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[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance

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Author
Yroc Jannseen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1421 - 2015-03-12 11:35:49 UTC
FearlessLittleToaster wrote:
A minor suggestion to help combat pure evasion fits. It would be great if you could make it extremely obvious when an Entosis Link has started a new cycle,with something like a gate flash. This would allow an attacker who had eyes on the grid to maximize the time they had to run down an enemy trying to escape.


The problem with visual only effects is the fact that many people end up playing with a lot or most effects turned off, whether to reduce client side issues in big fights, or because they are running multiple clients.

The entosis effect should somehow be shown in the overview.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1422 - 2015-03-12 11:49:01 UTC
NPC corp characters can use this? You have got to be kidding me.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1423 - 2015-03-12 12:11:35 UTC
Kristian Hackett wrote:
That's assuming they even allow the T2 module to be fit to an interceptor. My proposal is the T2 is on BC-class and larger ships, T1 on everything and has serious penalties to prop mods. Get away from this "trollceptor pwn all" chatter entirely.

Any "solution" that relies on restricting mods to certain hull sizes, or disallows T2 links on certain ships, or artificially reduces speed will invalidate several current and future fleet comps. Since that's explicitly not a goal of CCP's - they specifically don't want the Entosis Link to dictate fleet comps from a fitting standpoint, and specifically do not want to restrict it to larger hulls only - your solution won't be viable in terms of their design goals.

Want to make Trollceptors hard to use? Make sure the cap drain on T2 links is significant, so it'll be a complete pain to run an MWD and Link and still be cap stable.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1424 - 2015-03-12 12:17:07 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
Now this begs another question: If I am in the process of capturing a sov structure I lose lock and then reestablish lock before the module cycle time is completed, will capture recommence immediately or do I have to wait to start a new cycle on my Entosis Link?

In that situation you would need to wait for you current cycle to complete, then activate the module again (triggering another warmup cycle before the module starts capturing). This means if you lose lock, you won’t be able to contest control of the structure for at least 2 minutes, and up to 4 minutes (the remainder of your current cycle, then the warmup cycle after the new activation).

And in one fell stroke, Fozzie has completely neutered Trollceptors. If you break lock on the structure, you're not getting any more progress for several minutes. If you bugger off as soon as you see someone on scan, one dude in a combat interceptor can effectively chase off any number of Trollceptors. Hell, Hero Keres and Hero Maulus and Hero Griffin and... well, anything small, fast, with a long lock range and any damp / ECM module - will be able to single handedly save dozens of systems just by warping on grid, breaking the Trollceptor's lock, and moving on to the next.

So, no longer any reason to nerf Trollceptors, since the solution is simple, achievable, scalable, and viable.

Can we move on to other link balance issues now?

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1425 - 2015-03-12 12:17:25 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:

Any "solution" that relies on restricting mods to certain hull sizes, or disallows T2 links on certain ships, or artificially reduces speed will invalidate several current and future fleet comps.


Good. That's the point.

Quote:

Since that's explicitly not a goal of CCP's


And as was stated here, evasion tactics not being optimal is also a goal of theirs.

They need to make their choice on the matter. Personally, I suggest they think about my original suggestion of making the Entosis link disable all prop mods on the activating ship.

Doesn't restrict what can mount the blasted thing, and it stops people from dicking around until the other guy dies of boredom.

The only reason anyone would be against such a thing is if they are intending to kite for their sov, not fight for it.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#1426 - 2015-03-12 12:25:40 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Basically, you want a "discussion" that's just all of you having 0.0 fantasies about ending evil cfc

So a hilarious echochamber "discussion". Go have it on reddit or something


You're likely to just get whatever has been planned anyway, since I doubt they'll change much so might as well begin planning out your interceptor fits and start buying so you won't have to when everything is overpriced just before/after the patch


I don't want a discussion.
I want a system not made for one coalition, not made by people who balance the game exclusively in the interest of the said coalition.


Dinsdale?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1427 - 2015-03-12 12:27:51 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Basically, you want a "discussion" that's just all of you having 0.0 fantasies about ending evil cfc

So a hilarious echochamber "discussion". Go have it on reddit or something


You're likely to just get whatever has been planned anyway, since I doubt they'll change much so might as well begin planning out your interceptor fits and start buying so you won't have to when everything is overpriced just before/after the patch


I don't want a discussion.
I want a system not made for one coalition, not made by people who balance the game exclusively in the interest of the said coalition.


Dinsdale?


Nope, but check this guy's post history for a few good laughs.

He thinks docking and pos shields are both exploits.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1428 - 2015-03-12 12:37:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Veskrashen
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
And as was stated here, evasion tactics not being optimal is also a goal of theirs.

"Optimal" and "Viable" are two different things.

Optimal would be if a kitey Link boat could always win, never be caught, and never be countered. That the only way to stop him would be to either bring your own kitey stuff or sit at zero with a defensive link and wait for him to get bored.

That's not the case here, however, now that we know how losing link works - you have to wait for your current cycle to finish, then spend another cycle reconnecting before you begin making any progress towards capture. That means that there are a multitude of counters to a kiting comp that do not rely on bringing your own kiting comp.

Viable on the other hand... if you made Entosis Links inflict a severe speed penalty, kiting comps would not be viable - they would be unable to hold range.

Kiting comps should remain viable, even if they're not optimal.

Changing the subject a bit, what about swapping the ranges on the T1/T2 links?

T1 links would have the 250km effective range, but with a 5 minute cycle time. That would mean that someone using a T1 link who lost lock or had to evade would suffer a much greater time penalty before being able to make progress on that (or another) structure. Kiting ships would be forced to remain on field much longer - up to 5 minutes at a time - since the Entosis Link would prevent them from warping out.

While T2 links would have a shorter range, they'd connect much faster, making it easier to stop someone else's progress and to reconnect should you lose your own. It would also allow you to disengage from brawls faster, rather than being pinned on field for 5 minutes in a brawling comp with no remote support available.

This would also force capitals / supercapitals to either remain close to their objective to take advantage of the 2 minute cycle time on the T2 link, or be forced to face tank an enemy fleet for up to 5 minutes at a time.

Something to consider at least.

EDIT: Thinking a bit more about this, it could actually force "interesting gameplay choices". You can either choose long range and be forced to stay on field longer, or sack up and go for a brawling comp and be pinned down for less time. Of course Bombers would have a field day with a brawling comp balled up within 30km of an objective, but bombers are up for review anyway.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

Philip Ogtaulmolfi
We are not bad. Just unlucky
#1429 - 2015-03-12 12:39:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Philip Ogtaulmolfi
Sentient Blade wrote:
My question is, can multiple people activate Entosis at once?

With the inability to receive remote reps, and assuming the ceptor problem has a solution in terms of fitting limitations, wont major battles have their Entosis links fitted to brick-tanked subcapitals?

Now from what I've read, the aim is to have grid control be the determining factor, but isn't that going to be limited in that even if you have a thousand people on grid protecting a triple-plated high-grade-slaved abaddon, a ninja hit-and-run attack with bombers (or my likely strategy would probably be sniper tornados sitting on the edge of grid) then the link is going to get toasted, even though control of the grid could quite reasonably be considered controlled by someone else.

PS: There should probably be some kind of bonus to cycle time on certain ships... I am of course thinking of the one designed for infiltration... Black Ops.


In this context, control of the grid means you can get your entosis link ship to complete the capture cicle, by whatever means. If you let snipers kill your capturing ship, you dont have control.
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#1430 - 2015-03-12 12:44:53 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:

Changing the subject a bit, what about swapping the ranges on the T1/T2 links?

T1 links would have the 250km effective range, but with a 5 minute cycle time. That would mean that someone using a T1 link who lost lock or had to evade would suffer a much greater time penalty before being able to make progress on that (or another) structure. Kiting ships would be forced to remain on field much longer - up to 5 minutes at a time - since the Entosis Link would prevent them from warping out.

While T2 links would have a shorter range, they'd connect much faster, making it easier to stop someone else's progress and to reconnect should you lose your own. It would also allow you to disengage from brawls faster, rather than being pinned on field for 5 minutes in a brawling comp with no remote support available.

This would also force capitals / supercapitals to either remain close to their objective to take advantage of the 2 minute cycle time on the T2 link, or be forced to face tank an enemy fleet for up to 5 minutes at a time.

Something to consider at least.

EDIT: Thinking a bit more about this, it could actually force "interesting gameplay choices". You can either choose long range and be forced to stay on field longer, or sack up and go for a brawling comp and be pinned down for less time. Of course Bombers would have a field day with a brawling comp balled up within 30km of an objective, but bombers are up for review anyway.


That is an interesting idea. In essence would mean that there would be a tradeoff, short range, fast cycle vs. long range, slower cyckle.

With current proposal T2 seems to be just flat out better version of T1 at slightly elevated price - I think your proposal is better.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#1431 - 2015-03-12 12:47:30 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:

EDIT: Thinking a bit more about this, it could actually force "interesting gameplay choices". You can either choose long range and be forced to stay on field longer, or sack up and go for a brawling comp and be pinned down for less time. Of course Bombers would have a field day with a brawling comp balled up within 30km of an objective, but bombers are up for review anyway.


Well it does not need to be 25 km and 250 km.

~50 km and max 250 km would feel in my opinion more reasonable points.

Then again we do not know yet if there is any additional skills involved potentially increasing the range. Currently it would seem like no as only single basic skill has been mentioned so far.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1432 - 2015-03-12 13:05:17 UTC
Lena Lazair wrote:

Not only is this important, it's fundamental. However, the idea that ANY large bloc would be able to refrain from attacking each other once trollsov goes live is simply laughable. The decision will no longer be in the hands of bloc leaders because it will no longer be relegated to a relatively small group of cap pilots flying ships very few people can afford to individually lose without SRP/alliance support.

The decision will be made by line members flying cheap subcaps doing serious sov damage and/or provoking routine fights with formerly blue neighbors because they are bored and tired of stagnant null. The moment they realize that standings the diplos have set mean squat, 80% of coalition PvP pilots will be rolling the sov of anyone not wearing their alliance tag. And there's nothing their alliance can do to prevent this. Kicking these folks will merely serve to weaken that alliance's ability to defend sov while simultaneously adding to the numbers of ronin intimately familiar with local geography. Each and every one of them capable of contesting sov in a relatively meaningful way and now pissed at the alliance that just kicked them merely for the desire of finding fights nearby with groups they mostly already don't like.

Probably the funniest part of this change is the number of people that seem to have forgotten their alliances are NOT made up predominantly of people with capital ships or the budget to lose those ships on their own whims. Pilots who don't actually need or care about 20m ratting ticks in a Nyx with perfect IHUB upgrades in a system. These are the faceless line members making up a huge portion of your numbers that will suddenly have the tools to contest sov whenever they want in the cheapest ships available; SRP and diplos be damned. Goon core should do well as usual, BRAVE, etc., but everyone better be taking a serious look at their demographics if you think you will have ANY chance to control who your line members are attacking once this change goes live.

And best of all, if this DOESN'T happen, it will expose baldly the lie of nullbears claiming that they are tired of stagnant null. It will be in the hands of each and every 2 month old pilot with a hangar of subcaps to vote with their sovlasers, so to speak, as to whether or not null should remain blue and stagnant. Bloc leaders will have pretty much no say in this choice.

this is probably the most words anyone has ever posted to prove their complete and utter inability to understand a thing in the history of these forums

hint: if the psychological mechanisms described in this garbage barge were at all true, we'd deal with hundreds of incidents of blue shooting a day instead of the maybe one a month we do get, if that

it turns out that one's alliance membership is an extremely powerful mote of collateral towards obeying the rules

you might understand this if the organizations you belonged to were even remotely appealing
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1433 - 2015-03-12 13:05:42 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:

"Optimal" and "Viable" are two different things.


They are not, at least not in this context.

It is either possible to capture sov by dicking around until the other guy gets bored, or it's not.

Disabling prop mods solves it nicely.

It keeps all of their goals intact, it does not restrict choice of hull, it promotes conflict instead of kiting, and it forces either side to have military control of the grid.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#1434 - 2015-03-12 13:08:14 UTC
Lena Lazair wrote:

Not only is this important, it's fundamental. However, the idea that ANY large bloc would be able to refrain from attacking each other once trollsov goes live is simply laughable. The decision will no longer be in the hands of bloc leaders because it will no longer be relegated to a relatively small group of cap pilots flying ships very few people can afford to individually lose without SRP/alliance support.

i see we're in the "complete fanfiction from people who have never set foot in null" phase of the thread
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1435 - 2015-03-12 13:16:09 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
Now this begs another question: If I am in the process of capturing a sov structure I lose lock and then reestablish lock before the module cycle time is completed, will capture recommence immediately or do I have to wait to start a new cycle on my Entosis Link?

In that situation you would need to wait for you current cycle to complete, then activate the module again (triggering another warmup cycle before the module starts capturing). This means if you lose lock, you won’t be able to contest control of the structure for at least 2 minutes, and up to 4 minutes (the remainder of your current cycle, then the warmup cycle after the new activation).

And in one fell stroke, Fozzie has completely neutered Trollceptors. If you break lock on the structure, you're not getting any more progress for several minutes. If you bugger off as soon as you see someone on scan, one dude in a combat interceptor can effectively chase off any number of Trollceptors. Hell, Hero Keres and Hero Maulus and Hero Griffin and... well, anything small, fast, with a long lock range and any damp / ECM module - will be able to single handedly save dozens of systems just by warping on grid, breaking the Trollceptor's lock, and moving on to the next.

So, no longer any reason to nerf Trollceptors, since the solution is simple, achievable, scalable, and viable.

Can we move on to other link balance issues now?

nope

disengage and move to next target
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1436 - 2015-03-12 13:32:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Aralyn Cormallen
Veskrashen wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
And as was stated here, evasion tactics not being optimal is also a goal of theirs.

"Optimal" and "Viable" are two different things.

Optimal would be if a kitey Link boat could always win, never be caught, and never be countered. That the only way to stop him would be to either bring your own kitey stuff or sit at zero with a defensive link and wait for him to get bored.

Neither solution constitutes controlling the grid, and can't be classed as a fight under any interpretation.

Quote:
That's not the case here, however, now that we know how losing link works - you have to wait for your current cycle to finish, then spend another cycle reconnecting before you begin making any progress towards capture. That means that there are a multitude of counters to a kiting comp that do not rely on bringing your own kiting comp.

Ah, this would be the ECM solution. Another solution that is centred on the concept of not fighting, and not controlling the grid, just competing for who wants to not contest the grid longest.

Quote:
if you made Entosis Links inflict a severe speed penalty, kiting comps would not be viable - they would be unable to hold range.

Why wouldn't they be viable? If you are the faster moving, longer ranged fleet in the engagement, why are you trying to activate a sov-laser when you have an enemy on the field? After all, the enemy can't activate a link since you will immediately alpha it off the field before it completes its preperation cycle, so why should you be allowed to freely link away when the brawling comp you are fighting cannot? If you were allowed to activate your link whilst maintaining your speed and range advantage, then you could freely capture without ever engaging the enemy (barring sniping every e-link that activates or ecm boat that shows up). The brawling comp would be the one not viable, the kiter indeed would be optimal.

Ultimately, the purpose of the e-link is that the user must be holding the grid. Not kiting around the edge out of range ignoring the enemy, and not sitting in a invulnerable spider-tank at 0 . CCP have removed the ability for close-range and capital comps to perform the latter, which is where their advantage lays, but has yet to ensure kitey and frigate comps cant perform the former, where their advantage lays. The options to even up the playing field is to either remove the kiters ability to kite while linking, or return the brawlers ability to tank the kiters damage while linking - and heres a hint, the second option is by far the worst of the two.

EDIT: Once this disparity is balanced out, I'd be willing to suggest that an activated e-link makes users immune to ewar effects, after all, if they are slowed and can't warp already, the only reason to ewar them is to ecm troll, which is just as silly as evasion trolling, and is stupid for all the same reasons, these mechanics should be encouraging fights, not stupid gimmick-plays to annoy and frustrate.
Dave Stark
#1437 - 2015-03-12 13:34:41 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Ultimately, the purpose of the e-link is that the user must be holding the grid.


if you're within 250km of the node and you can activate a link, clearly you are holding the grid. otherwise you'd be back in a station after being podded.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1438 - 2015-03-12 13:38:36 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
every person who tries to post complicated anti-interceptor vignettes assumes the interceptor is orbiting

why would you do that if no one is on grid

Because a static interceptor can be tackled by a stealth bomber decloaking at zero and web scramming it and doesn't require any prediction at all.

I think you meant to say 'no-one *visible* on grid'

Carniflex wrote:
A typical trollceptor would be...
All the trollceptor fits you've been looking at are optimised for speed and lose their 2s align ability = killable at an insta lock gate camp (rather than killable by a 10km/s 10mn tac destroyer) = no longer a trollceptor because they can't dance from system to system.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1439 - 2015-03-12 13:42:35 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Ultimately, the purpose of the e-link is that the user must be holding the grid.


if you're within 250km of the node and you can activate a link, clearly you are holding the grid. otherwise you'd be back in a station after being podded.


Clearly you are on the grid, holding it, far from necessarily. You just need to be fast enough to evade the other guys on the grid, and possess enough range to kill anyone else who activates an e-link. Short-range and brawler comps clearly need not apply under these new sov rules.
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1440 - 2015-03-12 14:10:06 UTC
Gempei wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
In that situation you would need to wait for you current cycle to complete, then activate the module again (triggering another warmup cycle before the module starts capturing). This means if you lose lock, you won’t be able to contest control of the structure for at least 2 minutes, and up to 4 minutes (the remainder of your current cycle, then the warmup cycle after the new activation).
So trollceptor and antitroll falcon. Good job with that sov mechanics.



Or just troll dampener