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[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance

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Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1301 - 2015-03-11 20:57:31 UTC
Kristian Hackett wrote:
I think what people might find to be the scariest thought here is if the NPSI communities decide to do Trollceptor roams. At that point, no Sov is safe! *insert evil laugh here*


Ganked, I hear, are already looking forward to it. I would assume others in the NPSI communities will be, as well. More people heading into space, heading to make action and now they have a method of ringing the doorbell.
Quote:
'Warriors . . . come out to play - ayyy
'

and yes, I know how that movie ends.

But I disagree with one thing from the above. A defended sov will be safe from a roaming gang. A sov with indices will probably be fairly safe. One with a good defense force will have fights delivered to their doorstep. One with an organization and intel channels will be able to prepare for them, roll out the red carpet.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
davet517
Raata Invicti
#1302 - 2015-03-11 21:00:55 UTC
Duffyman wrote:
What I still don't understand is why certain entities are pushing so hard for ceptors to be allowed to use sov laser. Do you even plan to take and keep sov? Will you defend it with interceptors?


I would think that it's obvious. To create as many timers as possible for defenders who don't show up to defend so that they can't "death-blob" when it comes time for the capture event. With many timers running they'll have to spread out to avoid being attacked where they have not deployed.

When you have a single, pre-determined point of attack, or even a few that are close together, numbers are always going to win. This counters that. Interceptors aren't the only way to achieve this, especially in renter districts. Just about any small PvP gang will do. Black ops gangs would be just as effective.
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1303 - 2015-03-11 21:04:49 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

This is why people with zero experience with sov warfare should not be in this thread.



I'm on board with this, if it also goes both ways and no CFC member can ever post in a lowsec, FW, highsec missioning/mining, highsec wardec, or WH thread, ever again. I'll have my space lawyer write up the contract and get back to your diplos...
Freedom Nadd
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1304 - 2015-03-11 21:06:45 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Freedom Nadd wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
Freedom Nadd wrote:

Which would lead to meaningful content and allow those who dominate the grid to control the FozzieSov(tm) fight.
** edit : Only defensive links would stack, offensive links remain as planned **

Which means you don't actually have to control the grid, you simply need to be able to bring more guys than the other side, i.e. N+1. Which is what this mechanic is supposed to avoid. If you can "win" by putting a dozen more ships on grid than the other guy and never actually interact in any way, that's not a good solution.



Please define for me what "Controlling the grid" actually means?

Consider Control of a battlefield, to any military minded individual it means having the forces and multipliers available to stop the enemy from completing their tactical goals and maintaining the initiative.

I consider control of a battlefield the same way you do - preventing your opponent from completing his goal. I just want you to have to actually interact with that opponent - kill him, jam him, damp him, force him to run away - rather than simply sit around with more active links on the structure than he has. If the counter to Trollceptor is 2x Trollceptors, that's not a good solution - especially if only defensive links stack.

The opposite would be just as bad - if only attacking links stacked, things would be far imbalanced in favor of the Trollceptor Hordes (which I seriously hope becomes a mercenary corp name by June).


BUT ..... [drumroll]

It is the weakness of the system design that allows that to happen. Even under current conditions, 2 vs 1 will STILL have the same result except control will "stall". By forcing the attacker to actively remove defenders we move once more into content generation rather than the +1 Trollceptor spinning game.

The onus MUST rest with the attacker.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1305 - 2015-03-11 21:06:50 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
And I'm not kidding, this discussion was the exact same before dominion, with people (like goons) telling everyone "we will use this to make your game experience suck" and legions of short-sighted utopians on the other side proclaiming "this will be great, those big alliances are gonna get what's coming to them!!".


Can somebody just replace every post in this thread with the above quote?

Thanks.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1306 - 2015-03-11 21:09:49 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Goons wrote:
Grr ceptors


Can somebody just replace every post in this thread with the above quote?

Thanks.

No need.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1307 - 2015-03-11 21:21:31 UTC
Lena Lazair wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

This is why people with zero experience with sov warfare should not be in this thread.



I'm on board with this, if it also goes both ways and no CFC member can ever post in a lowsec, FW, highsec missioning/mining, highsec wardec, or WH thread, ever again. I'll have my space lawyer write up the contract and get back to your diplos...

the mistake here is that you are ascribing our supposed inexperience with these areas of gameplay by our alliance ticker alone

when you are ascribing your observed inexperience with 0.0 by your words
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1308 - 2015-03-11 21:25:01 UTC
The TMC guest sov expert xttz contradicted himself within 2 posts, the CFC's fitting expert baltec got wrecked in a discussion about how trollceptors are going to outrun ships that are doing twice the speed of them...

Seems experience matters little in this discussion.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Philip Ogtaulmolfi
We are not bad. Just unlucky
#1309 - 2015-03-11 21:25:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Philip Ogtaulmolfi
Sigras wrote:
To the people stating that trollceptors dont matter because you can counter them with a friendly entosis link...

Picture this Scenario

I have a fleet of 300 coming to capture your system after we reinforced it last night, but I dont like Fozzie's idea of splitting my fleet up to capture command nodes in different systems... So i allocate 20 of my ships as trollceptors. I send 4 of them to each command node to prevent it from being captured and move my other 260 people around capping the modules one by one. No need to split up my fleet, no risk of loss.



Yea, I take my 20 ship fleet, split in four 5 ship fleets and after 40 minutes you lose the battle.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1310 - 2015-03-11 21:25:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Lena Lazair wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

This is why people with zero experience with sov warfare should not be in this thread.



I'm on board with this, if it also goes both ways and no CFC member can ever post in a lowsec, FW, highsec missioning/mining, highsec wardec, or WH thread, ever again. I'll have my space lawyer write up the contract and get back to your diplos...

the mistake here is that you are ascribing our supposed inexperience with these areas of gameplay by our alliance ticker alone

when you are ascribing your observed inexperience with 0.0 by your words

But fweddit are FW people

And we have wormhole groups

Also we have people who gank and do highsec wardecs (though mostly it's more costefficient to just gank)

we also have people that mine and do missions and industry and trading so

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1311 - 2015-03-11 21:27:07 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
The TMC guest sov expert xttz contradicted himself within 2 posts, the CFC's fitting expert baltec got wrecked in a discussion about how trollceptors are going to outrun ships that are doing twice the speed of them...

Seems experience matters little in this discussion.

baltec is our fitting expert?

also [citation needed] on the contradictions
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1312 - 2015-03-11 21:27:43 UTC
Philip Ogtaulmolfi wrote:
Sigras wrote:
To the people stating that trollceptors dont matter because you can counter them with a friendly entosis link...

Picture this Scenario

I have a fleet of 300 coming to capture your system after we reinforced it last night, but I dont like Fozzie's idea of splitting my fleet up to capture command nodes in different systems... So i allocate 20 of my ships as trollceptors. I send 4 of them to each command node to prevent it from being captured and move my other 260 people around capping the modules one by one. No need to split up my fleet, no risk of loss.



Yea, I take my 20 ship fleet, split in four 5 ship fleets and after 40 minutes you lose the battle.

So basically instead take 256 (max in a fleet anyway)

and the other 44 split up and send double the people to each thing that your 20 fleet does

I mean this is hardly surprising

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1313 - 2015-03-11 21:29:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
Promiscuous Female wrote:
baltec is our fitting expert?

You have several fleet fits named after the guy, sorry if I assumed too much, perhaps you have some others that might want to step up to the plate?
Promiscuous Female wrote:
also [citation needed] on the contradictions

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5573398#post5573398

edit: I'm sorry I haven't worked out your own point of expertise yet :(

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
SilentAsTheGrave
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1314 - 2015-03-11 21:34:49 UTC  |  Edited by: SilentAsTheGrave
Jenn aSide wrote:
And I'm not kidding, this discussion was the exact same before dominion, with people (like goons) telling everyone "we will use this to make your game experience suck" and legions of short-sighted utopians on the other side proclaiming "this will be great, those big alliances are gonna get what's coming to them!!".

[Citation Needed]

Not to be ignored is Dominion sov was shipped unfinished due to CCP focusing heavy development on World of Darkness and Dust 514.

I'm serious. I really would like to see some legitimate links to some threads where the masses were chanting this will be the end of goons and goons saying Dominion sov will be terrible before it was released to Singularity and Tranquility. I'm always eager to learn and read up on these things. So please, link me some threads that support your claim.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1315 - 2015-03-11 21:35:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Promiscuous Female
Eli Apol wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
baltec is our fitting expert?

You have several fleet fits named after the guy, sorry if I assumed too much, perhaps you have some others that might want to step up to the plate?


yeah our megathron fleet is named baltecfleet because baltec1 only ever flies megathrons in any sort of fleet regardless if it's a good idea to use a megathron or not

goons happen to love gimmicks more than most things (except food)

Eli Apol wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
also [citation needed] on the contradictions

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5573398#post5573398

yeah this is just poor use of semantics in a shallow attempt to trip someone up, not valid sorry
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1316 - 2015-03-11 21:36:02 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
The TMC guest sov expert xttz contradicted himself within 2 posts, the CFC's fitting expert baltec got wrecked in a discussion about how trollceptors are going to outrun ships that are doing twice the speed of them...

Seems experience matters little in this discussion.


Yea, no such thing happened.

Want wrecked?

Just wait till we start injecting 10 man gangs of t3 destroyers fitted to avoid anything that can kill them but able to kill anything that can almost catch them.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1317 - 2015-03-11 21:37:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
baltec1 wrote:
Yea, no such thing happened.

Want wrecked?

Just wait till we start injecting 10 man gangs of t3 destroyers fitted to avoid anything that can kill them but able to kill anything that can almost catch them.

But trollceptors are still uncatchable right? You left me hanging on that one.

edit: Nice of you to catch up on the T3 dessie meta by the way - fortunately these can be bubbled as you'll be glad to hear.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#1318 - 2015-03-11 21:42:04 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

This is why people with zero experience with sov warfare should not be in this thread.


This is wrong. The fact that you do not find the current, broken sov system interesting and worth getting invested in should not exclude you from commenting on the new system, which will hopefully repair some of that brokenness. Otherwise the only feedback will be from people who find the current system acceptable.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
SilentAsTheGrave
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1319 - 2015-03-11 21:49:48 UTC
Zappity wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

This is why people with zero experience with sov warfare should not be in this thread.


This is wrong. The fact that you do not find the current, broken sov system interesting and worth getting invested in should not exclude you from commenting on the new system, which will hopefully repair some of that brokenness. Otherwise the only feedback will be from people who find the current system acceptable.

^^ Quoting for truth!

It is amusing to see current null bloc members cry their eyes out why there is no new blood in sov and the moment anyone that is not part of one of these super coalition blocs has an opinion on the matter they are told to shut up and should not be listened to. It is that kind of thinking that ruins any quality discussion on the matter. Having that kind of negative mentality is childish and doesn't help the conversation at all. Ugh
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1320 - 2015-03-11 21:50:04 UTC
Zappity wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

This is why people with zero experience with sov warfare should not be in this thread.


This is wrong. The fact that you do not find the current, broken sov system interesting and worth getting invested in should not exclude you from commenting on the new system, which will hopefully repair some of that brokenness. Otherwise the only feedback will be from people who find the current system acceptable.

at what point did we say the current system was acceptable