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[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance

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Tycho VI
Horde Armada
Pandemic Horde
#861 - 2015-03-09 23:32:06 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Pooptasticize wrote:
The troll-ceptor for DEFENSE is much more onerous than the one for offense.

You're a small corp. You bring 20 dudes into a system to take a station. You start sov-lasering the station. They bring out a single intercepter you will never be able to catch that also activates it's SOV laser.

Two hours later you go home empty handed, even though you controlled the grid.

As long as you trolled the guys holding the sov, isn't it success?

I begin to wonder about the plans people are making to take our sov. Hopefully they have a plan to deal with ceptors like the ones they will use.



trolled like 3 guys watching the intel channel
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#862 - 2015-03-09 23:33:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Tycho VI wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Pooptasticize wrote:
The troll-ceptor for DEFENSE is much more onerous than the one for offense.

You're a small corp. You bring 20 dudes into a system to take a station. You start sov-lasering the station. They bring out a single intercepter you will never be able to catch that also activates it's SOV laser.

Two hours later you go home empty handed, even though you controlled the grid.

As long as you trolled the guys holding the sov, isn't it success?

I begin to wonder about the plans people are making to take our sov. Hopefully they have a plan to deal with ceptors like the ones they will use.

trolled like 3 guys watching the intel channel

That's not good then, how will moa poke us until we give up all our sov out of frustration.

Wasn't the point to make it so small groups could harass bigger groups out of their space?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Dras Malar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#863 - 2015-03-09 23:35:29 UTC
I really do not understand the point of the Entosis module. Why should sov be decided by a new gimmicky high slot module? If you want effective military control to decide sov battles, why not just leave it up to structure hitpoints and remove all the convoluted boring elements that are in sov right now? If you have effective military control, you shoot the thing, then put up your own thing. If you don't, you lose the battle and the other guy blows up your ship.

Why do you want to turn nullsec into some ridiculous whack-a-mole game crossed with some multi-system King of the Hill nonsense? Do you not want anyone to live in nullsec?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#864 - 2015-03-09 23:36:30 UTC
KIller Wabbit wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
also fyi the timer can only be 40 minutes if the system has an industrial index of 5

there are no regions in the game with an average industrial index above one eidence


That is the choice of the holders. Skewed focus can yield sub-optimum conditions.



Some systems literally cannot gain military index V and next to no system have any mining index due to it simply not being worth mining. Most systems also dont have great industry because they either dont have an outpost or they dont have any need for that much industry in a back end system.
Acuma
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#865 - 2015-03-09 23:38:09 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Acuma wrote:
in an UNUSED system lol

deklein is the most-used 0.0 region in the game

Then you have nothing to worry about from a lone "trollceptor."
Aurumfault Shiptoaster
Blood Oath Foundation
#866 - 2015-03-09 23:39:18 UTC
KIller Wabbit wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
also fyi the timer can only be 40 minutes if the system has an industrial index of 5

there are no regions in the game with an average industrial index above one except providence


That is the choice of the holders. Skewed focus can yield sub-optimum conditions.



A choice driven by the industrial index taking far more pilot-hours to increase and requiring an activity that few people find satisfying and offers lower rewards.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#867 - 2015-03-09 23:39:23 UTC
Dras Malar wrote:
I really do not understand the point of the Entosis module. Why should sov be decided by a new gimmicky high slot module? If you want effective military control to decide sov battles, why not just leave it up to structure hitpoints and remove all the convoluted boring elements that are in sov right now? If you have effective military control, you shoot the thing, then put up your own thing. If you don't, you lose the battle and the other guy blows up your ship.

Why do you want to turn nullsec into some ridiculous whack-a-mole game crossed with some multi-system King of the Hill nonsense? Do you not want anyone to live in nullsec?

Probably because "ceptor with laser" is easier than "you have to fight a blob of evil blobbers"

Can't shake up null if the likes of moa can't send single ceptors out. As it is, trying to harass sov right now still takes a lot of structure shooters even if you're out in nadot land... it's nearly impossible in Deklein now.

At least you can get some interceptors in.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Tycho VI
Horde Armada
Pandemic Horde
#868 - 2015-03-09 23:39:53 UTC
What if it was made so that when using the Entosis, your ship can not move at all?
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#869 - 2015-03-09 23:40:35 UTC
Acuma wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Acuma wrote:
in an UNUSED system lol

deklein is the most-used 0.0 region in the game

Then you have nothing to worry about from a lone "trollceptor."

sure we do

if we don't send disproportionately increasing numbers of dudes to counter him, he generates final timers for large numbers of sov structures

like i said before, the fact that we are capable of doing this is immaterial to how awful it is when there is no chance to kill the interceptor
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#870 - 2015-03-09 23:40:59 UTC
Acuma wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Acuma wrote:
in an UNUSED system lol

deklein is the most-used 0.0 region in the game

Then you have nothing to worry about from a lone "trollceptor."

Heh heh... then is all our worrying actually just intended to entice a response or are we fearing for our 0.0 dream

I have no idea myself

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#871 - 2015-03-09 23:44:55 UTC
Tycho VI wrote:
What if it was made so that when using the Entosis, your ship can not move at all?


Blap dreads.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#872 - 2015-03-09 23:46:00 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Tycho VI wrote:
What if it was made so that when using the Entosis, your ship can not move at all?

Blap dreads.

If someone has a blap dread on field, clearly the one it is shooting does not have "effective military control of the grid" since.. well there's a hostile dread.

So it's fine?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Tycho VI
Horde Armada
Pandemic Horde
#873 - 2015-03-09 23:48:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Tycho VI
You gotta use some kind of imagination here....Has anyone considered how ridiculous that shooting a laser from a moving ship at a Station, TCU, SBU could somehow force all the workers inside the structure to be forced to end up changing to their side, like a mind control beam really?



Lean towards the mechanic that the Entosis is actually a retractable bridge rather then a laser that serves the purpose of moving troops from said ship to said structure for active combat (the first timer), to reinforcing their forces for victory (second timer) etc.... SOMETHING LIKE THAT FOR LORE AND FUTURE UPDATES! Use a laser as the graphic placeholder forever if you have to.

You cant fly around in orbit of a structure without ripping this bridge apart and putting all the troops in a zero gravity environment causing death. Or breaking the laser's concentration...etc



Suggestion:

You could implement some completely new code so that the Entosis mod's link will be broken once the user's angle becomes greater then a specific number (you can still move around what you are using it on, but you cant go from bottom to top of the structure, or orbit it 360 degrees around without breaking the link)

shouldn't be too hard to create angular variables and limits since it is all a grid anyway and the structure serves as a center point
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#874 - 2015-03-09 23:49:52 UTC
Tycho VI wrote:
You gotta use some kind of imagination here....Has anyone considered how ridiculous that shooting a laser from a moving ship at a Station, TCU, SBU could somehow force all the workers inside the structure to be forced to end up changing to their side, like a mind control beam really?



Lean towards the mechanic that the Entosis is actually a retractable bridge rather then a laser that serves the purpose of moving troops from said ship to said structure for active combat (the first timer), to reinforcing their forces for victory (second timer) etc.... SOMETHING LIKE THAT FOR LORE AND FUTURE UPDATES! Use a laser as the graphic placeholder forever if you have to.

You cant fly around in orbit of a structure without ripping this bridge apart and putting all the troops in a zero gravity environment causing death. Or breaking the laser's concentration...etc



Suggestion:

You could implement some completely new code so that the Entosis mod's link will be broken once the user's angle becomes greater then a specific number (you can still move around what you are using it on, but you cant go from bottom to top of the structure, or orbit it 360 degrees around without breaking the link)

I would have thought it was like a reverse mining laser.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Acuma
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#875 - 2015-03-09 23:51:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Acuma
Tycho VI wrote:



Lean towards the mechanic that the Entosis is actually a retractable bridge rather then a laser that serves the purpose of moving troops from said ship to said structure for active combat (the first timer), to reinforcing their forces for victory (second timer) etc.... SOMETHING LIKE THAT FOR LORE AND FUTURE UPDATES! Use a laser as the graphic placeholder forever if you have to.



I actually like the idea of some kind of boarding ship. Warp in to 0, launch troops on the structure, or something like that. This entosis module is unrealistic.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#876 - 2015-03-09 23:52:14 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Why is nobody bringing up caps as a viable composition?
How about Stealth Bombers?

Caps aren't an issue so much for Entosis links. They can't receive reps while the link is active, so have to rely on local reps. They'd have to be on field for about 30 minutes to complete an RF cycle - likely quite a bit more, given CCP's already mentioned they're upping the cycle time / progress for caps - which gives a defender more than enough time to scramble stuff to murderfy it in proper fashion. A few neut Geddons and a long point would be more than enough to see off a solo capital.

Bringing larger fleets could potentially be an issue, but even then they're going to take a LOT longer to RF something than a blob of Supercarriers currently can. If they're deployed to guard subcap Entosis boats, those will simply be blapped off the field by any competent defender - they can't receive reps, after all. Sure, you could potentially see them supporting Marauders, but even then those can only get about 8-10k DPS local tank, and would be really vulnerable to Focused Void Bombs and the like... at which point they get blapped off the field, again.

And of course a defender can bring fast, small, hard to hit Trollceptors to delay capture indefinitely, unless the cap fleet brings a subcap support fleet. Which could then be murdered to death by savvy defenders, followed by more Trollceptoring.

As far as Stealth Bombers go - or any CovOps capable ship, for that matter - they'd be powerful, sure. But they don't present the same problem of high speed evasion that a Trollceptor does, nor are they bubble immune. So long as they can't instantly cloak while the Entosis link is active, they're just as vulnerable to interception as anything else. Granted, a cloaky T3 or cloaky Stratios can be difficult to deal with solo, but not so difficult to pin down long enough to summon help. Not to mention being a much shinier kill.

In all, I feel that low fitting requirements mean that Sov Harassment / Defense is open to all ship classes and all pilot experience levels - right in line with the design goals. They do reward more mobile fleets, as well as fleets well rounded enough to take on varied counter fleets.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Tycho VI
Horde Armada
Pandemic Horde
#877 - 2015-03-09 23:52:31 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Tycho VI wrote:
You gotta use some kind of imagination here....Has anyone considered how ridiculous that shooting a laser from a moving ship at a Station, TCU, SBU could somehow force all the workers inside the structure to be forced to end up changing to their side, like a mind control beam really?



Lean towards the mechanic that the Entosis is actually a retractable bridge rather then a laser that serves the purpose of moving troops from said ship to said structure for active combat (the first timer), to reinforcing their forces for victory (second timer) etc.... SOMETHING LIKE THAT FOR LORE AND FUTURE UPDATES! Use a laser as the graphic placeholder forever if you have to.

You cant fly around in orbit of a structure without ripping this bridge apart and putting all the troops in a zero gravity environment causing death. Or breaking the laser's concentration...etc



Suggestion:

You could implement some completely new code so that the Entosis mod's link will be broken once the user's angle becomes greater then a specific number (you can still move around what you are using it on, but you cant go from bottom to top of the structure, or orbit it 360 degrees around without breaking the link)

I would have thought it was like a reverse mining laser.


Well, IF you start the link from the twelve o'clock region of the structure. You can not fly down to the 3 o'clock, 6 o'clock, 12 o'clock regions or the link breaks. that kind of code is possible with this grid system in eve...
Tycho VI
Horde Armada
Pandemic Horde
#878 - 2015-03-09 23:53:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tycho VI
Tycho VI wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Tycho VI wrote:
You gotta use some kind of imagination here....Has anyone considered how ridiculous that shooting a laser from a moving ship at a Station, TCU, SBU could somehow force all the workers inside the structure to be forced to end up changing to their side, like a mind control beam really?



Lean towards the mechanic that the Entosis is actually a retractable bridge rather then a laser that serves the purpose of moving troops from said ship to said structure for active combat (the first timer), to reinforcing their forces for victory (second timer) etc.... SOMETHING LIKE THAT FOR LORE AND FUTURE UPDATES! Use a laser as the graphic placeholder forever if you have to.

You cant fly around in orbit of a structure without ripping this bridge apart and putting all the troops in a zero gravity environment causing death. Or breaking the laser's concentration...etc



Suggestion:

You could implement some completely new code so that the Entosis mod's link will be broken once the user's angle becomes greater then a specific number (you can still move around what you are using it on, but you cant go from bottom to top of the structure, or orbit it 360 degrees around without breaking the link)

I would have thought it was like a reverse mining laser.


Well, IF you start the link from the twelve o'clock region of the structure. You can not fly down to the 3 o'clock, 6 o'clock, 9 o'clock regions or the link breaks. that kind of code is possible with this grid system in eve... You have to stay in a position relative to where you started the link to.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#879 - 2015-03-09 23:55:04 UTC
Tycho VI wrote:
You gotta use some kind of imagination here....Has anyone considered how ridiculous that shooting a laser from a moving ship at a Station, TCU, SBU could somehow force all the workers inside the structure to be forced to end up changing to their side, like a mind control beam really?


I would've actually thought that (especially since PGL indicated the Entosis Link began life as an application of the Hacking Modules) it was more indicative of the sovereignty structures being fully automated, rather than crewed.
Tycho VI
Horde Armada
Pandemic Horde
#880 - 2015-03-09 23:57:48 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Tycho VI wrote:
You gotta use some kind of imagination here....Has anyone considered how ridiculous that shooting a laser from a moving ship at a Station, TCU, SBU could somehow force all the workers inside the structure to be forced to end up changing to their side, like a mind control beam really?


I would've actually thought that (especially since PGL indicated the Entosis Link began life as an application of the Hacking Modules) it was more indicative of the sovereignty structures being fully automated, rather than crewed.


Sov structures have these little windows on them that are lit up, I've always assumed lore wise that there are some crew members manning them...especially stations, and I-Hubs