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The Little HAC that Couldn't: Muninn Duscussion
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J A Aloysiusz
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2015-03-13 17:56:11 UTC  |  Edited by: J A Aloysiusz
Cerberus. Zealot. Muninn. Ishtar.

Long ago, the four great HACs lived together in harmony. Then everything changed when the Ishtar nation attacked. Only CCP Fozzie, master of all four elements...

But in all seriousness: This is tied to the many "ishtar OP" threads, but specifically focusing on the Muninn.

The Muninn used to have a cool niche as a kitey shield arty boat, but this was entirely nullified by the Ishtar. Even the post-nerf sentry shieldtar will do more DPS with comparable alpha at multiple times the range.

So I'll pose two questions:

1) Are others in agreeance that the Muninn is currently without a niche, and occupies the "ugly duckling" slot in the HAC lineup?

2) What changes would you propose to the Muninn, in order to strengthen its position within the HAC lineup?

Please keep the Ishtar OP comments in the "[Scylla] Ishtars" thread.

o7
J A Aloysiusz
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2015-03-13 18:05:16 UTC  |  Edited by: J A Aloysiusz
I guess I'll also include my personal opinion:

As a bare minimum, I think the Muninn should have enough PWG to fit 720's with a reasonable armor tank and propulsion. Its bonuses are clearly oriented towards arty, and its slot layout towards armor, yet they are very difficult to fit together.

Another issue is the polarity of the armor resistances; 90% base EM resistance and 10% base Explosive makes it very difficult to face any ship/fleet that can choose damage types. This, however, is also true of the loki, so perhaps a strengthening of the armor hitpoints and modification of fitting restrictions would help resolve this issue for the muninn.
Ix Method
Doomheim
#3 - 2015-03-13 19:04:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Ix Method
Not sure you can look at it in isolation tbh, most of the Minmatar T2 ships are a bit blergh. Ideally there'd be a clear vision for Minmatar that the Muninn can slot into, rather than buff/nerf/hope.

Honestly both Amarr and Minmatar really suffer from being a mix of before and after the changes to racial weapon types, getting bonuses that can make half decent ships in isolation but often work infinitely better of one particular size of ship, leaving the others lacklustre.

Travelling at the speed of love.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#4 - 2015-03-13 19:19:11 UTC
Move a low or 2 to a mid. Either add more PG to the hull or reduce fitting requirements of arty. Those 2 things would make it better at its role and favor the bonuses better.

Armor arty only works in fleet settings. But zealots tend to work better (or as OP mentioned, ishtars) due to better projection and damage. In a solo or small gang role, it doesnt synergize well. Its slow, and fitting armor tank makes it slower. Any frig can just zoom ontop and effectively ruin you.

I love arty boats, and really like the muninn, but the mids ruin it. The only niche i found was a single LSE/web/mwd and fill the lows with TE/gyro/nano. Then i would fly around blapping frigs with titanium sabot. Problem is, a lot of ships do this better, and cheaper.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
J A Aloysiusz
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2015-03-13 19:46:02 UTC
Ix Method wrote:
Not sure you can look at it in isolation tbh, most of the Minmatar T2 ships are a bit blergh. Ideally there'd be a clear vision for Minmatar that the Muninn can slot into, rather than buff/nerf/hope.

Honestly both Amarr and Minmatar really suffer from being a mix of before and after the changes to racial weapon types, getting bonuses that can make half decent ships in isolation but often work infinitely better of one particular size of ship, leaving the others lacklustre.


That's a valid point about general t2 minmatar. The more-used T2 minmatar ships seem to be mostly delegated to a support role - the Sabre, Huginn, and Rapier come to mind here.

The wolf is certainly in the same boat as the muninn. I used to fly it nano arty fit, but this was nullified by the introduction of RLMs a while back. Currently, it feels to me like there's almost no "right way" to fly a wolf, much like the Muninn.

Your thoughts on the Svipul? Is the svipul (even though technically T3) a good representation of what T2 Minmatar should be?

I'm not sure I agree with/understand the idea of Amarr being mixed. Are you referring to guns, missiles and drones?
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#6 - 2015-03-13 19:55:35 UTC
J A Aloysiusz wrote:
Ix Method wrote:
Not sure you can look at it in isolation tbh, most of the Minmatar T2 ships are a bit blergh. Ideally there'd be a clear vision for Minmatar that the Muninn can slot into, rather than buff/nerf/hope.

Honestly both Amarr and Minmatar really suffer from being a mix of before and after the changes to racial weapon types, getting bonuses that can make half decent ships in isolation but often work infinitely better of one particular size of ship, leaving the others lacklustre.




Your thoughts on the Svipul? Is the svipul (even though technically T3) a good representation of what T2 Minmatar should be?


Yes. The svipul easily eclipses the wolf/jag in their respective roles. I see almost no reason to fly minny AFs now. If properly fit, the svipul has an almost 2k volley and can go 3200-3400m/s in prop mode. Plus it can fit a tank after 6 280s.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
J A Aloysiusz
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2015-03-13 20:08:57 UTC  |  Edited by: J A Aloysiusz
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Move a low or 2 to a mid. Either add more PG to the hull or reduce fitting requirements of arty. Those 2 things would make it better at its role and favor the bonuses better.
...



What about a high slot to a mid? Minmatar is the only race in which both HACs have a utility high slot, and it feels a little bit wasted to me.

The utility high slot could be used for a defensive (small, due to PWG issues) neut, but is this more valuable than a defensive web, better armor projection, or more shield tank? Could the reallocation of that high slot make a difference in helping it become a more efficient dedicated gunboat?
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#8 - 2015-03-13 20:28:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Its in a very odd place currently which makes me a bit sad, bonuses are a bit at odds to each other, one of the few ships with the fittings for arty but no longer really works in that role.

I see quite a few people want to see it turned into an armour brawler but would be nice to have atleast 1 viable arty platform.

At the very minimum IMO it should be dropped to 4 turret slots and the damage bonus increased to compensate and the extra slot freed up re-used either as a mid or low - its ship line IIRC typically has a utility high so not a fan of removing that to change to mid or low.
Gaan Cathal
Angry Mustellid
#9 - 2015-03-14 03:01:15 UTC
J A Aloysiusz wrote:

That's a valid point about general t2 minmatar. The more-used T2 minmatar ships seem to be mostly delegated to a support role - the Sabre, Huginn, and Rapier come to mind here.

The wolf is certainly in the same boat as the muninn. I used to fly it nano arty fit, but this was nullified by the introduction of RLMs a while back. Currently, it feels to me like there's almost no "right way" to fly a wolf, much like the Muninn.

Your thoughts on the Svipul? Is the svipul (even though technically T3) a good representation of what T2 Minmatar should be?

I'm not sure I agree with/understand the idea of Amarr being mixed. Are you referring to guns, missiles and drones?


It's a valid point about all Tech 2. They've been eclipsed by Tech 3 equivalents that sport tank and firepower that belong on a class above with no downside beyond a price increase (and balancing by cost has never, ever worked) the only reason the Ishtar bucked the trend is the hilariously broken relationship with Sentries.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#10 - 2015-03-14 03:14:58 UTC
J A Aloysiusz wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Move a low or 2 to a mid. Either add more PG to the hull or reduce fitting requirements of arty. Those 2 things would make it better at its role and favor the bonuses better.
...



What about a high slot to a mid? Minmatar is the only race in which both HACs have a utility high slot, and it feels a little bit wasted to me.

The utility high slot could be used for a defensive (small, due to PWG issues) neut, but is this more valuable than a defensive web, better armor projection, or more shield tank? Could the reallocation of that high slot make a difference in helping it become a more efficient dedicated gunboat?


Utility high is very useful for long range boats. Gives you neut power, which makes it harder for frigs to keep tackle. Or if you fit a/c's, a good way to keep an enemy pinned.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2015-03-14 03:30:10 UTC
I'd say take a high for a mid, realistically speaking you don't have the grid/CPU for a RLML or SB and you definitely don't have the cap and fitting for a neut. you could fit 650s to fix this but than you get a turret with bad DPS, Tracking, projection and unremarkable volley.

that said A LOT of matari ships should lose utility highs, most of them don't have the fitting, cap, or mids for Neuts anymore. and generally a minmatar ship in scram range is a dead one.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#12 - 2015-03-14 04:39:29 UTC
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
I'd say take a high for a mid, realistically speaking you don't have the grid/CPU for a RLML or SB and you definitely don't have the cap and fitting for a neut. you could fit 650s to fix this but than you get a turret with bad DPS, Tracking, projection and unremarkable volley.

that said A LOT of matari ships should lose utility highs, most of them don't have the fitting, cap, or mids for Neuts anymore. and generally a minmatar ship in scram range is a dead one.



[Muninn, Kite]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier

720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot M
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Projectile Metastasis Adjuster II

Not true. You just can't fit huge tanks and get neuts on matari ships. You can fit the biggest arty, a single LSE and a medium neut with a single ACR. But thats it, you don't get barely any tank. You can fit the medium neut, which is immensely useful with this fit. Between 18km web and neut, you can keep frigs off you fairly well.

But, this fit shows how broken it is. To do what works well with arty, doesn't fit because of slot layout and some grid issues (fit needs a 2% implant). Some extra available grid would be nice.

Neuts are also very useful to the 10mn meta, since a web doesn't do ****.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2015-03-14 05:01:08 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:

Federation Navy Stasis Webifier


alright I'm assuming this if for a fleet or a gang, no point and all.

anyway IME you're better of simply having a hyena... they're cheaper than the fed web or have hugg / rap if you need the buffer. and the issue with nuets on matari ships isn't that you can't fit them, which is often the case. it's that you'll drain your cap long before almost anything else important. matari ships simply don't have mids and grid to spare for cap boosters, even on armor tanks

for example the stabber, I have never seen one with a nuet.