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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

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X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#3701 - 2015-03-10 15:04:34 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Nyphur I've read your stuff over the years about making the game less artificial and more immersive. I thought you would suggest something different.

Suggestion 1:
Instead of random anomalies appearing in space, CCP should allow 0.0 XXX structure owners to put up XXX amplifiers at random spots within a Constellation - two per system per structure (a main one, and a backup). These amplifiers amplify the effects of the structure (provide bonuses). The bigger the constellation, the higher the bonuses (geography matters). The amplifiers are immune to scan probes. The main amplifiers are activated once the structure XXX is reinforced. The backups are activated once the main one goes down (after, say 10 minutes). And by anchoring, I mean 20 of these things can be put into a destroyer, and it takes about as long to anchor as a mobile depot. Maybe instead of "main and backup" the backup amplifiers are activated at random after a main one goes down.

This way, sov is reinforced not by time but by players actively "building fortress walls" in their area.
Edit 1: This also moves towards the goal of "Player Built Everything" in Eve.
Edit 2: You could also put up the amplifiers in any system within XXX LY from structure. Put even more weird geography at play.

In the end, essentially the same sov mechanic as proposed by CCP, but less "artificial."

Suggestion 2: Allow BOTH entosis whatever module OR DPS to put a structure into reinforce. 10 minutes = POCO level reinforcement, and scale it up from there. Doesn't make sense that a structure can't also be reinforced through damage.
Ugly Eric
Fistful of Finns
#3702 - 2015-03-10 15:11:18 UTC
Lord Zeuus wrote:
CCP if you're listening:

Delayed local in Null
No Fleet Warps
Supers that have no real DPS use
SOV that can be taken by a frigate

if those are goals that become reality then I'm out.


Stop waiting, just unsub now, and make EvE a better place for us all. Pls take all your like minded friends with you away from the game o7
VolatileVoid
Viking Clan
#3703 - 2015-03-10 15:15:25 UTC  |  Edited by: VolatileVoid
X Gallentius wrote:
Would you guys all please unsub now and get it over with so CCP can move forward and away from "Sov Rent Online"? If you would have provided content instead of "blue donut online" none of this would have happened. Your bad I guess.


It looks like we are already unsubbing.
Average online numbers from 2010 including 2013 49k.
Apr 14 to Mar 15 37k average online ppl.

If CCP continues taking away ppl's. toys this will drop further.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#3704 - 2015-03-10 15:17:15 UTC
VolatileVoid wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Would you guys all please unsub now and get it over with so CCP can move forward and away from "Sov Rent Online"? If you would have provided content instead of "blue donut online" none of this would have happened. Your bad I guess.


It looks like we are already unsubbing.
Average online numbers from 2010 including 2013 49k.
Apr 14 to Mar 15 37k average online ppl.
Thanks for making room for younger players. +1
PANZER1233000
Monkey Attack Squad
Goonswarm Federation
#3705 - 2015-03-10 15:28:52 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Finally caught up with the thread. :)

Hey folks, thanks for the feedback so far. I spent most of the day at work today reading feedback (here, on twitter, on reddit, in slack and just about everywhere else), taking notes, and discussing the feedback with the CSM and with our team here in the office. Thanks to all the people that have posted constructive feedback so far, in any of those places.

I want to reassure people that we've announced these plans this early for a reason. We want to take advantage of the time this gives us to carefully look at feedback and respond without needing to rush anything. In the past we probably would have waited until Fanfest just to get the reveal moment, but at this point we've learned as a company how much more important substance is than spectacle.

I've noticed a fair bit of skepticism about my comments that this design is built to be flexible, since similar phrases were used back in 2009. I too remember the launch of Dominion sov from the perspective of a player (I'm on record that Dominion is my least favourite EVE expansion) and I can't blame people for being cautious. This is the kind of thing where actions always speak louder than words, so I'll just say that I hope that for many of you the actions you've seen from CCP recently have increased your trust that we will follow through. And for those of you that are still unconvinced, my goal is to change some of your minds with our upcoming actions in this area of Nullsec and Sov.

Since this thread is a bit hectic, we're currently planning to do approach some of the conversation surrounding these changes a little differently. We'll be reading all the feedback here and elsewhere, and then pulling specific issues into their own dev blogs and own threads for further targeted discussion with fewer distractions. It's a bit of an experiment but I think it has a lot of potential.

After discussing the early feedback with the team here, we've decided to begin this feedback and iteration process with a focus on the time zone mechanics. We're seeing a ton of discussion and quite a bit of displeasure over the time zone mechanics as they are laid out in the blog.
So you're going to see us asking a lot of questions in a number of different areas to the players who have opinions on the way we handle time zones in Sov. The goal is to get to the core of the concerns people are expressing about these mechanics, figure out what player needs we are missing in this draft, and see if we can't design a system that meets more of those needs more effectively. I don't expect we're going to make everybody happy, as time zone mechanics are one of the stickiest design issues in a worldwide single shard MMO. However we do think it's likely that your feedback can help get us to a better design than what we have right now.

I'll also probably be quickly spinning off a discussion of the module balance surrounding the Entosis Link, since that's an area where I expect we can calm some fears relatively easily. The short version is that we have all the tools of EVE's module design at our disposal to ensure that no specific tactics get out of hand. So if problems show up in discussion and playtesting we're happy to let players try to find a counter and then relatively easily step in if that counter doesn't materialize.

There's a lot of other areas where we're seeing your concern, and we're not forgetting about any of them. Keep posting your feedback calmly and constructively, keep talking to each other, keep theorycrafting and blogging and podcasting. As people spend more time discussing and thinking about the implications of these changes, we know that the collective EVE hive mind will have a lot to offer, as it has in the past.

I'm gonna call it a night, but expect some of the first issue breakout threads tomorrow (we'll link to them from this thread) and try to leave me with a reasonable number of posts to catch up on in the morning ok? Big smile


Maybe something from this renovation work, but that would not lose what is already there and everyone was happy - make one region each NPC faction with the old system Sovereignty, other regions do with the new system Sovereignty.
Philip Ogtaulmolfi
We are not bad. Just unlucky
#3706 - 2015-03-10 15:31:33 UTC
In general, I agree with the idea behind this changes and I expec they will turn nullsec into something more active and fun that it is today.

I specially like the defense multiplier and how it will break the actual N+1 tactic to something more in the line of ยท3n+1 or 4n+1, and the varied possibilities for strategies in the battle for the command nodes.

Here I foresee a problem, and that is that it will be neccessary to have more FC than now to have the flexibility to control de batlescape. It will lead in the close future to cries demanding the nerf of intelligence, because it is overpowered.

Due to this, I think that the main task for an alliance attacking out of the vulnerability windows will be to degrade the different indexes of the owning alliance, to reduce the odds in favor of the defender. It is neccessary that the attacking party can reduce all the indices, even the strategic one because it will be crucial to win and will provide some content out of prime time.

Related to this, and to reduce the grinding I would prefer the military index and mining index (I think that the industrial index need to be influenced by all industrial work, not only mining) linked to simple presence in space. What would add to the index is being in space, not cloaked, not in a POS and not warping, doing whatever you want. Real and simple occupancy.

Let slip the trolls of forums.
Captain H4rlock
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#3707 - 2015-03-10 16:31:44 UTC
how about not all but only the "boarder systems" are vunrable for each alliance
and not 10 nodes but more like 5
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#3708 - 2015-03-10 16:37:26 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
I was able to earn 108m an hour in Cobalt Edge with a carrier and oracle on grid


Wow, 108 mil per hour (54 mil per hour per toon). Nice.

In high sec you can use a Mach and make 86 mil per hour doing lvl 3 missions while being protected by CONCORD.

So for the cost of using TWO characters and a CAPITAL SHIP that takes months to train for, and while flying in space where the space police won't help you, you get a whopping, mind blowing 22 million isk extra per hour total.

Thanks for helping us empirically demonstrate the imbalances we were discussing, imbalances that end up distorting everything ccp tries to do with null sec.


Level 3's, as you once said to me which was not moderated but my reply was so it must be OK, "Keep taking your meds!"

Is it you who keeps reporting my posts, bit sad if it is, I bet you report this one too as off topic so your off topic one gets left with no reply, its about your level isn't it!

As for your points on this CCP know what income levels are, see what Fozzie's said on income about null sec revenue, so keep beating your drum on level 4's it is not listened to.


That's funny that you talk about taking my meds then go off on a spiel that would suggest one needs to take some meds.

I've never once reported one of your posts, why would I your not important enough to warrant more than a post reply. That you think you are that important (and that you view post reporting as a weapon) says volumes .

And I heard what Fozzie said about income levels. I don't know why is so hard for some people (whether they work for ccp of just play the game) to understand the issue involved and separate general isk generation from individual wealth generation balance. It's like that in real life, I live in a country with a $20 trillion economy, doesn't mean I personally have $20 trillion lol.

The fact that a bunch of people use null as semi-passive isktar 50-60 mil isk per hour fun land says nothing about the incentives to LIVE there. That it takes you a CAPITAL SHIP and TWO TOONS to make LESS than an incursion runner should tell you there is a problem. If you were interested in the truth of the matter (a truth you yourself demonstrated) we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Andrea Keuvo
Rusty Pricks
#3709 - 2015-03-10 17:09:53 UTC
Aryndel Vyst wrote:
CCP, can you please address the point to living in null sec? I mean my logic is that because there is more risk to living in null sec there should be more reward, but as it stands this is not the case. Do you have any plans to address the gaping goatse-sized hole in the risk vs. reward proprotion of nullsec vs say high sec?

Thanks.

Yours in christ,

Aryndel Vyst
Director of Personnel Operations and Logistics
Goonswarm Federation


Of course not. I mean why make nullsec space actually worth living in BEFORE you make it a pain in the ass to defend? Putting the cart before the horse is CCP standard deployment methodology.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#3710 - 2015-03-10 17:58:00 UTC
Andrea Keuvo wrote:
Aryndel Vyst wrote:
CCP, can you please address the point to living in null sec? I mean my logic is that because there is more risk to living in null sec there should be more reward, but as it stands this is not the case. Do you have any plans to address the gaping goatse-sized hole in the risk vs. reward proprotion of nullsec vs say high sec?

Thanks.

Yours in christ,

Aryndel Vyst
Director of Personnel Operations and Logistics
Goonswarm Federation


Of course not. I mean why make nullsec space actually worth living in BEFORE you make it a pain in the ass to defend? Putting the cart before the horse is CCP standard deployment methodology.

Burn it all down before you rebuild.

Basically first, all the opposing 0.0 dreams must be cleared away, then CCP's 0.0 vision will have room for construction

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#3711 - 2015-03-10 18:19:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Jenn aSide wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
I was able to earn 108m an hour in Cobalt Edge with a carrier and oracle on grid


Wow, 108 mil per hour (54 mil per hour per toon). Nice.

In high sec you can use a Mach and make 86 mil per hour doing lvl 3 missions while being protected by CONCORD.

So for the cost of using TWO characters and a CAPITAL SHIP that takes months to train for, and while flying in space where the space police won't help you, you get a whopping, mind blowing 22 million isk extra per hour total.

Thanks for helping us empirically demonstrate the imbalances we were discussing, imbalances that end up distorting everything ccp tries to do with null sec.


Level 3's, as you once said to me which was not moderated but my reply was so it must be OK, "Keep taking your meds!"

Is it you who keeps reporting my posts, bit sad if it is, I bet you report this one too as off topic so your off topic one gets left with no reply, its about your level isn't it!

As for your points on this CCP know what income levels are, see what Fozzie's said on income about null sec revenue, so keep beating your drum on level 4's it is not listened to.


That's funny that you talk about taking my meds then go off on a spiel that would suggest one needs to take some meds.

I've never once reported one of your posts, why would I your not important enough to warrant more than a post reply. That you think you are that important (and that you view post reporting as a weapon) says volumes .

And I heard what Fozzie said about income levels. I don't know why is so hard for some people (whether they work for ccp of just play the game) to understand the issue involved and separate general isk generation from individual wealth generation balance. It's like that in real life, I live in a country with a $20 trillion economy, doesn't mean I personally have $20 trillion lol.

The fact that a bunch of people use null as semi-passive isktar 50-60 mil isk per hour fun land says nothing about the incentives to LIVE there. That it takes you a CAPITAL SHIP and TWO TOONS to make LESS than an incursion runner should tell you there is a problem. If you were interested in the truth of the matter (a truth you yourself demonstrated) we wouldn't be having this discussion.


Well we had a debate once before and you resorted to asking me about meds, which is kinda meh, I am just reminding you about it. However I am getting my posts reported and as it was one you strongly disagree with I assumed it was you, so if it was not you then I apologise.

In France which is where I live, the government gives money to people for various different reasons and then taxes that overall income. If you look at the Goons the moon goo is used to supply line members with replacement ships, to get them into some ships they even set it up so the Goon grunt can make ISK. Other alliances without moon income could not really do an SRP apart from say logi. As such it counts within the benefits and losses of the pilot.

Actually a semi-afk passive Ishtar running anoms in highly protected space is little different to running a level 4 in Inaya, just check how many missions runners have been killed there recently and you cannot really run missions efficiently afk or while in a CTA fleet.

Incursions are different to level 4's, carrier ratting in null space is the main way for grunts to make ISK and are comparable to missions as being the bread and butter of incomes. I made a lot more from anoms because it was a lot less hassle. At one point in Osmon I was doing level 4's in a navy scorp which was faction fit and the number of times I had to evade ganks made it not worthwhile. I went to an easier mission hub which was not as good for LP's, yet people tell me hisec is safe, that was 15m to 30m.

I don't dispurt you mission figures, you are obviously a very good PvE players, you blitz and fit efficiently, not everyone does as you do, hell now I run level 4's in Osmon with two T2 fitted Paladins, though have not been doing them recently, been shooting gankers for fun.

But still apart from our disagreement on comparing hisec to 0.0, I do believe that income in lower level truesec systems needs to be higher for the increased risk and more to do with fairly recent changes in game which I detailed in my last post which was removed by the mod. So you feel this and I feel this, so can we leave the comparison between hisec out of this because for many of us we much prerfer to be in 0.0 rather than hisec.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Kinis Deren
Mosquito Squadron
D0GS OF WAR
#3712 - 2015-03-10 18:24:44 UTC
This question is for CCP Fozzie and Team 5 O:

I want to raise a concern I have concerning current TCU mechanics that may be used to circumvent the underlying intention of the proposed new sov system and in particular with regards to the of use of the entosis module on TCUs:

AttentionThe Rise of the TrollPOSAttention

From Evelopedia:

Quote:
Anchoring: Must be anchored within 300AU of a systems sun; but must not be within 50km of a starbase's control tower.


What is to stop a defending alliance from anchoring the TCU near a Deathstar or a Dickstar POS to provide AFK sov defence for a given system?

Are there any plans to change the requirements for TCU placement such that they can only be placed (or moved for existing TCUs) to an unoccupied moon?
Lurifax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3713 - 2015-03-10 18:47:43 UTC
Kinis Deren wrote:
This question is for CCP Fozzie and Team 5 O:

I want to raise a concern I have concerning current TCU mechanics that may be used to circumvent the underlying intention of the proposed new sov system and in particular with regards to the of use of the entosis module on TCUs:

AttentionThe Rise of the TrollPOSAttention

From Evelopedia:

Quote:
Anchoring: Must be anchored within 300AU of a systems sun; but must not be within 50km of a starbase's control tower.


What is to stop a defending alliance from anchoring the TCU near a Deathstar or a Dickstar POS to provide AFK sov defence for a given system?

Are there any plans to change the requirements for TCU placement such that they can only be placed (or moved for existing TCUs) to an unoccupied moon?


Nothing, but the TCU will only be for putting your name on the map, nothing else.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#3714 - 2015-03-10 18:51:18 UTC
Lurifax wrote:
Nothing, but the TCU will only be for putting your name on the map, nothing else.


Well, the 25% fuel savings will be a nice bennie for the trollpos.

Nyphur's proposal sounds interesting, except for the bit where it requires a capital ship to contest sov.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
davet517
Raata Invicti
#3715 - 2015-03-10 19:32:14 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:

No sorry but your wrong -
The ONLY problem with sov as it is today is the fact Sheer numbers will always win. This isn't changing under the new proposals, in fact it is going to make it easier for sheer numbers to win.

This is being magnified under the new sov proposal by becoming "he who can field the most in a 4 hour period wins".

I'm curious, How do you think these changes will affect the the big coalitions? I agree having 2 or 3 mega groups holding all the prime sov and bleeding everyone else out of nul is not good but these changes do little to change this.
Holding sov you don't use is a privilege of the rich and stupid. All they will do is drop sov in all the crappy systems they never use and because they have overwhelming numbers and a coalition to back them up, won't lose any system they want to keep.


I'm glad you have conviction in your opinions, but at this point neither one of us is "wrong" because neither one of us knows what's going to happen. We have a difference of opinion.

When you think tactically, about a single grid, or even a single constellation, you are right. He who can bring the biggest numbers will win tactically. Strategically, owning a sprawling empire might become a major pain in the butt if it's being attacked on many fronts at once. The pain will be compounded if part of your sprawling empire is occupied by renters whose only answer to an attacker is to safe up and wait for them to go away. You'll have to actively defend those renters now, or lose them.

If, and it is a big if, lots of people start attacking the big power blocs from many directions now that you don't have to have a super-cap blob to do it, it's going to put them under a lot of pressure, they're going to burn out, and crack. It's a pattern we've seen in Eve again and again. Being under sustained attack is a "life on hold" event that no entity in the game has been able to sustain for long.

Tactically, you can say that there is nobody who can compete with the big power blocs in a straight up, one off, fight, and you're correct. Strategically, they won't be able to hold onto their sprawling empires forever if they are constantly having to defend them from attack by many smaller entities simultaneously. Will that happen? Nobody really knows. It will depend on how much pent up appetite there is to see the "blue donut" explode.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#3716 - 2015-03-10 19:52:42 UTC
massadeath of moa has committed to ending our 0.0 nightmare

just as with fatigue, an unbeatable weapon that will bring him victory

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Freedom Nadd
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#3717 - 2015-03-10 19:57:10 UTC
How to fix Nullsec, the 15 point plan.


1. Reduce Highsec incursion spawns to 2.

2. Increase Sansha HP in incursions by 50%.

3. Reduce income curve for HQ's to 20 million at 50 ships.

4. Increase Level 4 mission standing requirement to 7.0, Increase Level 5 mission requirement to 9.0.

5. Add dynamic rat spawning to Level 3 and higher missions, increase mission rat numbers depending on number of ships in fleet (1 ship - normal spawn, 2 ships +75% spawns, 3 ships +200% spawns, 4 ships +350% spawns).

6. Remove State standings for mission agents.

7. Increase high sec ice anomaly respawn timer to 8 hours. Increase low sec ice anomaly respawn timer to 6 hours.

8. Remove any ore above Scordite from high sec.

9. Allow Rorqual class ships in High sec.

10. Remove ALL usable ore from starter systems and 1.0 space.

11. Increase NPC Corp tax to 20%.

12. Increase high sec manufacturing tax by 25%.

13. Decrease high sec refine rate by 25% and increase refine tax by 10%.

14. Remove all exploration combat sites from high sec.

15. Reduce high sec exploration sites by 50%.

Of course, will never happen.
Maenth
The Thirteen Provinces
#3718 - 2015-03-10 19:58:58 UTC
I love the spirit of thise changes especially with giving significance to constellations. However, as I imagine the flow of people taking part in the activities, I believe the reality will just feel like the system is convoluted.

- Attackers are uncontested? They can take the constellation easily.
- Attackers are challenged by defenders? Defenders WILL stop them at constellation chokepoints, battle will ensue until the stronger fleet wins.

In either case, the battle for the constellation isn't really dependant on Entosis links; the Entosis links are just the mechanic handed by CCP to make the things happen.


IDEA: Sov Structures still have hitpoints to shoot through, must be destroyed to capture territory, and most importantly the amount of hit points those structures have is scaled according to the owner's activity level in that system and/or constellation (recalculated during DT) ... SO, unused space is hard to hold, used space is easy to hold, and if alliances want to hold large areas of space (buffer zones?) then they have to actually invest and risk a lot to fortify those isolated chokepoints.

I really like the idea of doing something where constellations matter, but the entosis links and capture events look like a complicated gimmick... ^^;

Drones. Drones are a means to an end. An end to the ruthless Caldari 'progress' machines. An end to the barbaric 'redemption' proposed by the Amarr. What they see as chaos shall be my perfect order, merely beyond their comprehension.
Maralek
Roving Guns Inc.
Pandemic Legion
#3719 - 2015-03-10 20:31:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Maralek
.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#3720 - 2015-03-10 20:42:21 UTC
Maralek wrote:
i am completely underwhelmed and annoyed ,the game i once new and loved is slowy being dismantled and ruined, B-R made the news. A couple of cruisers fighting over a stick in the back end of nowhere wont.
CCP must hate us

Maybe after people like us are gone eve can truly reach it's golden age.

Factional Sovereignty, plexes and all.

Fweddit will turn into the next cfc and we'll become their pets.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?