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[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance

First post First post First post
Author
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#881 - 2015-03-09 23:58:08 UTC
its shockingly funny to watch all of you running around worrying about frigates.


it clearly shows how incapable you are of understanding the very simple layout of these sov mechanics.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Killian Cormac
Cormac Distribution
#882 - 2015-03-09 23:58:26 UTC
The other nice thing about 'trollceptors' is that they provide a low SP barrier for new players, so that they can feel relevant in sov-related activities without being just another line pilot in a Maulus.
Acuma
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#883 - 2015-03-09 23:59:28 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
its shockingly funny to watch all of you running around worrying about frigates.


it clearly shows how incapable you are of understanding the very simple layout of these sov mechanics.


But frigates are indestructible! What can you do against them? /sarcasm off
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#884 - 2015-03-09 23:59:55 UTC
Acuma wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
its shockingly funny to watch all of you running around worrying about frigates.


it clearly shows how incapable you are of understanding the very simple layout of these sov mechanics.


But frigates are indestructible! What can you do against them? /sarcasm off

Pretty much the entire thread, really.
Tycho VI
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#885 - 2015-03-10 00:00:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Tycho VI
But I mean....You start using the link from a position, you can not deviate more then 90 degrees or a certain verible from the start position or the link breaks....would this alleviate any of the trolling concerns at all? Considering people are worried about users trolling by orbiting at 100+km with a small sig moving at 7km a sec... Not just one guy, but like a fleet of 40+ inty or something in orbit doing a troll circle....If they had to stay within 90 degrees of the start position relative to the structure(you may be able to track them at some point if they make a mistake in their spiral with a couple long range defenders/trolling requires piloting skill etc).
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#886 - 2015-03-10 00:00:17 UTC
Acuma wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
its shockingly funny to watch all of you running around worrying about frigates.

it clearly shows how incapable you are of understanding the very simple layout of these sov mechanics.

But frigates are indestructible! What can you do against them? /sarcasm off

Aha, so it's actually going to return to an isk-on-field methodology.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Acuma
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#887 - 2015-03-10 00:04:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Acuma
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Acuma wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
its shockingly funny to watch all of you running around worrying about frigates.

it clearly shows how incapable you are of understanding the very simple layout of these sov mechanics.

But frigates are indestructible! What can you do against them? /sarcasm off

Aha, so it's actually going to return to an isk-on-field methodology.


Numerous counters exist,. If the almighty goons are afraid of a few trollceptors......you have concerns about being able to defend your renters. Boo frickin hoo. I wonder how all the FW folks deal with the ALMIGHTY ceptor.
SilentAsTheGrave
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#888 - 2015-03-10 00:06:56 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
its shockingly funny to watch all of you running around worrying about frigates.


it clearly shows how incapable you are of understanding the very simple layout of these sov mechanics.

Perhaps I missed it due to goons doing a thread CTA, but what are your thoughts on the whole thing?
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#889 - 2015-03-10 00:07:06 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
its shockingly funny to watch all of you running around worrying about frigates.


it clearly shows how incapable you are of understanding the very simple layout of these sov mechanics.

hrm yes i need to assert my superiority over eveo but i can't be too committal, yeah, let's post a nice vague, unsubstantiated thing

mmm there it is
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#890 - 2015-03-10 00:07:07 UTC
Acuma wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Acuma wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
its shockingly funny to watch all of you running around worrying about frigates.

it clearly shows how incapable you are of understanding the very simple layout of these sov mechanics.

But frigates are indestructible! What can you do against them? /sarcasm off

Aha, so it's actually going to return to an isk-on-field methodology.


Numerous counters exist,. If the almighty goons are afraid of a few trollceptors......you have concerns about being able to defend your renters. Boo frickin hoo. I wonder how all the FW folks deal with the ALMIGHTY ceptor.


I have yet to see one that would kill said trollcepter. To date they all require the cepter to be either be AFK or sitting still.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#891 - 2015-03-10 00:07:57 UTC
Acuma wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Acuma wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
its shockingly funny to watch all of you running around worrying about frigates.

it clearly shows how incapable you are of understanding the very simple layout of these sov mechanics.

But frigates are indestructible! What can you do against them? /sarcasm off

Aha, so it's actually going to return to an isk-on-field methodology.


Numerous counters exist,. If the almighty goons are afraid of a few trollceptors......you have concerns about being able to defend your renters. Boo frickin hoo. I wonder how all the FW folks deal with the ALMIGHTY ceptor.

Renters huh.... hmm

Moa might end our 0.0 -renter- dream, then

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#892 - 2015-03-10 00:09:19 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
its shockingly funny to watch all of you running around worrying about frigates.

it clearly shows how incapable you are of understanding the very simple layout of these sov mechanics.

hrm yes i need to assert my superiority over eveo but i can't be too committal, yeah, let's post a nice vague, unsubstantiated thing

mmm there it is

Aww I'm now vaguely turned on by this.

But, like CCP's information thus far, it needs more details.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#893 - 2015-03-10 00:14:01 UTC
So we're supposed to pretend that the gate is an ihub and the 27 people are sovlasering it...?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#894 - 2015-03-10 00:15:29 UTC
yeah, terrible image, lackluster proof, and overly defensive remarks aside, i guess i forget the point of linking a highsec system in regards to a nullsec thing
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#895 - 2015-03-10 00:15:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Lena Lazair
Based on the goals stated, I'm struggling to figure out why this isn't a new-style deployable.

Give it reasonably high EHP/omni resists along the lines of an MTU. Give it a TINY sig rad to make it hard to bomb and slow for sniper fleets to lock w/o significant sebo. Make it 50 to 100m3 in cargo volume. Make it vulnerable to ECM (though omni only; eg omni strengths that must ALL be 0 before jammed) so that it pauses cycling while jammed. Make it impossible to rescoop until a cycle completes successfully (eg destruction or win, no ability to scoop and run to save the deployable just because it hasn't finished/is contested/paused).

EDIT: A few other mechanics tweaks from replies; possibly make the cycle pause when the deployable is taking ANY damage. Possibly allow the cycle to be paused by neuting as well as ECM. Probably limit it so that a single pilot can only deploy ONE of these at a time, and must wait until her deployable is destroyed or re-scooped (after a completed/successful cycle) before able to deploy another one. Definitely generate KMs when these are destroyed, just like MTUs. Probably give them a maximum lifetime (2hrs or so) before they self-destruct.

Grid control? Check; virtually impossible to keep alive a deployable w/o grid control.

Troll-y? Not really... frigates can only carry a few without resupply. This allows legitimate use in fastfrigs/intys to contest abandoned sov, but makes it much tougher to troll entire regions (since they can't rescoop deployed units unless/until they cycle completely).

Occupancy? This makes it even easier for defenders to "prove" occupancy. Any ship that can control grid/apply DPS can destroy a troll deployable, without requiring a defensive e-link of their own. That said, the behavior that deadlocks control when more than one alliance's e-links are deployed should remain. Multiple can be deployed; only question is whether a single pilot should be able to deploy more than one at a time. EDIT: the fact you get a KM is also much better concrete proof that you actively defended sov vs. "I activated my defensive e-link until he ran away, I swear"

Defensible? With a good mix of EHP and sig, should be possible to tweak to a point where sniper/bomber attacks are not effective enough without grid control to pop it before it cycles successfully. Also, true null grid control against sniper/bomber is required (eg proper use of defensive bubbles).

EDIT: Among other things, this also really simplifies the timers, info about who is doing what, etc. The initial/warm-up cycle time is the time it takes to anchor the deployable. This would be the initial 2 or 5-minute timer. Once anchored, it sends out the alliance notification and immediately begins the 10 to 40 min long capture cycle, which can be very prominently displayed in space on the deployable's brackets, and makes it immediately clear to anyone with a decent overview what is doing the capturing (no need for magic ship special effects to figure out what is going on). Also allows defenders to intelligently pop the deployables that are furthest along in their capture cycle.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#896 - 2015-03-10 00:17:59 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
yeah, terrible image, lackluster proof, and overly defensive remarks aside, i guess i forget the point of linking a highsec system in regards to a nullsec thing

I guess it was to show you spouting even more BS when testing my knowledge of mechanics that work in ALL SPACE (not just highsec)?

I mean cmon, the well distributed .pdf all about grid-fu has a massive bee on the top of it and you didn't know?

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

Tycho VI
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#897 - 2015-03-10 00:19:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Tycho VI
Tycho VI wrote:
But I mean....You start using the link from a position, you can not deviate more then 90 degrees or a certain verible from the start position or the link breaks....would this alleviate any of the trolling concerns at all? Considering people are worried about users trolling by orbiting at 100+km with a small sig moving at 7km a sec... Not just one guy, but like a fleet of 40+ inty or something in orbit doing a troll circle....If they had to stay within 90 degrees of the start position relative to the structure(you may be able to track them at some point if they make a mistake in their spiral with a couple long range defenders/trolling requires piloting skill etc).



Some quickly made images to illustrate this concept:

The actual angles could be different, this one assumes you pass 90 degrees from the start point in relation to the structure which would deactivate the link.

2 IMAGES:

http://i.imgur.com/2A90q5S.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Ndgfimz.jpg

There would be a plane you can not pass or the link will be broken.
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#898 - 2015-03-10 00:19:48 UTC
Tycho VI wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
Tycho VI wrote:
You gotta use some kind of imagination here....Has anyone considered how ridiculous that shooting a laser from a moving ship at a Station, TCU, SBU could somehow force all the workers inside the structure to be forced to end up changing to their side, like a mind control beam really?


I would've actually thought that (especially since PGL indicated the Entosis Link began life as an application of the Hacking Modules) it was more indicative of the sovereignty structures being fully automated, rather than crewed.


Sov structures have these little windows on them that are lit up, I've always assumed lore wise that there are some crew members manning them...especially stations, and I-Hubs


After all of the problems Microsoft has caused, you're relying on windows? Smile
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#899 - 2015-03-10 00:20:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Lena Lazair wrote:
Based on the goals stated, I'm struggling to figure out why this isn't a new-style deployable.

Give it reasonably high EHP/omni resists along the lines of an MTU. Give it a TINY sig rad to make it hard to bomb and slow for sniper fleets to lock w/o significant sebo. Make it 50 to 100m3 in size. Make it vulnerable to ECM (though omni only; eg omni strengths that must ALL be 0 before jammed) so that it pauses cycling while jammed. Make it impossible to rescoop until a cycle completes successfully (eg destruction or win, no scoop and run).

Grid control? Check; virtually impossible to keep alive a deployable w/o grid control.

Troll-y? Not really... frigates can only carry a few without resupply. This allows legitimate use in fastfrigs/intys to contest abandoned sov, but makes it much tougher to troll entire regions (since they can't rescoop deployed units unless/until they cycle completely).

Occupancy? This makes it even easier for defenders to "prove" occupancy. Any ship that can control grid/apply DPS can destroy a troll deployable, without requiring a defensive e-link of their own. That said, the behavior that deadlocks control when more than one alliance's e-links are deployed should remain. Multiple can be deployed; only question is whether a single pilot should be able to deploy more than one at a time.

Defensible? With a good mix of EHP and sig, should be possible to tweak to a point where sniper/bomber attacks are not effective enough without grid control to pop it before it cycles successfully. Also, true null grid control against sniper/bomber is required (eg proper use of defensive bubbles).

An interesting idea...

Defenders must shoot the structure deployable. This is of course different from the SBU, as it has to be dealt with immediately (it will reinforce the thing, unlike SBU where the attackers must come back and still structure grind).

Too bad it will probably be buried, but a nice suggestion


EDIT: I'm serious, it is actually an interesting idea. Definitely better than the drop SBU -> Wait 3 hours -> Structure shoot thing.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#900 - 2015-03-10 00:23:19 UTC
Lena Lazair wrote:
Based on the goals stated, I'm struggling to figure out why this isn't a new-style deployable.

Because part of the idea, at least in my read of things, is to have more people active and vulnerable in space. While a Trollceptor could conceivably only carry a few, a cloaky T3 could carry far more - and a Blockade Runner could carry dozens and dozens. This would allow a single pilot to carpet bomb the hell out of a constellation or region, while not putting himself at any risk at all - there would be no requirement for him to even be uncloaked for his multitude of sov deployables to do their dastardly work. In addition, it would take an appreciable amount of time for a defender to kill them all.

The disparity in effort would be even more Trolltastic than the fabled unkillable uncounterable Trollceptors.

If it doesn't require you to be on grid, active, and unable to escape grid without losing your progress... it doesn't fit the bill.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."