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[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance

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Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1701 - 2015-03-18 02:54:24 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:

So... you won't have been able to hold sov, so you drop sov then you troll sov, making sure that folks who hold sov actually defend their sov?

Sounds like a good deal to me.

And, if you think this doesn't do away with N+1, you don't understand the concept at all. Having 1000 Trollceptors with zero tank and no rep capability on the same field as 500 guys in Gilas / Eagles / Tengus / whatever the FOTM anti-frig fit is and you'll see that it's no longer about pure numbers alone.

But hey, go ahead and keep believing that anyone who is actually interested in keeping their sov and has half a brain is in any way deterred by the idea of hordes of 100mil+ isk killmails being delivered to their doorstep on a daily basis.

Like I said, just keep on believing. Never stop. I honestly hope you're right.
I firmly believe that it's a terrible idea and that in due time, you'll be shown why.
The only way anyone could possibly believe that this isn't a prime example of poor foresight, is if they are someone who believes that "anything is better than what we have now". We've seen where that line of thinking went before.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1702 - 2015-03-18 03:00:30 UTC
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:

So... you won't have been able to hold sov, so you drop sov then you troll sov, making sure that folks who hold sov actually defend their sov?

Sounds like a good deal to me.

And, if you think this doesn't do away with N+1, you don't understand the concept at all. Having 1000 Trollceptors with zero tank and no rep capability on the same field as 500 guys in Gilas / Eagles / Tengus / whatever the FOTM anti-frig fit is and you'll see that it's no longer about pure numbers alone.

But hey, go ahead and keep believing that anyone who is actually interested in keeping their sov and has half a brain is in any way deterred by the idea of hordes of 100mil+ isk killmails being delivered to their doorstep on a daily basis.

Like I said, just keep on believing. Never stop. I honestly hope you're right.
I firmly believe that it's a terrible idea and that in due time, you'll be shown why.
The only way anyone could possibly believe that this isn't a prime example of poor foresight, is if they are someone who believes that "anything is better than what we have now". We've seen where that line of thinking went before.

And I firmly believe that anyone with half a brain are more than able to murder tankless Interceptors that can't warp for 2-5 minutes at a time. Anyone who continues to believe that somehow Trollceptors are a serious threat to sov or will accomplish anything at all against someone who is actively defending their sov is beyond me.

But hey, we're taught to think and act independently in FW. I know ya'll do things differently out there in nullbear land...

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1703 - 2015-03-18 03:08:36 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
And, if you think this doesn't do away with N+1, you don't understand the concept at all. Having 1000 Trollceptors with zero tank and no rep capability on the same field as 500 guys in Gilas / Eagles / Tengus / whatever the FOTM anti-frig fit is and you'll see that it's no longer about pure numbers alone.

Stawmannnnnnn

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1704 - 2015-03-18 03:14:01 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Stawmannnnnnn

You mean like150+ pages of TROLLLCEPPPTOOOOOR in 2 different threads and a TMC post?

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1705 - 2015-03-18 03:19:20 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Stawmannnnnnn

You mean like150+ pages of TROLLLCEPPPTOOOOOR in 2 different threads and a TMC post?

To be fair, I pointed them out, primarily because they have been the "omgwtf" thought since this whole idea came to light. I don't actually believe that they will be the threat that they are made out to be. Not because they aren't annoying (they will be, if actually used properly), but because there is a certain class of broken ship right now that could prove far more useful at this kind of role than a trollceptor. Granted, it's facing a few minor nerfs of it's own in the coming patch, but nothing that will prevent it from being used in a very similar manner. No, I am not talking about the damned Ishtar, for once.
Miner Hottie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1706 - 2015-03-18 03:21:42 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:

That's the hilarious part.
Let's say we do one day grow tired of dealing with Trollceptors if they aren't prevented somehow. Let's say we just decide to say screw it, drop Deklein, Tenal, Fountain, etc., and go hole up in Syndicate, Venal, randomlowsecwhatever. You now have thousands of bitter, disillusioned refugees, with trillions of ISK to burn, and nothing better to do than roll around all of nullsec in Trollceptors.

Trust me, it's not the CFC who will ultimately suffer under this ridiculous system.
It doesn't do away with n+1. It just makes the numbers game even more skewed in our favor than it already is.
It's okay though. Keep believing that this is a good idea.

So... you won't have been able to hold sov, so you drop sov then you troll sov, making sure that folks who hold sov actually defend their sov?

Sounds like a good deal to me.

And, if you think this doesn't do away with N+1, you don't understand the concept at all. Having 1000 Trollceptors with zero tank and no rep capability on the same field as 500 guys in Gilas / Eagles / Tengus / whatever the FOTM anti-frig fit is and you'll see that it's no longer about pure numbers alone.

But hey, go ahead and keep believing that anyone who is actually interested in keeping their sov and has half a brain is in any way deterred by the idea of hordes of 100mil+ isk killmails being delivered to their doorstep on a daily basis.


I said it before, your views are too narrow. Under fozziesov we can burn all of nullsec and we will if the system is too skewed to attack which it is. If some one turtles up and defies us we wil just apply more force until they crumble.

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.
Wanda Fayne
#1707 - 2015-03-18 03:27:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Wanda Fayne
Miner Hottie wrote:

I don't think you understand what I am saying, the broken mechanism is the link itself via making sov attakcs essentially commitment free, especially once you get beyond the 1 v 1 sov fights. Currently sov fights tend to be a series of fights over each system at different times until someones will breaks and then it's a sov grind.

Under fozziesov that goes away. We goons can attack sov accross a region in one go. Fleets of us burning null sec down. It will be glorious and we will feast on tears no matter how boring and bad the actual gameplay is.


Have you ever seen a forest after a fire burns it to the ground? It is blacken'ed and charred like a nuke went off.
And then, like magic, new vibrant growth.
None of those grow in the old forest, the trees have long since eliminated everything else that competes.

Sometimes you just gotta let it all burn.

edit. bees much prefer the regrowth anyway:)

"your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic" -Lan Wang-

  • - "hub humping station gamey neutral logi warspam wankery" -Ralph King-Griffin-
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1708 - 2015-03-18 03:28:37 UTC
Miner Hottie wrote:
I said it before, your views are too narrow. Under fozziesov we can burn all of nullsec and we will if the system is too skewed to attack which it is. If some one turtles up and defies us we wil just apply more force until they crumble.

And like I've said before, no Trollceptor will ever make a single structure vulnerable in any space actively occupied by an appropriately sized competent group. You will not burn a single thing that's defended.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Miner Hottie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1709 - 2015-03-18 04:09:17 UTC
Wanda Fayne wrote:
Miner Hottie wrote:

I don't think you understand what I am saying, the broken mechanism is the link itself via making sov attakcs essentially commitment free, especially once you get beyond the 1 v 1 sov fights. Currently sov fights tend to be a series of fights over each system at different times until someones will breaks and then it's a sov grind.

Under fozziesov that goes away. We goons can attack sov accross a region in one go. Fleets of us burning null sec down. It will be glorious and we will feast on tears no matter how boring and bad the actual gameplay is.


Have you ever seen a forest after a fire burns it to the ground? It is blacken'ed and charred like a nuke went off.
And then, like magic, new vibrant growth.
None of those grow in the old forest, the trees have long since eliminated everything else that competes.

Sometimes you just gotta let it all burn.

edit. bees much prefer the regrowth anyway:)


As a proud member of the AUTZ I live bushfires every year and it can take a decade for the bush to properly recover and that is Australian eucalyptus which is adapted to being burnt.

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1710 - 2015-03-18 04:14:25 UTC
Miner Hottie wrote:
As a proud member of the AUTZ I live bushfires every year and it can take a decade for the bush to properly recover and that is Australian eucalyptus which is adapted to being burnt.

Fortunately a few short months after Phase 2 sets null on fire and burns it to the ground, and a hundred little groups plant their flag in the now worthless space, Phase 3 drops and makes all the work of holding Fozziesov worth it again - and the wars begin anew.

It's almost like CCP's new 6 week development cycle allows them to rapidly roll out new systems and mechanics and thereby keep things from stagnating like they did in the past.

Who'da thunk it?

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Miner Hottie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1711 - 2015-03-18 04:25:26 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Miner Hottie wrote:
As a proud member of the AUTZ I live bushfires every year and it can take a decade for the bush to properly recover and that is Australian eucalyptus which is adapted to being burnt.

Fortunately a few short months after Phase 2 sets null on fire and burns it to the ground, and a hundred little groups plant their flag in the now worthless space, Phase 3 drops and makes all the work of holding Fozziesov worth it again - and the wars begin anew.

It's almost like CCP's new 6 week development cycle allows them to rapidly roll out new systems and mechanics and thereby keep things from stagnating like they did in the past.

Who'da thunk it?


No you *****, I am saying using forest fires as an analogy is really bad.

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.
Wanda Fayne
#1712 - 2015-03-18 04:50:25 UTC
Miner Hottie wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
Miner Hottie wrote:
As a proud member of the AUTZ I live bushfires every year and it can take a decade for the bush to properly recover and that is Australian eucalyptus which is adapted to being burnt.

Fortunately a few short months after Phase 2 sets null on fire and burns it to the ground, and a hundred little groups plant their flag in the now worthless space, Phase 3 drops and makes all the work of holding Fozziesov worth it again - and the wars begin anew.

It's almost like CCP's new 6 week development cycle allows them to rapidly roll out new systems and mechanics and thereby keep things from stagnating like they did in the past.

Who'da thunk it?


No you *****, I am saying using forest fires as an analogy is really bad.


It's bad if you are the lumber company, I suppose.

Otherwise it is necessary for the health of an ecosystem. I think the analogy is applicable to Eve.
And CCP seems determined to give everyone a torch.

"your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic" -Lan Wang-

  • - "hub humping station gamey neutral logi warspam wankery" -Ralph King-Griffin-
Miner Hottie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1713 - 2015-03-18 05:04:38 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Miner Hottie wrote:
I said it before, your views are too narrow. Under fozziesov we can burn all of nullsec and we will if the system is too skewed to attack which it is. If some one turtles up and defies us we wil just apply more force until they crumble.

And like I've said before, no Trollceptor will ever make a single structure vulnerable in any space actively occupied by an appropriately sized competent group. You will not burn a single thing that's defended.



Competence, will, skill and ability melts in the face of your bubble wrapped station and pos, with 150 domis standing ready to blap you.

Nulli couldn't stop us deadzoning their staging system. What makes you think you or anyone else will do better? Troll ceptors will roll most sov, the leftovers will be given the above treatment. It might not happen straight away, but 3000 odd null sec systems to burn do take a little bit of time.

You have to get out of this narrow, simplistic 1 v 1 or general small gang epeen polishing warfare exercise and think big. See the possibilities; fozziesov is like pouring petrol over all of new enden and handing everyone, including the neighbourhood gang of sociopaths a box of matches and then expecting everyone to just light small fire's to keep them warm. Some us just want to see the world burn and who cares who gets hurt.

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.
Wanda Fayne
#1714 - 2015-03-18 05:13:54 UTC
Miner Hottie wrote:

You have to get out of this narrow, simplistic 1 v 1 or general small gang epeen polishing warfare exercise and think big. See the possibilities; fozziesov is like pouring petrol over all of new enden and handing everyone, including the neighbourhood gang of sociopaths a box of matches and then expecting everyone to just light small fire's to keep them warm. Some us just want to see the world burn and who cares who gets hurt.


I'll bring the marshmallows
(and an entosis laser)

Don't build what you can't afford to lose?

"your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic" -Lan Wang-

  • - "hub humping station gamey neutral logi warspam wankery" -Ralph King-Griffin-
Miner Hottie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1715 - 2015-03-18 05:44:06 UTC
Wanda Fayne wrote:
Miner Hottie wrote:

You have to get out of this narrow, simplistic 1 v 1 or general small gang epeen polishing warfare exercise and think big. See the possibilities; fozziesov is like pouring petrol over all of new enden and handing everyone, including the neighbourhood gang of sociopaths a box of matches and then expecting everyone to just light small fire's to keep them warm. Some us just want to see the world burn and who cares who gets hurt.


I'll bring the marshmallows
(and an entosis laser)

Don't build what you can't afford to lose?


Don't hold sov if goons can take it off you.

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.
Kristian Hackett
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1716 - 2015-03-18 06:22:54 UTC
Miner Hottie wrote:
I said it before, your views are too narrow. Under fozziesov we can burn all of nullsec and we will if the system is too skewed to attack which it is. If some one turtles up and defies us we wil just apply more force until they crumble.

So essentially, what you're saying is that CCP's goals of load balancing the servers here is basically going to go out the window because GSF is going to bring the full brunt of its military might down upon anyone willing to take a stand.

Well, CCP Fozzie, you heard 'em. So much for your hopes of load balancing across the constellation, the mischievous player base is still going to smash your servers to bits. Bring on the TiDi!Twisted

Aircraft Maintenance - Using a high school diploma to fix what a college degree just f***ed up. "Life is too short to drink cheap beer."
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1717 - 2015-03-18 06:25:07 UTC
Miner Hottie wrote:
Wanda Fayne wrote:
Miner Hottie wrote:

You have to get out of this narrow, simplistic 1 v 1 or general small gang epeen polishing warfare exercise and think big. See the possibilities; fozziesov is like pouring petrol over all of new enden and handing everyone, including the neighbourhood gang of sociopaths a box of matches and then expecting everyone to just light small fire's to keep them warm. Some us just want to see the world burn and who cares who gets hurt.


I'll bring the marshmallows
(and an entosis laser)

Don't build what you can't afford to lose?


Don't hold sov if goons can take it off you.

No wonder why massadeath will be the one to end us

they don't have any sov.


(Or perhaps PL? They hold moons... and no sov so)

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Celesae
Clan Shadow Wolf
Tactical Narcotics Team
#1718 - 2015-03-18 06:42:59 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:

Personally I no longer bother doing any PvE whatsoever anymore because the experience is so unbearable. I'd rather pay real money and sell a plex every few months to avoid any PvE.


Sounds like CCP's nerfs have things working as intended. Quite honestly, I see a lot of changes as having "trickle-down" effects resulting in that.
Miner Hottie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1719 - 2015-03-18 06:51:47 UTC
Kristian Hackett wrote:
Miner Hottie wrote:
I said it before, your views are too narrow. Under fozziesov we can burn all of nullsec and we will if the system is too skewed to attack which it is. If some one turtles up and defies us we wil just apply more force until they crumble.

So essentially, what you're saying is that CCP's goals of load balancing the servers here is basically going to go out the window because GSF is going to bring the full brunt of its military might down upon anyone willing to take a stand.

Well, CCP Fozzie, you heard 'em. So much for your hopes of load balancing across the constellation, the mischievous player base is still going to smash your servers to bits. Bring on the TiDi!Twisted


Let us all have a moments silence for the hamster of CCP Sad

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.
Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#1720 - 2015-03-18 08:43:18 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Miner Hottie wrote:
I said it before, your views are too narrow. Under fozziesov we can burn all of nullsec and we will if the system is too skewed to attack which it is. If some one turtles up and defies us we wil just apply more force until they crumble.

And like I've said before, no Trollceptor will ever make a single structure vulnerable in any space actively occupied by an appropriately sized competent group. You will not burn a single thing that's defended.


I think GSF has too many people too. Phoebe Freeport republic has just the right density, and should be the model for which all nullsec alliances are built on.

For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/

Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"