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DX9 and DX11

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Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#1 - 2015-03-26 13:20:29 UTC
Are there objective benefits to using DX11 instead of DX9? I usually keep my clients running DX9 because I figured it was more stable, but lately I've been testing it out with DX11 and it seems to give smoother framerates, although that's inherently difficult to quantify. I'm aware that there are no visual differences as of yet between the two.

So is there any reason to use one over the other? Is DX11 buggier? Does it give better performance?
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#2 - 2015-03-26 13:23:45 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Are there objective benefits to using DX11 instead of DX9? I usually keep my clients running DX9 because I figured it was more stable, but lately I've been testing it out with DX11 and it seems to give smoother framerates, although that's inherently difficult to quantify. I'm aware that there are no visual differences as of yet between the two.

So is there any reason to use one over the other? Is DX11 buggier? Does it give better performance?


With dx11 my vlc (with video running) keeps crashing when tabbing into eve. I also feel like dx11 gives me less fps ... but I have a fairly low level graphics card so ...
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#3 - 2015-03-26 13:25:43 UTC
Yeah, actually, as part of replies could you state what your graphics card and OS are? I have a GTX 860M on Windows 8.1.
Falken Falcon
#4 - 2015-03-26 13:36:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Falken Falcon
In a nutshell dx11 can make everything look better (Ssao, tesselation, etc). It also gives multi-threaded rendering so it can use your good hardware better.
That with hit to fps usually

Edit. i has no issues
win7, GTX 680 Ti

Aye, Sea Turtles
Commissar Kate
Kesukka
#5 - 2015-03-26 13:38:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Commissar Kate
I have not had any problems with DX11 myself. And yeah it does improve performance a little bit.

Windows 8.1 GTX980


Falken Falcon wrote:
In a nutshell dx11 can make everything look better (Ssao, tesselation, etc). It also gives multi-threaded rendering so it can use your good hardware better.
That with hit to fps usually


Eve has none of these things.

-k8

My Fanclub
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#6 - 2015-03-26 13:43:17 UTC
Lower end older machines like my old laptop seem to crash the client with dx11,
I don't know what that's about but I know it's a widespread thing, almost everyone I have played with has had that issue at some point, or at least complained about it.
since getting a semi decent card in my home pc ,(i previously had a crisp packet with fan taped to it in the slot ) iv been getting some better frame rates, though it can get sketchy after a patch goes live .
I can't actually tell you anything definitive but it seems a bit better with 11,.might be conformation bias though.
Win 8.1 (msi) amd r9 280

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#7 - 2015-03-26 20:10:28 UTC
So apparently my Mumble overlay doesn't work with DX11.
Commissar Kate
Kesukka
#8 - 2015-03-26 20:44:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Commissar Kate
Primary This Rifter wrote:
So apparently my Mumble overlay doesn't work with DX11.


No it does not work with DX11. Only downside to DX11 I suppose for people that like the overlay, I just turned it off anyway as it was always getting in the way.

-k8

My Fanclub
Eve Solecist
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
#9 - 2015-03-26 21:33:07 UTC
Commissar Kate wrote:
I have not had any problems with DX11 myself. And yeah it does improve performance a little bit.

Windows 8.1 GTX980


Falken Falcon wrote:
In a nutshell dx11 can make everything look better (Ssao, tesselation, etc). It also gives multi-threaded rendering so it can use your good hardware better.
That with hit to fps usually


Eve has none of these things.

Check again.

There's definitely Ambient Occlusion going on,
but I don't know if it's (a variant of crytek's) Screen Space Ambient Occlusion.

I would guess, though.

I honestly forgot if it was the post effect button, or max shaders.
The difference is clearly visible once it's turned off,
but it turns so "normal" that it's often not even noticed anymore.



Anyhow, SSAO does not need dx11. And Tesselation ... geee ........
... if CCP had stuck with the reasonable choice ...
... OpenGL ...
... we'd most likely have tesselation for years already.


I always love saying this part!
  • All incoming connection attempts are being blocked. If you want to speak to me you will find me either in Hek local, you can create a contract or make a thread about it in General Discussions. I will call you back. -
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#10 - 2015-03-26 21:45:10 UTC
there should be no visual difference. DX11 API is more efficient and makes a few things "easier" for programmers. So it might run a little faster.

However, eve's bottleneck is usually CPU not the rendering. So just pick what you want. I have it at DX11 since day 0 and i do not experience any stability issues

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
#11 - 2015-03-26 21:47:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Aralieus
So is there a difference between the two visually? My qosmio took a dump on me so I'm left with my old Toshiba laptop for the time being and the graphics card in it is pretty so old I'm wondering if playing eve with dx9 will increase my fps with graphics on high.

Not trying to take over your thread OP but someone answering my question my also shed some light onto your situation as well.

Edit: Win7, AMD Radeon HD 6480 G

Oderint Dum Metuant
Inir Ishtori
Perkone
Caldari State
#12 - 2015-03-26 22:59:56 UTC
Because of recently introduced performance issues, i just tried DX9. Got about 10 fps more(from 30 to 40+) while in Jita station. I'm running on the jurassic era computer basically - Win7, Core2Duo 3Ghz, Radeon HD5770 - so for people with better machines the difference might be not noticeable at all.
Legion Masser
KROOKBORNE
Seventh Sanctum.
#13 - 2015-03-26 23:32:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Legion Masser
Well , just swapped between the two and noticed very little to no difference

but then again I have EVE installed on a PCIE SSD and i'm running

WIN 8
i7 3770K @ 4.6ghz
Evga GTX Titan Black SC x2 ( <----- NVIDIA's Titans were cheaper and easier to get then CCP's , so I bought 2 Evil )

Whether DX9 or DX11 , EVE's fps never stood a chance Twisted

☢☢☢☢☢☢☢- Your Anger is a Gift -☢☢☢☢☢☢☢ Do you even Titan? ☢☢☢ Potato ☢☢☢Lemon☢☢☢
CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#14 - 2015-03-26 23:49:11 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Darwin
DX11 should, for most modern hardware, offer somewhat better frame rates than DX9. However, with certain driver, sofftware, and hardware combinations, there may be issues that switching to DX9 resolves.

I do not believe that we're currently doing anything visually dependent on DX11. The advantage is just performance. (I'll have to confirm this statement though, since I'm not totally certain. The differences, if any, are pretty small.)

Eve Solecist wrote:
Anyhow, SSAO does not need dx11. And Tesselation ... geee ........
... if CCP had stuck with the reasonable choice ...
... OpenGL ...
... we'd most likely have tesselation for years already.


20 years ago (when I started working in animation) OpenGL was certainly the far better design. Today, OpenGL's API is kind of a mess, and taking advantage of modern rendering hardware requires using layer upon layer of proprietary extension to achieve what DirectX exposes directly.

I've recently been hearing a bit about an AMD-originated project called Vulkan that offers a much more modern design. Sounds very interesting, and may provide a nice open alternative to DirectX in years to come.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins
Legion Masser
KROOKBORNE
Seventh Sanctum.
#15 - 2015-03-26 23:50:45 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
DX11 should, for most modern hardware, offer somewhat better frame rates than DX9. However, with certain driver, sofftware, and hardware combinations, there may be issues that switching to DX9 resolves.

I do not believe that we're currently doing anything visually dependent on DX11. The advantage is just performance. (I'll have to confirm this statement though, since I'm not totally certain. The differences, if any, are pretty small.)

Eve Solecist wrote:
Anyhow, SSAO does not need dx11. And Tesselation ... geee ........
... if CCP had stuck with the reasonable choice ...
... OpenGL ...
... we'd most likely have tesselation for years already.


20 years ago (when I started working in animation) OpenGL was certainly the far better design. Today, OpenGL's API is kind of a mess, and taking advantage of modern rendering hardware requires using layer upon layer of proprietary extension to achieve what DirectX exposes directly.

I've recently been hearing a bit about an AMD-originated project called Vulkan that offers a much more modern design. Sounds very interesting, and may provide a nice open alternative to DirectX in years to come.

AMD? Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Big smile

☢☢☢☢☢☢☢- Your Anger is a Gift -☢☢☢☢☢☢☢ Do you even Titan? ☢☢☢ Potato ☢☢☢Lemon☢☢☢
CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#16 - 2015-03-26 23:52:47 UTC
Legion Masser wrote:

AMD? Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Big smile

If it becomes a standard, it will be an open one with lots of participation from all the major players.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2015-03-26 23:54:13 UTC  |  Edited by: sabre906
The most common issue ppl are having with dx11 that can't be fixed by getting a better PC is comm overlay.

Which gets me wondering... Why don't CCP improve in-game comm so we don't have to use a third party program? The current voice come we have in game don't work half the time.

I hope it won't get deflected because "everyone worth talking to is already on ts/mumble/vent."
Marsha Mallow
#18 - 2015-03-26 23:57:25 UTC
Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions Darwin. I really enjoy reading your responses even though I have no idea what you are all babbling on about (my toaster defies me). Always nice to see a blue ticker, but it's more interesting to see Devs chat with players like this speaking from their own point of view.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#19 - 2015-03-27 00:02:57 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Darwin
sabre906 wrote:
Which gets me wondering... Why don't CCP improve in-game comm so we don't have to use a third party program? The current voice come we have in game don't work half the time.


We do test the voice feature every single time we do a mass test. If you have cases where you try to use it and it doesn't work, please file a bug report explaining exactly what you're doing and how it's not working. Unfortunately, the fact that most groups use alternative solutions makes it a little harder to track down such problems, but it's a supported feature and you should be able to rely on it.

Edit: Also, asking Mumble developers to prioritize getting their overlay working with DX11 is an option, if that's a consistent issue. :)

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#20 - 2015-03-27 00:11:18 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
The most common issue ppl are having with dx11 that can't be fixed by getting a better PC is comm overlay.

Which gets me wondering... Why don't CCP improve in-game comm so we don't have to use a third party program? The current voice come we have in game don't work half the time.

I hope it won't get deflected because "everyone worth talking to is already on ts/mumble/vent."

The biggest issue with this is simply the fact that you just cannot exert as much control over in-game comms as you can with Teamspeak/Mumble/Ventrilo. For CCP to code something that does would be a very big undertaking, and there isn't much reason to do that when the tools we have are more than sufficient. Another is the fact that you can't use comms when you're not logged into the game - if your game client crashes for example, you won't be able to alert your fleetmates to it.
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