These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1541 - 2015-03-13 18:14:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Jessy Andersteen wrote:
There is no issue with the Link and the ceptor: If a defender ally couln't bring a Maulus,a Griffin, an hyena, a keres, a razu, a lachesis, a rapier or an huggin on the grid means only one thing: sovereignty must be lose.

Trollceptor is a myth: farmers in null sec only want a nerf about the interceptor: they want to be safe with their farm ship in anoms, that's all.

yes yes of course. our tears, massdeath will end us, blah blah blah

better go buy your interceptors and fits now rather than after everyone else has driven up the price. wouldn't want to be overpaying to end our 0.0 nightmare

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Jori McKie
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1542 - 2015-03-13 18:15:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Jori McKie
Current stats and mechanics as confirmed by Fozzie are
T1 Link 25km range 5min warm up cycle time
T2 Link 250km range 2min warm up cycle time
Mechanics:
Start a warm up cycle
- No notification to the sov holder, first notification when the real capture process start.
- No warp, no cloak, no cyno, AB/MWD and MJD possible, Bastion and Triage/Siege possible
- Losing lock (via off grid, damp or ECM) means you have to wait out the rest of the cycle (while can't warp) without any further progress even if you relock, no progress is saved. After that you have to restart with no progress saved.


Suggestion
- Notify the sov holder immediately when the "warm up" phase starts.
Swap the cycle time on the links as first step
T1 Link 25km range 2min warm up cycle time
T2 Link 250km range 5min warm up cycle time

In case that is still not enough add 2-5min "warm up" timer for both. Or tie the timer to the system index, the higher the index the longer the timer.
T1 with 25km range = 4-7min warm up cycle time
T2 with 250km range = 7-10min warm up cycle time

Any troll attempt with this stats will be a pain in the ass, even if the Defender can't kill the Ceptor any sort of damp, ECM will cost the trolling party so much wasted time i doubt it will be fun.
It should be enough reaction time to any troll attempt even on your outer constellation systems.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#1543 - 2015-03-13 18:36:15 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Kristian Hackett wrote:
All of the current discussion from the past 5 pages
...ignores the previous 70 where small hulls were basically argued to death as being a non-issue for suitably prepared defenders.

Except they're not.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1544 - 2015-03-13 18:40:13 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Kristian Hackett wrote:
All of the current discussion from the past 5 pages
...ignores the previous 70 where small hulls were basically argued to death as being a non-issue for suitably prepared defenders.

Except they're not.

Still waiting to hear how they outrun a 10mn tactical destroyer whilst their entosis cycle ends. So yeah, they are.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1545 - 2015-03-13 18:41:03 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Kristian Hackett wrote:
All of the current discussion from the past 5 pages
...ignores the previous 70 where small hulls were basically argued to death as being a non-issue for suitably prepared defenders.

Except they're not.

Yes let's just claim that the problem is totally solved.

Anyway fozzie basically posted "oh yeah it's fine" so it doesn't matter they're already convinced. Aren't you proud? Your F&I thread strategy has helped cement the methods (sov lasers & interceptors) that will allow you to -finally- end our 0.0 dream.

You should be proud, your posting op was a great success in achieving the strategic objective.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Yroc Jannseen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1546 - 2015-03-13 19:17:00 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Kristian Hackett wrote:
All of the current discussion from the past 5 pages
...ignores the previous 70 where small hulls were basically argued to death as being a non-issue for suitably prepared defenders.

Except they're not.

Still waiting to hear how they outrun a 10mn tactical destroyer whilst their entosis cycle ends. So yeah, they are.


Well the reality is, in Eve it usually doesn't matter if there is a paper counter to a mechanic that is being abused and makes people's lives miserable. A lot of people will argue there were counters to drone assist.

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1547 - 2015-03-13 19:21:56 UTC
Yroc Jannseen wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Kristian Hackett wrote:
All of the current discussion from the past 5 pages
...ignores the previous 70 where small hulls were basically argued to death as being a non-issue for suitably prepared defenders.

Except they're not.

Still waiting to hear how they outrun a 10mn tactical destroyer whilst their entosis cycle ends. So yeah, they are.


Well the reality is, in Eve it usually doesn't matter if there is a paper counter to a mechanic that is being abused and makes people's lives miserable. A lot of people will argue there were counters to drone assist.

Basically, it's up to use to actually do it.

And like always people will be like "oooh please dooooooo" and then later on it's like "ugggh this sucks, someone (ie: ccp) stop themmmm"

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1548 - 2015-03-13 20:08:20 UTC
Note that if, say, a coalition that exists just to destroy us abuses trolling sov to end us, it will be a magnificant op success. Like a natural-20 sort of op success.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1549 - 2015-03-13 21:03:32 UTC
Kristian Hackett wrote:
All of the current discussion from the past 5 pages is why I feel that Cruiser-class ships and below should only be able to fit the short range, long time T1 module. The long range, short time T2 should only be available to BC-class ships and above. No trollceptor issues, no T3s running about being a thorn in everybody's backsides, and it will encourage a lot of variations in fleet sizes and tactics.


No, an agility/speed interceptor with even a T1 module is going to be a problem, because the fact is with every possible situation, if the trollceptor feels that he is going to be at ANY sort of risk, EVEN WITH THE WARP RESTRICTION, they can just burn away with prop mod, away from the structure, outrunning from the defenders at 4500m/s without links, or implants or even without T2 rigs. Trollceptor will end up breaking the grid by pulling distance insanely fast anyway, so essentially, this cheap ship will be a NO RISK NO COMMITMENT means of contesting sovereignty.

And no, before any no-commitment type trolls try to lie and deceive anyone, you can't realistically probe down a frigate running at 4000m/s+ speeds, by the time the prober lands on the probed down position, trollceptor is already 100k away!

You can't catch a trollceptor on gates either, since the trollceptor manages to reach <2 second align time (insta warp) with his speed/agility fit. And bubbles, they don't stop interceptors.

This means NO COMMITMENT WHEN FLYING THROUGH GATES, BUBBLE IMMUNITY, NO COMMITMENT WHILE ON GRID WITH EVEN T1 ENTOSIS MODULE ACTIVE ON A SOV STRUCTURE! AT NO TIME THE TROLLCEPTOR PUTS ITSELF (AN ALREADY CHEAP FRIGATE) AT RISK WHILE SUCCESSFULLY CONTESTING SOVEREIGNTY.
Gevlon Goblin
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1550 - 2015-03-13 21:33:52 UTC
Alp Khan wrote:

And no, before any no-commitment type trolls try to lie and deceive anyone, you can't realistically probe down a frigate running at 4000m/s+ speeds, by the time the prober lands on the probed down position, trollceptor is already 100k away!


Actually you can, just ask anyone in Miniluv. The task isn't essentially different from landing at zero on a moving miner. Yes, I know, miners are slower, but small blasters also have smaller optimal than Hyena webs. You need a scout who is in line with the 1-2M km offgrid safe the catcher will come:

Catcher --- Scout ---- Troll

The scout watches transversal speed. When the trollceptor has low transversal, it flies towards the scout. Flight time from a near perch is about 6-8 secs. So probe, warp to 30, you'll land right on it.

Not like it would matter, he just shrugs, grabs another trollceptor and comes again.

My blog: greedygoblin.blogspot.com
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1551 - 2015-03-13 21:39:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
Alp Khan wrote:

And no, before any no-commitment type trolls try to lie and deceive anyone, you can't realistically probe down a frigate running at 4000m/s+ speeds, by the time the prober lands on the probed down position, trollceptor is already 100k away!


Actually you can, just ask anyone in Miniluv. The task isn't essentially different from landing at zero on a moving miner. Yes, I know, miners are slower, but small blasters also have smaller optimal than Hyena webs. You need a scout who is in line with the 1-2M km offgrid safe the catcher will come:

Catcher --- Scout ---- Troll

The scout watches transversal speed. When the trollceptor has low transversal, it flies towards the scout. Flight time from a near perch is about 6-8 secs. So probe, warp to 30, you'll land right on it.

Not like it would matter, he just shrugs, grabs another trollceptor and comes again.

no no no

this is the point where you go "oh ho ho I can't wait get get all your interceptor killmails muahahahaha come at my sov bro"

after making this whole argument why you can catch the thing, you can't just say "oh they can get another". At the very least say "aha and then you're out some stupendous amount of isk" or something

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#1552 - 2015-03-14 00:28:45 UTC
Well this thread has slowed considerably.
SoCal Stoli Rotsuda
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1553 - 2015-03-14 01:32:57 UTC  |  Edited by: SoCal Stoli Rotsuda
TBH, I'm not getting most of the concern here.

As I understand the new system, if you already own sov, the only thing you have to do is to have someone with an Entosis link at your structure at the start of the Vulnerability Period, link up for two uncontested minutes, and - boom! - your structure is safe for another 24 hours. You've "activated" the link to protect the structure.

Per Fozzie's original post:

"The Entosis Link is used for all kinds of manipulation of these structures. In general, activating an Entosis Link on a structure you own will activate and protect it, while activating an Entosis Link on a structure you do not own will disable, reinforce or capture it."

Does the system advertise, somehow, when the Vulnerability Period starts? If not, the owner is at even more of an advantage - you know exactly the moment you need to be there to activate your link and start your two-minute timer, and an aggressor needs to guess, or obtain that info via intel.

Even if an aggressor knows when the structure becomes vulnerable, they'll have to keep their link active for anywhere up to 4x longer than the owner - who, presumably, will be trying to interfere with the aggressor's activities, while having their own link active! A single interceptor (or most any other ship) is not going to be successful in that endeavor if faced with even half-hearted opposition. Presumably, an actively-held system will have at least the aforementioned half-hearted effort to get their own Entosis link up to activate the protection mode.
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1554 - 2015-03-14 03:35:26 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Well this thread has slowed considerably.


Eventually everybody gets tired of running laps.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
Arrendis
TK Corp
#1555 - 2015-03-14 03:53:26 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Well this thread has slowed considerably.


Eventually everybody gets tired of running laps.

m


Just waiting to see if there will be a reply.
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1556 - 2015-03-14 05:17:36 UTC
SoCal Stoli Rotsuda wrote:
TBH, I'm not getting most of the concern here.

As I understand the new system, if you already own sov, the only thing you have to do is to have someone with an Entosis link at your structure at the start of the Vulnerability Period, link up for two uncontested minutes, and - boom! - your structure is safe for another 24 hours. You've "activated" the link to protect the structure.

Per Fozzie's original post:

"The Entosis Link is used for all kinds of manipulation of these structures. In general, activating an Entosis Link on a structure you own will activate and protect it, while activating an Entosis Link on a structure you do not own will disable, reinforce or capture it."

Does the system advertise, somehow, when the Vulnerability Period starts? If not, the owner is at even more of an advantage - you know exactly the moment you need to be there to activate your link and start your two-minute timer, and an aggressor needs to guess, or obtain that info via intel.

Even if an aggressor knows when the structure becomes vulnerable, they'll have to keep their link active for anywhere up to 4x longer than the owner - who, presumably, will be trying to interfere with the aggressor's activities, while having their own link active! A single interceptor (or most any other ship) is not going to be successful in that endeavor if faced with even half-hearted opposition. Presumably, an actively-held system will have at least the aforementioned half-hearted effort to get their own Entosis link up to activate the protection mode.



The new system will do nothing for null. If the big alliances have nothing to go to war over it will end up with them just trolling the hell out of anyone who tries to set up shop.

They have been stagnant much too long and have the ships, isk, and the blob to do as they wish. Only boredom and attrition will allow for a change in null.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1557 - 2015-03-14 05:53:17 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Well this thread has slowed considerably.

Eventually everybody gets tired of running laps.

Just waiting to see if there will be a reply.

everyone agrees it's perfectly balanced and ready for prime time

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1558 - 2015-03-14 06:39:29 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Well this thread has slowed considerably.

Eventually everybody gets tired of running laps.

Just waiting to see if there will be a reply.

everyone agrees it's perfectly balanced and ready for prime time


No, but concerns have been voiced and hear. One week to fanfest, months to June

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
SilentAsTheGrave
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1559 - 2015-03-14 07:49:03 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Well this thread has slowed considerably.

Eventually everybody gets tired of running laps.

Just waiting to see if there will be a reply.

everyone agrees it's perfectly balanced and ready for prime time


No, but concerns have been voiced and hear. One week to fanfest, months to June

m

Can you please poke CCP Fozzie on what details will be in the notifications? Will it be just like the ones now where it lists everything under the sun or something simple like just the system? I don't think that would be too difficult to get a response.
SilentAsTheGrave
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1560 - 2015-03-14 07:52:10 UTC
SoCal Stoli Rotsuda wrote:
TBH, I'm not getting most of the concern here.

As I understand the new system, if you already own sov, the only thing you have to do is to have someone with an Entosis link at your structure at the start of the Vulnerability Period, link up for two uncontested minutes, and - boom! - your structure is safe for another 24 hours. You've "activated" the link to protect the structure.

Per Fozzie's original post:

"The Entosis Link is used for all kinds of manipulation of these structures. In general, activating an Entosis Link on a structure you own will activate and protect it, while activating an Entosis Link on a structure you do not own will disable, reinforce or capture it."

Does the system advertise, somehow, when the Vulnerability Period starts? If not, the owner is at even more of an advantage - you know exactly the moment you need to be there to activate your link and start your two-minute timer, and an aggressor needs to guess, or obtain that info via intel.

Even if an aggressor knows when the structure becomes vulnerable, they'll have to keep their link active for anywhere up to 4x longer than the owner - who, presumably, will be trying to interfere with the aggressor's activities, while having their own link active! A single interceptor (or most any other ship) is not going to be successful in that endeavor if faced with even half-hearted opposition. Presumably, an actively-held system will have at least the aforementioned half-hearted effort to get their own Entosis link up to activate the protection mode.

Unless I missed something; doing a daily Entosis Link on your sov system for two minutes will not protect it for the next 24 hours. Fozzie also stated that there will be a notification alliance wide after the warm up period has ended and the cycle begins on the sov thing.