These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

First post First post First post
Author
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#3761 - 2015-03-11 04:25:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Epeen
Freedom Nadd wrote:
As there appears to be a little confusion.

My Plan was to increase the viability of Nullsec by increasing the desire to be IN nullsec.



Well, I am certainly confused.

Nothing in your plan even mentioned null. It was all about nerfing high sec.

Never has forcing one group to go into a place they don't want to be ever equated with increasing desire. What it does equate with is plummeting subscription numbers.

Increase the viability of null by doing stuff in null. Not by wrecking every other region so you can have your cake and eat it too. So come up with a new plan that makes some sense and actually has something to do with improving 0.0. Then get back to us.

Mr Epeen Cool
Burl en Daire
M.O.M.S. Corp
#3762 - 2015-03-11 06:14:43 UTC
Have the corporation declare one held system the capital system. The capital system would declare the prime time and once the capital system moves to level two any system connected to it by a gate could be taken and upgraded to level one. Each level the capital increased would allow the connected system to upgrade one level and every system connected to level two or higher systems could be claimed and upgraded to one level below the connected claimed system.

Each sov level would increase the true sec level and allow for better wealth generation. Each Sov level increase would decrease the prime time window by one hour. Level one sov would have a 5 hour prime time and L2 would have a 4 PT and so on with L5 having a 1 hour PT window.

Having the sov level increase true sec level would give residents a reason to live in the space and upgrade their system. The ISK income still needs to be looked at but at least it would give all sov null the ability to have the highest rewards for being active in the system. As the group grows they could spread out organically out from their capital system.

The leveling system would ensure that used systems became better ISK generators and harder to take but wouldn't allow groups to just take buffer regions without living there. Active occupancy would determine how much ISK could be generated in that system.

All the E-link stuff is good, tweak the values so that some ships can't disengage easily and run away but the system as a whole is good.

Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why. Hunter S. Thompson

Josef Djugashvilis
#3763 - 2015-03-11 07:15:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Josef Djugashvilis
Dear Alp Khan, my friend knows someone who met someone who said that he earns billions of isk in null by ratting in a cruiser.

The above sentence is about a scientific as the claims that Jenn, Karrous and La 'The Scientist' Nariz make.

CCP have frequently shown that Null is doing very nicely in terms of rat bounties etc.

If CCP ever decide that they are indeed unbalanced, they will do something about it.

What some in null do not seem to understand is that some of us simply do not like the ego wars etc in null.

This is not a signature.

Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#3764 - 2015-03-11 07:23:03 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
CCP have frequently shown that Null is doing very nicely in terms of rat bounties etc.

If CCP ever decide that they are indeed unbalanced, they will do something about it.


hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
VolatileVoid
Viking Clan
#3765 - 2015-03-11 08:25:32 UTC
Comparing highsec with nullsec is kind of easy.

PvE ships and equipment are comparable at least isk wise for high and null, so there is no real difference.
Both regions loose ships on an regularly basis, possibly more in null.

The most important difference is the corp. In high it is a disadvantage to be in a corp because of wardeck.
In null it is an advantage or a must to be in a corp at least regarding sov.

I know that we are earning more isk in null with a secure status<-0.4? but the reason why we earn more is because we play together. In null we need to play together because of poses, stations, sov structures, logistic, leadership, active and passive defence, you may add many more to this list but it's always a huge investment for the corp and a continuous maintaining.

So: Highsec has a solo playstyle and nullsec is a group playstyle and it is fair to get rewarded because of playing together.

Obviously there is no goal from CCP getting more player into nullsec because this could be done by making nullsec and empty parts of it more attractive. Instead we will get something that makes it harder to keep, maintain and organize in a way that many more player will decide to live without a corp. In special all player that can't be online every day for 4h will be left out of null sooner or later.
Nyphur
Pillowsoft
#3766 - 2015-03-11 08:33:39 UTC
xttz wrote:
Nyphur wrote:

An alternative sov system:
Here's a much simpler and more intuitive sov system that still uses most of the proposal:

  • There are NO reinforcement timers on any structures. Instead, they're vulnerable to capture during your alliance's vulnerability window.
  • Each structure has an ownership rating out of 4 or 5.
  • Using an Entosis module to capture a structure takes about 40 minutes and reduces the ownership rating by 1 point.
  • Each structure can only lose a maximum of 1 point per day.
  • If ownership drops to 0, the structure becomes neutral and can be captured the next day, or ownership switches immediately to the attacker.
  • Every day that a structure isn't successfully attacked, it regains 1-2 points of ownership automatically.
  • Split the Entosis module into a small Defensive version anyone can use to block capture and a capital sized Offensive version that's required to capture something.


I really like the tug-of-war aspect of this, akin to the old POS-based system but without endless structure shooting. This makes it possible for an attacker to make gradual progress without being dropped back to square 1 for losing a single fight.

The simplest metric here would be to re-purpose the current Strategic Index, and have it increase by 1 for each 24 hour period it's not successfully attacked. As this index is tied to the capture timer, this creates an increasing sense of urgency as each day of failed defense makes subsequent days harder..

Now that I think about it, using the Strategic Index won't work because each structure has to be capturable independently in the new system. Using the Strategic Index as the maximum ownership score could work, but then you would only have 1 point in a system you don't have a strategic index in and that's not really enough warning. Each structure will definitely need to have its own independent capture score.
Ugly Eric
Fistful of Finns
#3767 - 2015-03-11 10:05:00 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
I fear for the future of eve..

Like how Eric manages to change wording to suit his own need.

Is a little naive if he believes this change does not exactly suit Tri's "previous" way of living and playing in nulsec. Adapt or die, is very apt here, look at the sov map and ask yourself - who is the best looking target ATM, a 15,000 man alliance or a 700 man alliance?

A little whiner - "I can only play how ccp let me" - yet is criticizing others for saying they don't like this change and would like to see it made better. Poking fun at those who would push for a better sov system for all.

And being narrow minded enough to want to nerf the rest of eve to suit him , well, nough said.

Eric 4CSMX1 - NEVER


The point was with the changes proposed, that I could also be whining of the changes here beacause they are not filling my personal shang'ri'la way of seeing eve. It was an example of how the game would look, IF I was to propose the changes purely to suit my needs and ignoring all the rest. Too complicated mindgames to you it seems. I did not anywhere claim that those changes would be good for the game. And ofc I can only play the way CCP let's me to play. It's their game for the love of all that is holy.

The criticizing was made towards the majority of posters here, not towards everyone. I have read about 50% of all posts here in this thread and of those posts most ppl want to change the proposed system so that their own individual gamestyle gets profit out of it and ignores all others. Generalization yes. My bad.
GeeBee
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#3768 - 2015-03-11 10:27:37 UTC
Here's what it looks like is going on(and is going on) the number of long term players that aren't playing right now is silly, subscriptions may be up now due to an unusual influx of new players, but how long they will be with the game is dubious.
Phase 1, remove the ability for people to play the game
Phase 2, remove their will to play the game
Phase 3, maybe attempt to give them some kind of a cookie with some other thing?

I've disagreed with the direction of these changes since it started. You're doing a lot of things to de-sandbox the sandbox in a very bad way. First you make it so its really hard to get anywhere and do anything with capitals, then you propose basically making them useless until you've repurposed them in some way that you aren't sure about yet. It appears you're trying to get the playerbase to break into smaller groups in an attempt to bring back small gang pvp on a more regular scale, this is futile because there will not be any de-blobbing or disbanding of any player organization as long is there's other large organizations.

Problems that need to be addressed
sov nullsec being stagnant, with vast amounts of unused space. The entosis link is a nice thought and all to change how the space is fought over, the initial proposal is riddled with holes and lack of details. The worst thing to come out is the primetime mechanic, this is a really bad thing that will further decay timezones outside of the prime area, where-ever it lands, there's nothing worse than logging in and missing a fight because it wasn't in your timezone, what you're proposing is potentially making that a permanent thing.

SOV PVE Content being boring, repetitive, and can support a very finite number of players, im not saying allow us agents, preferably there would be something better, but if it comes down to it ill take it, Sov nullsec is the only space that cannot support an infinite number of PVE content, npc nullsec can, lowsec can, and highsec can through agents. Sov nullsec pvp shouldn't be based around having a staging system that everyone sits around in and does nothing while their alts farm isk. The player experience should be a more complete for a single account with pvp and pve content available locally for all.

AFK CLOAKY CAMPING.
This has been largely weakened by the force projection changes, the ability to bait with warp core stabs after being dropped is hilarious, space herpies. It still is a very tired boring mechanic with no real counter. I went through a wormhole with an alt to somewhere in drone space that was really out in the middle of nowhere, it was an xxdeathxx renter system, anyway my entertainment for the day was giggled while chatting with these renters in local that hid in their pos from my scout cheetah, for 8 hours they did nothing while i did nothing, they hid from an invisible threat that wasn't even there, they cried in local about why i was there and to please leave them alone, i was briefly tempted to offer them a price to leave, and a higher price to leave and collapse the wormhole, but i figured they probably wouldn't pay me anyway and didnt want to lower myself to that level, instead i just commented on whatever they were doing / flying and it was hilarious when one of them was flying around the pos in an interceptor attempting to decloak me. Anyway moral of the story, its a troll mechanic that serves nothing but tears and sadness so you can bully someone whether you have the intention of doing something or not while not putting yourself at any risk.

Botting is still very much a thing in many places, the proposed local delay could have some effect there, but realistically if there is a delay put on local of even 30 seconds sov nullsec will need some kind of a cookie to balance it out, either the removal of the intercepters interdiction nullification or some kind of PVE bonus as previously stated. Right now nullsec is basically just a farming ground for people farming isk through the most boring methods possible, or people attmepting to kill the people farming isk through the most boring methods possible.

SOV PVP being all about very important timers that get blobbed, in some ways i really wish we could go back to the tower spamming, that really made war hell back in the day. 24/7 content with a reason, it was hell, it burned people out, people hated it, but it was constant content. and provided every form of warfare. The arbitrary timer system that was implemented in Dominion was one of the worst possible things and is the reason we have constantly blobbed up to 1000, 2000 then 4000 people in single fights, the force projection change that aimed to remove our ability to transverse is one of the biggest mistakes ever done, changing the reason everyone is going to fight over one system is the real key to fixing it.

Renters being renters, Not sure which is worse, the fact that there's people with the ability to hold large amounts of space to rent, or that there are people that actually agree to pay the rent. Its a disease on the game and should be snuffed out by whatever means needed. And again back to botting renter empires allow people to do botting and RMT via third parties with some degree of safety.

Anyway I'm going back to playing minecraft and watching TV, hopefully by June there's something to do in this terrible game.
Ugly Eric
Fistful of Finns
#3769 - 2015-03-11 11:04:44 UTC
GeeBee wrote:
SNIP a wall of text


I found myself reading this above post and first started to grow red on my face of fury but towards end of it starting to nod as agreement.

Now there is actually one point I would like to tackle of it. The mission running part.

Fozzie said on EDU that delayed local is coming to nullsec. That creates lots of problems isk making wise. However, the agents to sov stations could be a pretty much perfect counter to that.

Not only would it generate infinite support of isk to null dwellers, it would also make ppl to travel a bit between systems. Travelling around = content.

But the missions would be a good counter to AFK cloaking, as the missions need to be probed down. And with the combination of nerfing pvp probing that Fozzie hinted, this could be a good thing. The mission runner is safe as long as he pays attention and as long as their homespace has intel working on gate travels. The AFK cloaker cant just idly scan anomalies and get a target, but haveto use combat probes and thus become visible.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#3770 - 2015-03-11 11:07:14 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
VolatileVoid wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Would you guys all please unsub now and get it over with so CCP can move forward and away from "Sov Rent Online"? If you would have provided content instead of "blue donut online" none of this would have happened. Your bad I guess.


It looks like we are already unsubbing.
Average online numbers from 2010 including 2013 49k.
Apr 14 to Mar 15 37k average online ppl.
Thanks for making room for younger players. +1


Where are the younger players? If PCU is going steadily down, then people are leaving faster than they are joining. Any Eve player should want more people around, not less. More people: more targets.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Bowbndr
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#3771 - 2015-03-11 11:12:59 UTC
I honestly don't see where any of this is going to amount to much anyways, CCP asks for feedback but yet seams to listen to none of it. I get they want to see more pvp in eve, but changing every mechanic to favor the Hit and run PVP'ers will only steepen the slide from EVE to space based WOW.
Deck Cadelanne
CAStabouts
#3772 - 2015-03-11 11:24:53 UTC
Scrap the strategic indices. Keep the current decay mechanic for the military and industrial indices. If they are at zero, all sov structures go into permanent vulnerable mode. As long as the indices stay above zero, prime time mechanic applies.

Ought to quickly weed out absentee landlords. It also ought to quickly flag those systems that actually are "worthless" in terms of being viable for folks to live in; those systems could then be buffed over time to make it worth people's time to go occupy and hold them.

"When the going gets weird, the weird turn professional."

- Hunter S. Thompson

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#3773 - 2015-03-11 11:26:55 UTC
Ugly Eric wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
I fear for the future of eve..

Like how Eric manages to change wording to suit his own need.

Is a little naive if he believes this change does not exactly suit Tri's "previous" way of living and playing in nulsec. Adapt or die, is very apt here, look at the sov map and ask yourself - who is the best looking target ATM, a 15,000 man alliance or a 700 man alliance?

A little whiner - "I can only play how ccp let me" - yet is criticizing others for saying they don't like this change and would like to see it made better. Poking fun at those who would push for a better sov system for all.

And being narrow minded enough to want to nerf the rest of eve to suit him , well, nough said.

Eric 4CSMX1 - NEVER


The point was with the changes proposed, that I could also be whining of the changes here beacause they are not filling my personal shang'ri'la way of seeing eve. It was an example of how the game would look, IF I was to propose the changes purely to suit my needs and ignoring all the rest. Too complicated mindgames to you it seems. I did not anywhere claim that those changes would be good for the game. And ofc I can only play the way CCP let's me to play. It's their game for the love of all that is holy.

The criticizing was made towards the majority of posters here, not towards everyone. I have read about 50% of all posts here in this thread and of those posts most ppl want to change the proposed system so that their own individual gamestyle gets profit out of it and ignores all others. Generalization yes. My bad.

Fair enough but a big problem with this thread has been people saying things like "yeah this is great will mean end of goons" or worse, "this is terrible" but not adding reason or alternatives to their comments.

As I've said in previous posts, the stated goals of the change is great, the way in which those changes are being implemented leaves a lot to be desired. Players like you, who have been around a while and have personal feelings and ideas should be posting them here for CCP to see.
This is our game and if we can't stand up and tell CCP how we want to play it, we will end up with Sov warfare based on FW concepts, where only a few from each alliance can participate depending on "prime time" selected.
Others may not want to play the same as you or have the same ideas but for the sake of "our game" get them out there to be seen. You may just have that one idea that could make things work.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3774 - 2015-03-11 11:34:09 UTC
Freedom Nadd wrote:
As there appears to be a little confusion.

My Plan was to increase the viability of Nullsec by increasing the desire to be IN nullsec.

Unfortunately, highsec and nullsec are not the only two choices available.

What CCP needs to do is buff nullsec for a change. Give people an actual reason to want to fight for their space besides moons and epeen. It's basically the same problem with highsec wardecs, on a grander scale.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno

Bowbndr
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#3775 - 2015-03-11 11:35:05 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
The spreading sov defence across the constellation is nice, the defensive bonus too, freeporting even sounds hilarious.

Primetime system that puts ALL the sov warfare obligations of a single alliance onto only one TZ is absolutely terrible. Why should I be excluded from participating because my alliance primetime is EU and I'm US? Is the solution to just "go find another alliance"?

Is forcing groups to ditch people outside of their primetime intended, since non primetime players are basically useless for anything except leeching and POS warfare.

I also notice a total lack of information on benefits to holding sov, just things that make it far more difficult to do so.

No mentioned benefits of holding this now much harder to keep sov, no mention of say volume reduction for system upgrades, no benefits of Sov cost reduction for activity, or actual benefits to holdings sov.

Just making it harder to hold space, easier to destroy sov structures like Ihubs, and no counterpart to allow rapidly flipped sov to be rebuilt or repaired in a timely manner.

TLDR: Can we get a volume reduction on the various sov upgrades so the larger ones can actually be brought in via JF? And/or changes that actively upgrade space over time, so that being compressed down into mediocre space allows a higher degree of player use in a smaller area?




I think the point is to make it so there IS NO point to holding sov anymore. CCP is making it very clear that if it dosent lead to ships going boom they no longer want it in EVE and the only advantage to holding sov long term is if you have a group that can mine it and produce goods for your Corp, alliance or coalition.

this is just the continuation that CCP has been on for the last year or so to cut the industry out of eve and make it in to a space based version of WOW
Emmy Mnemonic
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3776 - 2015-03-11 11:56:04 UTC
I still don't understand why alliance would fight over sov in the first place?

There is no actual value in owning sov for alliances, the incomes from upgraded rattingsystems, combat complex systems and mining systems goes mosty to the individuals, not the alliances. And the incomes from ratting/mining/plexing are so small compared to the incomes from the R64 moons - for alliances.

And with Entosis-links any sov will be easy to take (which is good).

But why protect something that has no value and that is easy for others to take? I just don't get it?

No alliance will fight for sov in nullsec, because there are no incomes for alliances connected to sov!
Every alliance will fight for the R64 moons in nullsec. Because that's where the incomes are for alliances.

So tie the incomes from R64 moons to sov, somehow let sov and upgrades regulate the incomes from the R64 moons:
* R64 moon without sov -> bad yield from that moon
* R64 moon with sov -> better yield from that moon
* R64 with sov and upgrades -> really good yield from that moon

This gives a reason for alliances to own sov. Sov is still easier to take using the Entosis links, but now alliances will have strong incitaments to protect their sov. The incitament to protect R64 moons is allready there.

Now there will be fights over both moons and sov between alliances. Owning sov is necessary and important. Owning sov affects the incomes of alliances, not of individuals. Attacking your enemies sov weakens them, it's a viable and important strategic target. Content is generated.

Ex ex-CEO of Svea Rike [.S.R.]

Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3777 - 2015-03-11 11:59:57 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Dear Alp Khan, my friend knows someone who met someone who said that he earns billions of isk in null by ratting in a cruiser.



Unironically, that pretty much seems like the only thing you can credibly say about the whole individual income debate. And mind you, your post is deceptive, you are projecting yourself onto the people who avoid word of mouth and talk of their own experiences.

Why? Because the posters who openly say that null individual income is the worst in EVE back it up with figures. They compare it to wormholes, low-sec FW and highsec L4s and incursions and find it to be minuscule in comparison with even highsec. Their figures and math show the obvious conclusion that can also reach through calculations.

On the other hand, I haven't seen you provide figures so far. You haven't provided a coherent argument either. In the absence of those, you will find it difficult to be taken seriously by your peers.


Freedom Nadd
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#3778 - 2015-03-11 12:41:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Freedom Nadd
Mr Epeen wrote:
Freedom Nadd wrote:
As there appears to be a little confusion.

My Plan was to increase the viability of Nullsec by increasing the desire to be IN nullsec.



Well, I am certainly confused.

Nothing in your plan even mentioned null. It was all about nerfing high sec.

Never has forcing one group to go into a place they don't want to be ever equated with increasing desire. What it does equate with is plummeting subscription numbers.

Increase the viability of null by doing stuff in null. Not by wrecking every other region so you can have your cake and eat it too. So come up with a new plan that makes some sense and actually has something to do with improving 0.0. Then get back to us.

Mr Epeen Cool


Working on the CCP assumption that a) Nullsec is a-okay and does not need any further "increases" to income generation and by extension b) Null is the ultimate risk to reward and as such should be the upper limit on potential income for a capsuleer.

Starting from those two givens, it is obvious that to make null sec truly attractive you must balance the income within the less risky areas, as it currently stands there is the dichotomy that high sec is both the safest space to operate AND the most lucrative individually. Until that is addressed, null sec will only remain truly attractive to those who want to plant towers and live off moon goo.

** Clarification, in "risk" I am also factoring in the cost of maintaining the space, in both ingame isk and player time plus the ever soul destroying maintenance of alliance functions. **
Erasmus Grant
Order of the Eclipse
Triumvirate.
#3779 - 2015-03-11 12:55:46 UTC
[url]http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2dgv6n/ccp_allows_siphon_detection_through_api/[/url]

If you cannot get this right . . .
davet517
Raata Invicti
#3780 - 2015-03-11 13:24:01 UTC
Alp Khan wrote:
[Because the posters who openly say that null individual income is the worst in EVE back it up with figures. They compare it to wormholes, low-sec FW and highsec L4s and incursions and find it to be minuscule in comparison with even highsec. Their figures and math show the obvious conclusion that can also reach through calculations.


Only CCP has hard numbers about those things, and they probably should publish them to end that debate. I very seriously doubt that if you averaged out income per player per hour for high sec, low sec, and null sec dwellers, that null sec would come out on the short end. Income inequality is probably greatest in null sec. The rich get richer while most players just get by and are in fact probably no better off than if they were playing in high-sec or low-sec.

CCP probably should publish some numbers about that. They have an economist on staff. It shouldn't be too hard. Of all the income being generated in null, how is it being distributed? Is there massive income inequality, similar to the real-world? If so, it would account for the perception that null income is bad, when it's actually not.