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[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance

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Zhul Chembull
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1761 - 2015-03-21 11:19:39 UTC
I really don't see this going well. I am especially disappointed in the use of capital class ships pretty much going to waste. I pretty much thought the community was on point with sov decay instead of this ******** capture the flag idea. There is faction warfare for low sec, keep it there. Lots of great ideas have been posted by guys that have played this game for many years and understand the dynamics. The established alliances know what this will mean. This will not be good for the game.

I guess what bothers me the most is the capital ships. Part of the current coolness of eve is that a lot of new players I know work towards the big ships. They want the carrier, dread of even super. However, they do want use out of it for their time of skill training, patience and many hours of making isk. A BIG reason why you have capital ships is for sov warfare, well most the reason honestly. Don't take this use out, go back to the drawing board, suck up the ole pride and get something that makes a lot more sense which incorporates all ships in eve. This is going to fail on its face and we will be stuck with a long waiter timer for a decent sov update. Think it over a bit more.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1762 - 2015-03-22 01:28:03 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Tear Jar wrote:
The most important thing(in my mind) is that the Entosis links should be very expensive on release. You can always reduce the price as time goes on. If you make them too cheap, you can't easily increase the price later because people will have already stockpiled them.

And price is the easiest counter to troll Entosis ships. If killing troll ships is profitable enough, then people will defend their space naturally.


No, No, No, No, No. Cost cannot be used as part of the balance equation.

Have people learned nothing from Supercaps? If you make E-links a billion a piece, that is still half the cost of a carrier, the third of a cost of a suicide Dread, the cost of two T3'a, all things we throw around like they are nothing. All cost does is price out new groups; every established group, be it an existing sov-holder, wormhole dweller, or NPC null dweller, will think nothing of dropping the price of 5 Titans in to e-links on the first day they are available. Especially now Titans and Supercaps are functionally worthless for sov warfare, there is going to be more than enough isk in everyones pockets to spend any amount of isk needed.

The balance in their use must be mechanical.

Killing a titan can be very profitable...

but uh... hmm

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Mario Putzo
#1763 - 2015-03-23 01:16:38 UTC
Good changes, the amount of nullbear tears in this thread means you are doing something right!
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1764 - 2015-03-23 02:39:41 UTC
Question:

When does an opposing link start to pause progress?

In other words, if a Ebil Trollceptor rolls up on my iHub, engages his Dastardly Sovlazor. After two minutes, his link connects to the hub, and the timer begins counting down. A notification goes out.

Our Hero responds, undocking in his Drake. He warps to the iHub, seeing the Ebil Trollceptor sitting at the edge of link range, about a bazillion km away more or less. The timer is about 20 minutes at this time. As Our Hero's Drake doesn't have the ability to counter the Ebil Trollceptor - them being all invincilble and all, so he fires up his Sovlazor of Salvation. Unfortunately, as Our Hero is obviously a newbie since he's flying a Drake, he needs 5 minutes for his Sovlazor to connect to the iHub.

So, when does progress pause?

1. At the moment the defending Sovlazor is activated on the structure
2. At the moment the defending Sovlazor finishes its initial connection cycle

If 1, there's far less of a disadvantage in using a T1 sovlazor for defense, since you pause progress right away.

If 2, that gives several additional options to prevent a defender (or attacker) from interrupting your progress. If you can break their lock or force them off field before their connection cycle finishes, they won't be able to interrupt your progress. That can make ECM heavy fleets very powerful, assuming enough coordination of course. It also significantly increases the risk for using T1 links, since they have a far higher chance of being disrupted by ECM or simply not being able to complete your initial cycle before the structure is RFed.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Arrendis
TK Corp
#1765 - 2015-03-23 04:37:13 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
That can make ECM heavy fleets very powerful, assuming enough coordination of course. It also significantly increases the risk for using T1 links, since they have a far higher chance of being disrupted by ECM or simply not being able to complete your initial cycle before the structure is RFed.


Which, of course, is a large part of why this mechanic works directly against Fozzie's stated goal of 'We want this to affect fitting and ship choices as little as possible'.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1766 - 2015-03-23 04:47:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Nolak Ataru
Veskrashen wrote:
That can make ECM heavy fleets very powerful, assuming enough coordination of course. It also significantly increases the risk for using T1 links, since they have a far higher chance of being disrupted by ECM or simply not being able to complete your initial cycle before the structure is RFed.

Just an FYI, ECM (for a main-choice fleet doctrine) is not as used as damps or TD because ECM is chance based while damps and TDs aren't.
E: I mean for the actual DPS boats, not the EWAR support cruisers / frigs.
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#1767 - 2015-03-23 07:16:40 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
Some specific questions on the Command Node capture event:


  • Are the Command Nodes in deadspace? (like Large FW complexes)
  • Is the exact victory condition for the event just "whoever first completes 10 nodes"?
  • Can NPC corp members use Entosis Links on structures?
  • Does the Entosis Link cycle continue without target lock?
  • Do the nodes have a visible timer for everyone on grid?





Now that CCP is back from the festival,, could we get more details?
Wanda Fayne
#1768 - 2015-03-23 07:20:38 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:


stuff.


Question:

If a FW Militia captures SOV of a system, does that system now fly the flag of that respective Empire?

Hmmm...

"your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic" -Lan Wang-

  • - "hub humping station gamey neutral logi warspam wankery" -Ralph King-Griffin-
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#1769 - 2015-03-23 08:04:45 UTC
Wanda Fayne wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:


stuff.


Question:

If a FW Militia captures SOV of a system, does that system now fly the flag of that respective Empire?

Hmmm...


LONG LIVE THE EMPI... I mean the BLOOD COVENANT. Big smile

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#1770 - 2015-03-23 08:55:48 UTC
At the risk of re-igniting wailing about trollceptors etc, I think I have a solution to help encourage at least a token amount of commitment to attacking sov structures without removing too much freedom for small groups.

Give them all a token amount of shield HP (in the 5-10k range). This shield must be below 25% in order to activate an Entosis Link on the structure, although once activated it doesn't matter if the shield recharges providing the connection is not lost. If all the attacking ships with an active link on grid lose their lock, they have to lower the shield again to activate it again.
By giving the shield a healthy regen rate, it should be unfeasible for lone frigates to beat it solo; a few hundred DPS should be committed for up to a minute to lower the shield.

This would have the following advantages:


  • An attacker needs to be capable of inflicting at least a token amount of damage to control the area around a structure.
  • Smaller less valuable ships will typically need to commit closer to a structure, while larger vessels have more room to dictate range.
  • Electronic warfare becomes a more viable counter to ships who skirt the edge of the lock range but well outside their effective weapons range.
  • It encourages redundancy in both link and damage application. Attackers should plan around having sufficient damage ability to taken down the shield while engaging an opponent for control of the grid.
Jori McKie
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1771 - 2015-03-23 09:26:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Jori McKie
xttz wrote:
At the risk of re-igniting wailing about trollceptors etc, I think I have a solution to help encourage at least a token amount of commitment to attacking sov structures without removing too much freedom for small groups.

Give them all a token amount of shield HP (in the 5-10k range). This shield must be below 25% in order to activate an Entosis Link on the structure, although once activated it doesn't matter if the shield recharges providing the connection is not lost. If all the attacking ships with an active link on grid lose their lock, they have to lower the shield again to activate it again.
By giving the shield a healthy regen rate, it should be unfeasible for lone frigates to beat it solo; a few hundred DPS should be committed for up to a minute to lower the shield.

This would have the following advantages:


  • An attacker needs to be capable of inflicting at least a token amount of damage to control the area around a structure.
  • Smaller less valuable ships will typically need to commit closer to a structure, while larger vessels have more room to dictate range.
  • Electronic warfare becomes a more viable counter to ships who skirt the edge of the lock range but well outside their effective weapons range.
  • It encourages redundancy in both link and damage application. Attackers should plan around having sufficient damage ability to taken down the shield while engaging an opponent for control of the grid.

I agree with the concept and i actually thought about it too.
Pros:
Unused and uninhabitated systems are still relative easy to conquer
Cons:
Reintroduction of the n+1 number problem, more or less


I think the most important part is to give the defender a longer reaction time before even the capture process starts.
Current stats and mechanics as confirmed by Fozzie are
T1 Link 25km range 5min warm up cycle time
T2 Link 250km range 2min warm up cycle time
Mechanics:
Start a warm up cycle
- No notification to the sov holder, first notification when the real capture process start.
- No warp, no cloak, no cyno, AB/MWD and MJD possible, Bastion and Triage/Siege possible
- Losing lock (via off grid, damp or ECM) means you have to wait out the rest of the cycle (while can't warp) without any further progress even if you relock, no progress is saved. After that you have to restart with no progress saved.

Suggestion
- Notify the sov holder immediately when the "warm up" phase starts.
Swap the cycle time on the links as first step
T1 Link 25km range 2min warm up cycle time
T2 Link 250km range 5min warm up cycle time

In case that is still not enough add 2-5min "warm up" timer for both. Or tie the timer to the system index, the higher the index the longer the timer.
T1 with 25km range = 4-7min warm up cycle time
T2 with 250km range = 7-10min warm up cycle time

Any troll attempt with this stats will be a pain in the ass, even if the Defender can't kill the Ceptor any sort of damp, ECM will cost the trolling party so much wasted time i doubt it will be fun.
It should be enough reaction time to any troll attempt even on your outer constellation systems.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#1772 - 2015-03-23 09:29:58 UTC
I think xtt's suggestion is good, and not really n+1 related, even a small ship can push +200dps solo. The suggestion also deals elegantly with no-skill alts.

+1
Jori McKie
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1773 - 2015-03-23 09:43:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Jori McKie
Aiyshimin wrote:
I think xtt's suggestion is good, and not really n+1 related, even a small ship can push +200dps solo. The suggestion also deals elegantly with no-skill alts.

+1


Yes, it is a good suggestion but it will set an artificial limit.


Example:
10k Shield EHP with a 200 DPS recharge rate

2 Ships with 200 DPS each
Time to start the warmp up phase -> 50s

4 Ships with 200 DPS each
Time to start the warmp up phase -> 16.67s


And here is the problem it isn't a 100% n+1 problem but close. Anyway xtt's suggestion in essence buys the Defender more time to react my suggestion does the same without an artificial limit.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1774 - 2015-03-23 10:51:52 UTC
Wanda Fayne wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:


stuff.


Question:

If a FW Militia captures SOV of a system, does that system now fly the flag of that respective Empire?

Hmmm...

Well, the NPC Militia wouldn't be able to, since it's an NPC corp. FW Militia Alliances, however, should probably be able to capture and fly their own Alliance flag as usual.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1775 - 2015-03-23 10:55:31 UTC
xttz wrote:
At the risk of re-igniting wailing about trollceptors etc, I think I have a solution to help encourage at least a token amount of commitment to attacking sov structures without removing too much freedom for small groups.

Give them all a token amount of shield HP (in the 5-10k range). This shield must be below 25% in order to activate an Entosis Link on the structure, although once activated it doesn't matter if the shield recharges providing the connection is not lost.

Doesn't really change anything, just means the Trollceptor Blob spends a weapons cycle dropping the shields on everything first. The only thing this does is make sure your frigate can do at least 250ish DPS to be able to solo capture.

Creating systems to artificially limit the ship types that can contest Sov just because you don't want to have to chase interceptors all day is bad game design. Literally every single Gewn argument on this thread is why Interceptors - and only Interceptors - should play no role in contesting sov.

I have yet to see a compelling reason why they should not be allowed to do so - and the fact that they can evade gatecamps with ease is not a compelling reason in my eyes.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1776 - 2015-03-23 10:57:21 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
That can make ECM heavy fleets very powerful, assuming enough coordination of course. It also significantly increases the risk for using T1 links, since they have a far higher chance of being disrupted by ECM or simply not being able to complete your initial cycle before the structure is RFed.


Which, of course, is a large part of why this mechanic works directly against Fozzie's stated goal of 'We want this to affect fitting and ship choices as little as possible'.

Not really - there's all kinds of ways to counter ECM / damp heavy fleet comps - sitting at zero with Sebos works well, for instance. It does make kiting harder if you're totally troll fit, but other than that there's ways around it.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1777 - 2015-03-23 18:17:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Jarnis McPieksu
I'm facepalming as I'm reading this thread.

As it is clear that CCP intends to use the Entosis mechanic not only for sov (which is mostly meaningless in the grand scheme of things) but also for structures, up to outposts, it is clear that the design, as presented, is terribly broken.

As presented, this system is so hilariously biased towards giving the attacker every upside there is that I'm running out of adjectives to describe it. Attacker can spread out and choose where to start poking at things, pressure the defenders with massive number of simultaneous "capture starts" (some of which inevitably go through because there is only so many places where you can be at the same time). Attacker gets to pick when to start messing with things - defenders have to basically stand guard over all their space things throughout their prime time EVERY DAY or risk a flood of timers.

Once you have a flood of timers, attacker again gets to pick which ones they contest. Defenders have to cover every single one. They may contest none, only to come back the next day and trigger a flood of new timers. They may repeat this multiple times until you are sick and tired of standing guard and decide to skip one, only to find all your space-things burned to the ground.

As long as attacking against structures or sov facilities does not require the attacker to put any substantial assets at risk and can be attempted solo, per target, the whole system is hopelessly broken

The fact that CCP cannot apparently see this is troubling.

Everything else is unimportant detail at this time.

Edit: and for the record, PL doesn't hold any meaningful sov, I don't run any structures beyond a couple of fairly unimportant POSes. Should this go live as-described, I'd probably be among the guys burning everything to the ground and cackling maniacally. I still think it is a terrible design.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1778 - 2015-03-23 18:37:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Soldarius
Aiyshimin wrote:

some random nerd's twatter feed


Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! I cannot stop laughing. Do you even know who The Mittani is?

On subject, yeah, I'm still holding out for Entosis Links being fieldable only on link-capable ships like CBC and CS.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1779 - 2015-03-23 23:36:27 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
On subject, yeah, I'm still holding out for Entosis Links being fieldable only on link-capable ships like CBC and CS.

INB4 prophecy fleet.
Mario Putzo
#1780 - 2015-03-24 04:35:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:

As long as attacking against structures or sov facilities does not require the attacker to put any substantial assets at risk and can be attempted solo, per target, the whole system is hopelessly broken


If an alliance can not adequately defend its space or assets...than they do not deserve that space or assets.

If you are getting so many notifications you don't know what to do, you either

A) Have too much space
B) Have too much **** spread out
C) Have too few people willing to engage.

The ideal metrics behind the changes have pilots active in every system you control, there should be no capacity or minimal capacity for anyone to just show up and start entosis linking all your ****, if your pilots are active in your systems. If it is cross time zone shenanigans, then your preset "random" TZ of activity should be chalk full of bodies capable of showing up and defending.

Its not like RUS folks are going to be in mass numbers for a TZ that pops out around dinner time US. Its just not a realistically feasible suggestion to believe that. Will some, sure, will they bring US friends probably, but you should have a huge advantage in that regard. Anything during your "active" period that gets sent to a timer, is the fault of your organizational capacity or your pilots being chicken ****.

All the other **** folks complain about is just hyperbole and whine for the sake of whine.

If you can't defend it, you don't deserve to have it. Period.