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[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance

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PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1241 - 2015-03-11 18:58:29 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
CCP Fozzie wrote:

The Entosis Link cannot be stopped partway through the cycle. Once you start the module, you will suffer all the penalties (like being unable to warp or be assisted) until the cycle ends or until your ship explodes, whichever comes first.

So basically, for the less savvy, a dramiel or garmur (the 2 fastest frigates in the game atm) can run down any ceptor and kill it with ease, seeing as said ceptor can't warp off.

Dead Ceptor. With killmail and all. Also, faction fit keres works, as do other ships

10 billion isk says they still don't stop complaining about ceptors and nullification.

Querns wrote:

Some serious deliberation on the current state of interdiction nullification is called for, I think;


Borachon wrote:

Perhaps you're missing my point. The basic idea is to use large numbers of trollceptors to ...


baltec1 wrote:

I want small gangs not an endless swarm of cepters that you will not catch


Oh look, I win.

Yes, endless ceptor swarms that generate endless killmails for anyone with a garmur, dramiel, faction fit keres, or any one of a dozen other ships that will annihilate ceptors that can't warp off.

Those endless kill mails will be terrible. Just terrible. Those poor, poor sov defenders.

Duffyman wrote:
The current design pretty much allows anyone to go in, contest the sov and moonwalk out at will.


And this one's a case of "lol didn't read." Please tell me, how does a ceptor "moonwalk out" if it can't warp away and faster ships can run it down?
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1242 - 2015-03-11 18:58:51 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
woe be to the yoke of lowsec where you can evac your fw beacon orbiting frigates at will with a neutral character

that is the sum of your assets that are "at risk" because lowsec does not allow you to actually deploy personal assets like ihubs and outposts nor does it allow you to be meaningfully locked out of any station (hint: black frog exists)

Since under Fozziesov you'll have 48 hours of Freeport, and since Black Frog exists, and since A+B = you can evac any assets you have should something go wrong...

... does that mean that noone in nullsec will have any assets at risk under Fozziesov?

Hmm....

A 48 hour window is hardly the same thing as "assets are available for extraction at any moment until the servers go dark."

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Kristian Hackett
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1243 - 2015-03-11 18:59:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Kristian Hackett
baltec1 wrote:
Kristian Hackett wrote:


3) Well, looks like we've just ID'd another area that could use some rebalancing.
5) Most likely, yea, the damage won't even scratch his shields unless you can trip him up with a web. Use in conjunction with a webifier (Cruors would be great for this with the Webifier bonus).
6) Hey look! Combo 1, 2 & 4 to kick some ass!


So how do you plan to grab said trollcepter with a web when it is both faster than you by a large margin and has range on you?

If the troll is stupid enough to fall into the trap, all it takes is that one screw up for fast troll to be a dead troll. Also, remember you've got some additional range to work with here. You don't need to be dead on top of him, just keep in range long enough to get a sebo'd lock.

Aircraft Maintenance - Using a high school diploma to fix what a college degree just f***ed up. "Life is too short to drink cheap beer."
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1244 - 2015-03-11 18:59:52 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
So how do you plan to grab said trollcepter with a web when it is both faster than you by a large margin and has range on you?

When defending your own structure one would presume a cloaked ship could tell you which of your preprepared bookmarks would be a suitable warp in to allow for the current momentum of the target.


So, its not going to happen because what you just described would never work.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1245 - 2015-03-11 19:03:08 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:


And this one's a case of "lol didn't read." Please tell me, how does a ceptor "moonwalk out" if it can't warp away and faster ships can run it down?


They don't run down cepters now and wont in the future. Every single one of your plans revolvs around the assumption the cepter is joust going to let you warp to 0 on it, not more or not run when something shows up.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1246 - 2015-03-11 19:04:21 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
baltec1 wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:


And this one's a case of "lol didn't read." Please tell me, how does a ceptor "moonwalk out" if it can't warp away and faster ships can run it down?


They don't run down cepters now and wont in the future. Every single one of your plans revolvs around the assumption the cepter is joust going to let you warp to 0 on it, not more or not run when something shows up.

A max speed garmur or dramiel is faster than any max speed ceptor under equivalent conditions. Fact.

If you can't warp, you're dead.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1247 - 2015-03-11 19:05:24 UTC
No I'm pretty sure they already know how it will work.

They want to do it to us, so they have to hide this by pretending the pilots are much stupider at piloting the sovtrollship than they themselves are.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1248 - 2015-03-11 19:06:10 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:

A max speed garmur or dramiel is faster than any ceptor under equivalent conditions. Fact.


It has a 110km head start, it starts burning the second it sees you on its D-scan, it will be 200km away at the very least when you meet it. No, you won't catch it.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1249 - 2015-03-11 19:07:00 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
So how do you plan to grab said trollcepter with a web when it is both faster than you by a large margin and has range on you?

When defending your own structure one would presume a cloaked ship could tell you which of your preprepared bookmarks would be a suitable warp in to allow for the current momentum of the target.


So, its not going to happen because what you just described would never work.

Because you say so?

Or because a ship moving at constant velocity in pretty much a circle isn't covered by trigonometric functions?

Sure it'll take some skill in converting warp time versus arc of the target and the inty pilot has some chance to change direction once the ship is within 14AU but sniper ships also have a fairly large range to account for a little fuzziness in accuracy.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1250 - 2015-03-11 19:08:54 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

A max speed garmur or dramiel is faster than any ceptor under equivalent conditions. Fact.


It has a 110km head start, it starts burning the second it sees you on its D-scan, it will be 200km away at the very least when you meet it. No, you won't catch it.

Show me how fast this 110km locking interceptor goes with all of it's rigs dedicated to lock range.

Grasping at straws baltec, grasping at straws. It's quite hilarious, actually.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1251 - 2015-03-11 19:12:18 UTC
Look, quit teaching them howto use their trollceptors when the sov lasers come out, tia

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1252 - 2015-03-11 19:17:35 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:

Show me how fast this 110km locking interceptor goes with all of it's rigs dedicated to lock range.

Grasping at straws baltec, grasping at straws. It's quite hilarious, actually.


Telling you how it is. All of your plans require the cepter to either not be moving or be AFK. Neither of these will happen. Get off EFT and get some in game experience wih chasing down interceptors before you try to say these things and you wont be getting caught out every time.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1253 - 2015-03-11 19:18:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
They're basically going through all of their worries and getting you to teach them how to not die horribly. So they're now even more prepared to sov laser when it inevitably gets put into the game pretty much as it is.


EDIT: You/we/whoever even efted for them exactly what fit to use, too... earlier in this thread or the other one

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1254 - 2015-03-11 19:18:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Ok, gonna bring this up again.

What will the impact of NPC Alts using the Elink be? Can they destroy the hubs/TCUs? Can they 'capture' or Freeport a station?

Also, how do you plan on differentiating the countdown timers associated with station services? Will they have reinforce or just repair immediately?
Kristian Hackett
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1255 - 2015-03-11 19:24:01 UTC
Just because trollceptors are fast doesn't mean they can't be caught with some skillful flying. You're going to lose the speed race if you don't work to get ahead of them.

For example, these ships when flown properly can catch an interceptor.
[Cruor, Speed] (4,169 m/s, cap stable 41.8%, Lv. 5 no implants)

Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II

1MN Microwarpdrive II
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Disruptor II

Small Nosferatu II
Small Nosferatu II
Small Nosferatu II
Small Nosferatu II

Small Auxiliary Thrusters II
Small Dynamic Fuel Valve II
Small Engine Thermal Shielding II

[Garmur, Speed] (5,189 m/s, cap 3m 45s, Lv. 5 no implants)

Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II

1MN Microwarpdrive II
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Disruptor II
Warp Scrambler II

Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Precision Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Precision Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Precision Light Missile

Small Auxiliary Thrusters II
Small Dynamic Fuel Valve II
Small Engine Thermal Shielding II

Aircraft Maintenance - Using a high school diploma to fix what a college degree just f***ed up. "Life is too short to drink cheap beer."
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1256 - 2015-03-11 19:24:52 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

Show me how fast this 110km locking interceptor goes with all of it's rigs dedicated to lock range.

Grasping at straws baltec, grasping at straws. It's quite hilarious, actually.


Telling you how it is. All of your plans require the cepter to either not be moving or be AFK. Neither of these will happen. Get off EFT and get some in game experience wih chasing down interceptors before you try to say these things and you wont be getting caught out every time.

Actually neither of us assume any such thing. We in fact assume that the ceptor will be awake and moving, probably at max velocity. We also assume he'll try to overheat to burn off once we arrive on grid.

And yet, having chased linked kitey fokkers for what feels like forever, we're absolutely confident in our ability to catch them even under those conditions - because he can't warp away at will.

Perhaps, my friend, you don't actually know "how it is".

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1257 - 2015-03-11 19:27:37 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Ok, gonna bring this up again.

What will the impact of NPC Alts using the Elink be? Can they destroy the hubs/TCUs? Can they 'capture' or Freeport a station?

Also, how do you plan on differentiating the countdown timers associated with station services? Will they have reinforce or just repair immediately?

This is actually an excellent question that deserves some thought by CCP.

I'd guess they can probably nuke a TCU or iHub, since those would require someone to anchor a replacement - which you won't be able to do in an NPC corp.

Capping a Freeport station...? That'd be a weird situation. One really trolltastic idea would be to simply have it remain "Freeported" until somone comes along to RF and cap it again. Normal Entosis Link rules would apply - characters in the same NPC corp would be able to defend it, everyone else would be an attacker.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Kristian Hackett
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1258 - 2015-03-11 19:28:34 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:

A max speed garmur or dramiel is faster than any max speed ceptor under equivalent conditions. Fact.

If you can't warp, you're dead.


Actually, a Stiletto can just barely outrun a Garmur, but that's by less than 100 m/s assuming both ships are focusing on maximizing speed over everything else using T2 modules.

Aircraft Maintenance - Using a high school diploma to fix what a college degree just f***ed up. "Life is too short to drink cheap beer."
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1259 - 2015-03-11 19:29:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
As is usual, getting caught up in minor details has obscured the big picture for everyone. Even if you restrict these things to cruisers and up you end up with the situation where THE GROUPS WITH MORE PEOPLE can overload on the groups with fewer. Even if you don't come back to contest the constellation beacons/whatever, you have a situation that is LESS freidnly to the 'smaller groups' than the one that exists right now.

aka Dominion Redux. The base 'goal' of changing the politics of null and 'making the larger groups contract' is the base of the stupidity that keeps happening. CCP is basically trying to short circuit human nature and it's not going to work.

And I'm not kidding, this discussion was the exact same before dominion, with people (like goons) telling everyone "we will use this to make your game experience suck" and legions of short-sighted utopians on the other side proclaiming "this will be great, those big alliances are gonna get what's coming to them!!".

It's all really stupid.
Kristian Hackett
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1260 - 2015-03-11 19:31:42 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

Show me how fast this 110km locking interceptor goes with all of it's rigs dedicated to lock range.

Grasping at straws baltec, grasping at straws. It's quite hilarious, actually.


Telling you how it is. All of your plans require the cepter to either not be moving or be AFK. Neither of these will happen. Get off EFT and get some in game experience wih chasing down interceptors before you try to say these things and you wont be getting caught out every time.

He has a point baltec. If the ceptor is focusing on speed instead of range, sure it can maintain outrunning, but all i have to do is keep it more than 40km off the structure and I win, and that's freakin easy to do with sensor damps. If he's damped up, he needs to move in close, and if he moves in close he's tackled, and if he stays at range there's nothing he can do with the modules. Troll nullified and frustrated.

Aircraft Maintenance - Using a high school diploma to fix what a college degree just f***ed up. "Life is too short to drink cheap beer."