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[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance

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Kristian Hackett
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1341 - 2015-03-11 22:42:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Kristian Hackett
Eli Apol wrote:
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Er, correct me if I'm wrong, but oversized propmods kinda kill your agility don't they? All an inty has to do is turn left or right and the T3 will be severely penalized.

T3 dessie has an agility buff whilst in prop mode.

Ceptor has to change direction enough to make it out of OH scram range from something chasing it at double the speed.

*maybe* with superb manual pilotting he might manage it, whilst the chasing dessie only has to press approach - a well timed sling shot *might* work though, but could be countered by the dessie pilots skill.

Sounds like a fun or not so fun minute or two for the ceptor pilot at least.

Getting out of scram range will be difficult, especially if it's the Cruor that catches it. That frigate has a 20km web which would be more than enough to close the gap to lay on the scrambler and shut out the MWD. The ideal team is a Cruor with web and Garmur with a Warp Disruptor II fitted. 36km range on Warp Disruptor II (Garmur), 20km range on webs (Cruor), 13 km range on Warp Scrambler II (Garmur), and then the Cruor finishes the capture by sucking the Interceptor's capacitor dry.

If the Garmur OH's the Warp Disruptor II, that's a 43.2km range. If the Interceptor is speed fit holding at range to the structure for the link, the Garmur just needs to land at the structure to make the tackle.

Aircraft Maintenance - Using a high school diploma to fix what a college degree just f***ed up. "Life is too short to drink cheap beer."
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1342 - 2015-03-11 22:43:01 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Evasion tactics will be optimal so long as they are possible.

[Citation needed]


Ever heard of these new things they have now, called people? People will always take the low road, they will always do as little as possible to get to their goals. It's really rather interesting.

Sarcasm aside, it's a binary equation. Either it's possible to capture sov by dicking around in a kiting ship, or it's not. If it is, then it's a damn sight easier than actually fighting for sov, so it will become the optimal assignment of resources.

It's not binary. It depends on your local defensive resources.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1343 - 2015-03-11 22:49:56 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Evasion tactics will be optimal so long as they are possible.

[Citation needed]


Ever heard of these new things they have now, called people? People will always take the low road, they will always do as little as possible to get to their goals. It's really rather interesting.

Sarcasm aside, it's a binary equation. Either it's possible to capture sov by dicking around in a kiting ship, or it's not. If it is, then it's a damn sight easier than actually fighting for sov, so it will become the optimal assignment of resources.

That's a bunch of opinion, with no fact, and certainly no [citation].

But sarcasm aside, with their inabillity to warp off, troll cepters (especially those that are gimmick s*** fits that trade all their rigs and most of their mid slots for 110km lock range) will die in droves to Dramiels and Garmurs, as well as Rail Eagles and Tengus who can plink them down from 50km to 200km+ using Javelin, CN Antimatter, and CN Thorium.

Where you see a troll ceptor, I see a killmail. Where you see hundreds of gewns spreading across hundreds of systems, I see hundreds of killmails. And I like it, It's just that simple.

I've killed dozens of ceptors in a single day before, solo. I'd link proof here if it wouldn't get my post deleted by Ezwal. This isn't boasting, many people in this thread have reported similar experiences. Ceptors die.

Swarms of "unkillable" interceptors are a ~narrative~. A ~narrative~ that no one who knows what they're talking about is buying. I don't know how else to explain it to you. vOv
EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#1344 - 2015-03-11 22:51:33 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Lets focus on your earlier post where you ask for people to suggest ways to kill an interceptor

despite what you probably assumed this is one of those cases dropping supercaps on it doesn't work
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1345 - 2015-03-11 22:52:06 UTC
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Lets focus on your earlier post where you ask for people to suggest ways to kill an interceptor

despite what you probably assumed this is one of those cases dropping supercaps on it doesn't work

Smartbombing

though pl did lose titan smartbombing on a gate in lowsec

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1346 - 2015-03-11 22:56:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Scatim Helicon
Kristian Hackett wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We do not intend to allow pure evasion tactics to become optimal.


Then make it disable prop mods on a ship activating it.

Evasion tactics will be optimal so long as they are possible. The solution is to make them impossible.

I have to agree here. You can disrupt a pure evasion fit, but you can't remove it from grid. Disable the prop mods - if the attacker wants to stick around they better be ready to fight (or soak a stupid amount of damage).


Yeah, this entire 68 page and counting argument can be resolved with a single sentence from Fozzie saying that activation of the Entosis Link carries some kind of significant mobility penalty, whether that be disabling of prop mods, a flat self-webbing effect, or whatever. And if Entosis-fitted interceptors are as easy to catch as the detractors claim it will make no difference to impose such a penalty.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1347 - 2015-03-11 22:59:07 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Kristian Hackett wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We do not intend to allow pure evasion tactics to become optimal.


Then make it disable prop mods on a ship activating it.

Evasion tactics will be optimal so long as they are possible. The solution is to make them impossible.

I have to agree here. You can disrupt a pure evasion fit, but you can't remove it from grid. Disable the prop mods - if the attacker wants to stick around they better be ready to fight (or soak a stupid amount of damage).


Yeah, this entire 68 page and counting argument becomes mute with a single sentence from Fozzie saying that activation of the Entosis Link carries some kind of significant mobility penalty, whether that be disabling of prop mods, a flat self-webbing effect, or whatever.

Afaik I think someone just showed there's not necessarily a reason for that anymore

/checks the previous page

Yep, I think we're clear of the trollceptor thing now, think it's done with.

Rest In Pieces.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1348 - 2015-03-11 22:59:08 UTC
alternatively just hard lock all ships to minimum 3s align except pod and shuttle

look at how easy it is to fix eve
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1349 - 2015-03-11 23:00:02 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Kristian Hackett wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We do not intend to allow pure evasion tactics to become optimal.


Then make it disable prop mods on a ship activating it.

Evasion tactics will be optimal so long as they are possible. The solution is to make them impossible.

I have to agree here. You can disrupt a pure evasion fit, but you can't remove it from grid. Disable the prop mods - if the attacker wants to stick around they better be ready to fight (or soak a stupid amount of damage).


Yeah, this entire 68 page and counting argument becomes mute with a single sentence from Fozzie saying that activation of the Entosis Link carries some kind of significant mobility penalty, whether that be disabling of prop mods, a flat self-webbing effect, or whatever.

Afaik I think someone just showed there's not necessarily a reason for that anymore

/checks the previous page

Yep, I think we're clear of the trollceptor thing now, think it's done with.

Rest In Pieces.

nah, interceptors are still a problem

but thanks for posting
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1350 - 2015-03-11 23:03:15 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Er, correct me if I'm wrong, but oversized propmods kinda kill your agility don't they? All an inty has to do is turn left or right and the T3 will be severely penalized.


T3 dessie has an agility buff whilst in prop mode.
Ceptor has to change direction enough to make it out of OH scram range from something chasing it at double the speed.
*maybe* with superb manual pilotting he might manage it, whilst the chasing dessie only has to press approach - a well timed sling shot *might* work but could be countered by the dessie pilots skill as well.
Sounds like a fun or not so fun minute or two for the ceptor pilot at least.


Even with it's agility buff it's a pain in the ass to turn with an oversized, overheated prop mod. The interceptor has a massive advantage in it's agility, and it's immunity to bubbles. An inty can dart onto the field, examine the situation, and GTFO if need be. T3 dessies may move twice as fast, but they still have to finish dropping out of warp, align, and spool up their prop mod in order to catch the interceptor which may be well on it's way to leaving the grid (via warping or physical grid boundaries) if he pays attention to D-scan.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1351 - 2015-03-11 23:03:23 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
nah, interceptors are still a problem

but thanks for posting

Outside of Entosis links, perhaps, take it to Ships and Modules if you want to discuss them in the broader game.

Thanks for posting x198

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1352 - 2015-03-11 23:04:44 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
alternatively just hard lock all ships to minimum 3s align except pod and shuttle

look at how easy it is to fix eve

Case in point - what does align time matter when an Interceptor is using an Entosis link and can't warp off? Oh noes, the inty aligned on me! All is lost!~~Roll

This entire thread is an exercise in narrative control. Some individuals and/or groups don't like interceptors and will use any excuse to try and get them nerfed.
Yroc Jannseen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1353 - 2015-03-11 23:10:28 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
alternatively just hard lock all ships to minimum 3s align except pod and shuttle

look at how easy it is to fix eve

Case in point - what does align time matter when an Interceptor is using an Entosis link and can't warp off? Oh noes, the inty aligned on me! All is lost!~~Roll

This entire thread is an exercise in narrative control. Some individuals and/or groups don't like interceptors and will use any excuse to try and get them nerfed.


If this thread was about narrative control there'd be more than half a dozen people from the CFC involved.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#1354 - 2015-03-11 23:15:06 UTC
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Lets focus on your earlier post where you ask for people to suggest ways to kill an interceptor

despite what you probably assumed this is one of those cases dropping supercaps on it doesn't work


I think you'll find that to be a tragic mistake if you really believe that.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1355 - 2015-03-11 23:18:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
Yroc Jannseen wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
alternatively just hard lock all ships to minimum 3s align except pod and shuttle

look at how easy it is to fix eve

Case in point - what does align time matter when an Interceptor is using an Entosis link and can't warp off? Oh noes, the inty aligned on me! All is lost!~~Roll

This entire thread is an exercise in narrative control. Some individuals and/or groups don't like interceptors and will use any excuse to try and get them nerfed.


If this thread was about narrative control there'd be more than half a dozen people from the CFC involved.

How about half a dozen in just the top 20 and 30% of posts purely from Goonswarm Fed without counting the rest of the coalition?

I mean fair play a lot of those were complete dross but it's not like you're under-represented here.

edit: I guess if anything the highsec salvagers are over-represented with their pleas to allow the module to be fitted on their Noctis

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1356 - 2015-03-11 23:21:57 UTC
Yroc Jannseen wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
alternatively just hard lock all ships to minimum 3s align except pod and shuttle

look at how easy it is to fix eve

Case in point - what does align time matter when an Interceptor is using an Entosis link and can't warp off? Oh noes, the inty aligned on me! All is lost!~~Roll

This entire thread is an exercise in narrative control. Some individuals and/or groups don't like interceptors and will use any excuse to try and get them nerfed.


If this thread was about narrative control there'd be more than half a dozen people from the CFC involved.

It's like sov trolling, we just need to keep posting and moving to the next post until all the defenders give up on their sov

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1357 - 2015-03-11 23:23:16 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Yroc Jannseen wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
alternatively just hard lock all ships to minimum 3s align except pod and shuttle

look at how easy it is to fix eve

Case in point - what does align time matter when an Interceptor is using an Entosis link and can't warp off? Oh noes, the inty aligned on me! All is lost!~~Roll

This entire thread is an exercise in narrative control. Some individuals and/or groups don't like interceptors and will use any excuse to try and get them nerfed.


If this thread was about narrative control there'd be more than half a dozen people from the CFC involved.

It's like sov trolling, we just need to keep posting and moving to the next post until all the defenders give up on their sov

I had noticed that similarity tbh but was too polite to point it out.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1358 - 2015-03-11 23:32:20 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Yeah, this entire 68 page and counting argument can be resolved with a single sentence from Fozzie saying that activation of the Entosis Link carries some kind of significant mobility penalty, whether that be disabling of prop mods, a flat self-webbing effect, or whatever. And if Entosis-fitted interceptors are as easy to catch as the detractors claim it will make no difference to impose such a penalty.

No. Kiting doctrines should remain viable, if the design principle is to not influence fleet design for ships flying with Entosis Links.

That means no speed maulus, no inertia maulus, no "Entosis Shock" mechanics, etc etc etc. Learn to counter small fast stuff, don't force CCP to hold your hands.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1359 - 2015-03-11 23:33:43 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
alternatively just hard lock all ships to minimum 3s align except pod and shuttle

look at how easy it is to fix eve

Or, keep it like it is, so that gatecamps don't grant safety and allow you to control disproportionate amounts of space.

Drop systems you don't need and shrink your empire to an appropriate size. See how easy it is to adapt to Fozziesov?

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#1360 - 2015-03-11 23:43:44 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
John McCreedy wrote:
With respect Fozzie, that's not what he asked. You skilfully sidestepped the question. Does it or does it not require members to be in the system under attack? Yes or no?

What part of "all alliance members" isn't clear? You don't need to be in any specific system to receive the notification in our current plan.


Is that part still under consideration?

Seems a bit counterintuitive to the 'alliance needs to maintain presence' policy.
Why not restrict it to the constellation and require the active alliance members there to notify their alliance?