fatigue**, but this is more elegant).

Any ship with big tank shouldn't be allowed to use the sov laser, it's an option that has the most value to blobbers (specifically blobbers with blobs of big-tank ships, ie: supercaps) and therefore shouldn't be allowed to exist.


**remember how much fatigue was a major success in shaking up null?


If CCP reversed the interceptor changes I would be very happy!
Mario Putzo
#1863 - 2015-03-27 03:50:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Having a Random 4 hour window is a poor design, because it allows a group of people to essentially force people to stand around with their thumb in their ass doing nothing for 4 hours (if they choose to defend an asset). As I said earlier time is the most valuable commodity in the game, and having an unadjustable 4 hour window where nothing at all could happen is bad. Who wants to sit around for 4 hours doing nothing. No one.


I'm not sure why you would have to sit around sitting on your thumbs for 4 hours. This 4 hours window is supposed to be set when your player-base is the most active. If you're utilizing all of your space then there should be people in most if not all of your systems doing whatever they want, which means you'll know when a hostile incursion occurs you'll have some idea of numbers, and even if neither of the above are true there's an Alliance-wide mail that will go out saying "Yo! Guys! Space-thingy is being Entosis'd over here and has X time left!" at which point you'll have between 10 and 40 minutes to respond. With full occupancy around 30-40 minutes at the least. More than enough time to get everyone together into a fleet, fit up the ships, go to the bathroom, and go kick invader arse.


Surely you're joking. Either you don't understand the importance of system control in contested space, or you are just being ignorant for the sake of being ignorant.

There is not an entity in this game that is going to cede control to an attacker for an exit window during a contested timer unless they are pants on head ********.

Your synopsis is bang on for the instigation phase...but when the real event kicks off, your method will result in a loss the majority of the time, ceding control of a contested grid is ******* ******** if you actually plan on defending it...much like ceding control of a contested grid is ******* ******** if you actually plan on taking it.

For example...remember 6VDT when TEST decided they had tons of time, and CFC just said **** it we will sit in the system all day and wait for the timer because then TEST will have to fight through us just to get to the grid to defend against us. Remember how that scenario played out.

Scratch DPSing **** replace it with Entosis linking ****, and you will get the same outcome every time.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#1864 - 2015-03-27 04:18:36 UTC
Forgive me for not reading 98 pages. Just a quick question: Can I pop out of a wh and use the entosis hoo haw to mess w/ a random systems sov in the 24 hour window that said wh connection exists?
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#1865 - 2015-03-27 04:25:58 UTC
Putting a few things together from different posts, it seems like there is a good deal of concern over interceptors w/ the entosis thingy just making a mess of things.

What's the range on the entosis thinger? I was looking at the new structure fitting picture and saw 2 smartbombs in the structure high slot fittings. I would imagine that if the structure smartbomb range was enough to cover the range of an inty using the entosis thinger, then it may not be that much of a problem.

Is entosis thinger range fixed or based on the ship using it??

Am I mixing apples and oranges here?
Arrendis
TK Corp
#1866 - 2015-03-27 05:20:30 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Putting a few things together from different posts, it seems like there is a good deal of concern over interceptors w/ the entosis thingy just making a mess of things.

What's the range on the entosis thinger? I was looking at the new structure fitting picture and saw 2 smartbombs in the structure high slot fittings. I would imagine that if the structure smartbomb range was enough to cover the range of an inty using the entosis thinger, then it may not be that much of a problem.

Is entosis thinger range fixed or based on the ship using it??

Am I mixing apples and oranges here?


On the T2, the range is 250km, so functionally, the limit is the Interceptor's targeting range.

That said, the interceptors probably aren't going to be a problem.
Mario Putzo
#1867 - 2015-03-27 06:18:18 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Forgive me for not reading 98 pages. Just a quick question: Can I pop out of a wh and use the entosis hoo haw to mess w/ a random systems sov in the 24 hour window that said wh connection exists?



Yes you would be able to do that.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1868 - 2015-03-27 09:37:31 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Forgive me for not reading 98 pages. Just a quick question: Can I pop out of a wh and use the entosis hoo haw to mess w/ a random systems sov in the 24 hour window that said wh connection exists?



Yes you would be able to do that.



and that is why this new system will force people to LIVE and work on the systems they really want to keep.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Mario Putzo
#1869 - 2015-03-28 03:43:39 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Forgive me for not reading 98 pages. Just a quick question: Can I pop out of a wh and use the entosis hoo haw to mess w/ a random systems sov in the 24 hour window that said wh connection exists?



Yes you would be able to do that.



and that is why this new system will force people to LIVE and work on the systems they really want to keep.



Which is the best update this game has made in years to Null Sec, hence the plethora of Null Sec posters bitter posting about having to actively defend their space apart from just showing up to a predetermined timer fight.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1870 - 2015-03-28 04:18:28 UTC
Yes, our 0.0 nightmare will be shattered

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Ben Ishikela
#1871 - 2015-03-28 06:29:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Ben Ishikela
CCP Fozzie wrote:

(1)As much as possible, the Entosis Link capture progress should reflect which group has effective military control of the grid.

(2)The optimal strategy for fighting over a location with the Entosis Link should be to gain effective control of the grid.

This is the other side of the coin. (4)In practice it means that we should discourage mechanics that lead to indefinite stalemates over a structure or command node. This is the reason for the "no remote reps" condition on active Links. This is also the goal that trollceptors would contradict if they were to become dominant.

Here are just some thoughts. unrefined. and in no particular order Shocked

@(1)&(2):If defender has at least same "control" of the grid, no capture progress should be made. The defender is winning, if he manages to hold a stalemate. Who holds the Fortress after Battles and Sieges in human history? Thedefender owns it until they are starved out (logisitc interuption). Or the attacker breaks the defence. Therefore i think there needs to be an option to not have to chase and kill the attacker all the time if he runs pillaging though your lands and is faster (stinky pete, trollceptor,.....). The defender should just have to errect walls.
Therefore its on the attacker to break the stalemate. He has the initiative and can decide time and place. He can gather intel first of what "walls" needed to break.
hint: there are battering rams and other siege stuff available to smash the walls (see ECM, damps(some extend), big alpha dmg). If they would not be there, bad choice options then. But this should be balanced by other means than balancing just a single module.

"(2)=>(4)" is very well true out of a attacker perspective. Therefore if the attacker is lame and does not provide content, he should not be rewarded by any progress. If the defender is already commited (structure value etc.). The attacker needs to commit something to a fight also or its just trolling and should not be rewarded as much.
As stated above a defender cant hunt all the other parties in the game all the time just to defend one structure. Grand scale "stalemates" are essential to diplomacy.

Logistic and Ewar is very interesting teamplay and newbro friendly. imho please incentivice the use of it.
Please introduce more active option to counter ewar. just fit eccm is lame. remote eccm is great teamplay. also when being jammed, the "nothing can do"-awefulness for 20seconds needs to change. If lock is lost during active entosis link, the progress of cycle is lost anyway. Therefore some suggestion on ecm about reduction of cycletime and "just loose lock like ecmburst" might be viable again. Also no ewar immunity anywhere (there would be ways to buff your capital against ecm, right?).

Stalemate encourage excalation, right? If no OR looking at tactics how to outplay your opponent while fighting is boring, then go home! Cool
@(4): if "indefinite Stalemates" are a possibity, something else is broken. not just one module!!

TLDR:
Therefore i vote for remote assist still possible on active entosers.
+1 for electronic warfare use to counter logi.
After all i'd like to fly small-scale and attack whatever is undefended. Or outtank a siege for 4hours of vulnerable primetime in active logi and support battles (i would jsut have to undock and fight. And do nothing else like lots of traveling or staying awake throughout the night. therefore being "sieged" wont wear me out as a human. my capsuleer would starve on ships at some point though. but thats fine.).

Additional feature to help (2) ("status reflects control"):
If two entosis links are active (stalemate), move progress slowly to the "middle"(50%). speed affected by capture speed of both parties. move it faster, the more the progress is away from middle and vice versa. or shift the middle to anything 0-100%, depending on if system has an activity index modifier thing (0 for lvl5. 100% for inactive).

---
You can always cancel remote assist possibility in future patches, when you see that its not good. vice versa is no so possible, is it?

Ideas are like Seeds. I'd chop fullgrown trees to start a fire.

Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#1872 - 2015-03-28 08:24:24 UTC
Posting these questions again, as players are already planning their tactics and strategies for the summer, we deserve some more information.

Aiyshimin wrote:
Some specific questions on the Command Node capture event:


  • Are the Command Nodes in deadspace? (like Large FW complexes)
  • Is the exact victory condition for the event just "whoever first completes 10 nodes"?
  • Can NPC corp members use Entosis Links on structures?
  • Does the Entosis Link cycle continue without target lock?
  • Do the nodes have a visible timer for everyone on grid?


and a few more:


  • Do the nodes allow anchoring deployables in their vicinity?
  • Will the nodes have a decloaking sphere around them?


The deadspace or not part is the most important now, along with the "tug of war" specifics. Thanks!
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1873 - 2015-03-28 15:58:06 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
That said, the interceptors probably aren't going to be a problem.

CULTURAL VICTORY!

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

Miner Hottie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1874 - 2015-03-29 02:18:20 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Forgive me for not reading 98 pages. Just a quick question: Can I pop out of a wh and use the entosis hoo haw to mess w/ a random systems sov in the 24 hour window that said wh connection exists?



Yes you would be able to do that.



and that is why this new system will force people to LIVE and work on the systems they really want to keep.



Which is the best update this game has made in years to Null Sec, hence the plethora of Null Sec posters bitter posting about having to actively defend their space apart from just showing up to a predetermined timer fight.


Um we Goonswarm, live in Deklein, which has some of the highest sov indexs in all of null sec, we live the **** out our space. The ability to properly live and rat in our space causes the system sprawl you see. Ratting in a system below 0.6 is generally bad. Hence we rarely bother with them unless one of our more autistic memebrs rats rally points for the 6 of 10 escalation. If this was properly addressed (and some of fozzies comments about null sec income lead me to believe he won't touch it because its "fine") then the sprawl will continue with remaining systems held for completeness or left a wasteland.

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.

Cade Windstalker
#1875 - 2015-03-29 07:35:38 UTC
Miner Hottie wrote:
Um we Goonswarm, live in Deklein, which has some of the highest sov indexs in all of null sec, we live the **** out our space. The ability to properly live and rat in our space causes the system sprawl you see. Ratting in a system below 0.6 is generally bad. Hence we rarely bother with them unless one of our more autistic memebrs rats rally points for the 6 of 10 escalation. If this was properly addressed (and some of fozzies comments about null sec income lead me to believe he won't touch it because its "fine") then the sprawl will continue with remaining systems held for completeness or left a wasteland.


If these new structures let you dial-a-yield on the sec status of your systems then it's likely the bad areas will fade or be rented off (depending on the level of customization). The alternative is anything that's not locked down getting the crap harassed out of it because 15 minute timers and "lol goons".

I think if this system doesn't at least make it significantly harder to hold large chunks of space, "for completeness" or otherwise, then it's failed at least one of its objectives. If you can actually hold it, or its being worked by the members, then great whatever, but un-used space should be hard to defend.
Arkumord Churhee
Nice Try.
#1876 - 2015-03-29 11:37:56 UTC
Didn't read the entire thread, so my idea might actually be nothing new at all...

I'd be fine with interceptors fitting the Entosis Link, as long as:
- The Entosis Link can't be fitted together with a cloaking device
- While the entosis link is active, all other active modules are deactivated and their effect negated instantly (however receiving a cooldown lasting as long as the rest of the cycle would have lasted).

This would render the attacking ship sufficiently vulnerable so trollceptors would be easy prey, without hindering serious fleets too much.

The cooldown on modules deactivating would be there so you can't use this to insta-cancel your cyno / bastion / siege / triage / whatever.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1877 - 2015-03-29 19:41:55 UTC
Miner Hottie wrote:
Um we Goonswarm, live in Deklein, which has some of the highest sov indexs in all of null sec, we live the **** out our space. The ability to properly live and rat in our space causes the system sprawl you see. Ratting in a system below 0.6 is generally bad. Hence we rarely bother with them unless one of our more autistic memebrs rats rally points for the 6 of 10 escalation. If this was properly addressed (and some of fozzies comments about null sec income lead me to believe he won't touch it because its "fine") then the sprawl will continue with remaining systems held for completeness or left a wasteland.

A wasteland would definitely be a shakeup of sov.

But there's other ways to make a wasteland, that also make you cry.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

d0cTeR9
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1878 - 2015-03-29 23:53:34 UTC
Trollceptors are real... just go to null sec and look at all those gangs in ceptors doing w/e they want.

So when this new anti-sov module is active:
-100% speed
Can't jump/Cyno out
No remote help allowed

Been around since the beginning.

Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#1879 - 2015-03-30 11:29:24 UTC
Just make the Laser pointer things range scale to what ship its fitted to so frigs get a 10-15 km range destroyers have 15-20 cruisers get 25-35 battle cruisers something like 40-60 BS get 75-100 and caps can be 100-125 carriers dreads 150 supers 200 and titans 250
Malthraz
Malthraz.
#1880 - 2015-03-31 04:16:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Malthraz
My biggest problem with this threadnaught is that Goons are actually making some sense.

That aside, I think the main issue is that very little commitment is needed to kick off the capture process.

To change this, what I think should happen is that the initial attack should require the same capture mechanics as the final defense, with one exception. That exception being, that if the attacker cannot win the capture-the-node-game within the vulnerability window the defenders structures are safe. So it would be impossible for a lone attacker to troll their way to victory if the system had a good defensive timer bonus.

My proposed system is this:
The initially attack has to be made against the station/ihub/etc. and would still require the 10-40 minutes +2 minutes for warm up and would still have to be made during the vulnerability window. If this is successful then the various capture nodes start to spawn across the constellation. The attacker will have to capture nodes and gain a 10 node advantage (or whatever they decide is appropriate, could be fewer for the initial attack to make it a bit easier to achieve) to put the station/ihub/etc. into reinforce as per the CCP proposed system.

Even if you had only a 2x defensive time bonus, and assuming that a solo attacker had to capture 10 nodes, it would not be possible to solo their way to victory. 2 minutes warm up, 20 minutes capture, then 10 nodes multiplied by (20 minutes +2 minutes warm up) = 242 minutes of capturing (+travel time) within 240 vulnerability window. Therefore, not possible. Against a system with no defensive bonus and nobody defending, it would be possible.

The system I propose makes taking sov harder. The CCP proposed system makes trolling people way too appealing. While my proposed system does not require much of a commitment of isk by the attacker, it does require a definite commitment of time. The attacker will have the advantage because they know when and where they are going to attack. A solo or half-hearted attack will be easy to defend if people are in their system (solo attacks do not even need to be defended with a good defensive time bonus). However, a committed attacker will require defensive response. The defender may be able to scramble enough people to hold some of the systems in their constellation and may be able to capture enough of the nodes to survive through until the vulnerability window closes. So, the defender's lack of numbers and preparation is compensated by their defensive time bonus and that the attack is working against the clock.

What do you think?




In regard to the troll-ceptor, I think it could probably be taken out with a 10mn MWD Svipul. I messed around with one last night and did 14k m/s, with heat. Add links and implants and you can definitely chase down a troll-ceptor. A good troll-ceptor pilot may be able to evade a single Svipul because it handles like a barge, but at least there are options on the table. Personally, I think the link should add mass, similar to Hictor's bubble. However, there are many game-mechanic options on the table and I trust CCP (perhaps I am being naive here) to make sure the troll-ceptor does not make it into the game.