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[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance

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M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#841 - 2015-03-09 23:03:38 UTC
Alp Khan wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

truly your eft warrioring has swept my legs out from under me

this increasingly shorter procession of effective ranges is bound to slay me eventually

i am continually wetting my pants in trepidation for your next post, most likely a blaster brutix


You've yet to show why a sniper corm won't kill an Inty, thus you have no legs to stand on. All of your posts lack substance, so either you're trolling or intentionally spamming up the thread to hide the fact that the inties are in fact counterable.

It' basic PVP, if someone is too far away, load longer range ammo. If someone is closer, load higher damage/better tracking. So tell me, how are these mythical trollceptors going to take over all of null if a 15m cormorant can kill them or drive them off?


I hope you aren't pretending to be ignorant. Because this has been said many times before. It's not just that those things are almost impossible to catch and destroy in practice (your cormorant hypothesis is revealing of your continued ignorance of reality) it's also that they are cheap, easy to get into and does not really translate into a commitment into contesting sovereignty. It isn't that those won't end up dead in some cases, it's that those ships dying does not matter. They are dirt cheap. They are easy to obtain and sic upon a whole region. This is the problem.

If you want to be able to contest, you should be committing in the real sense.


100m is dirt cheap? Then how will making them a battlecruiser only mod, or something else like that as other have suggested, change anything?

They'd go from 100m to 150m per ship, that's not significant.

What would you do to prevent entosis link ships from being "cheap" and being able to drop on the whole region? I'm listening.

Also, accusing someone of ignorance is unbecoming. It does nothing to reinforce your ideas.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#842 - 2015-03-09 23:04:10 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


As much as possible, the Entosis Link capture progress should reflect which group has effective military control of the grid.
...
The restrictions and penalties on the Entosis Link should be as simple and understandable as possible.
...
All in all, I want to make it very clear that we are going to make adjustments to the Entosis Link in order to get the best possible gameplay and to match these goals as well as possible.

We would like this thread to become a place of discussion around the Entosis Link mechanics, the ships that you expect to use them on, and the tactics you foresee becoming popular. What issues do you foresee popping up? How do you think these goals should be adjusted or refocused? Which of the many module balance dials do you think would be the most intuitive?

Please keep discussion calm and reasonable. Remember that even though we're not making knee-jerk reactions, we are definitely listening and working to get this balance right.

Thanks
-Fozzie


Fozzie for the love of god you need to define the mechanics of the Entosis Link more clearly so that we have a starting ground for how we should approach the discussion of module balance!

For example we dont even know if the modules warp prevention mechanic is retained upon a broken lock or not. This simple facet of the mechanic is a fundamental aspect of its balance that you've yet to define and gives us no real area to start a true and proper discussion on this area of the module balance.

I'd say more than half of this discussion is based on pure conjecture and total assumptions purely down to your lack of will or desire to nail down specifics.

So for gods sake grow some balls and put some specifics on the table so we can better critique and offer accurate descriptions of potential issues, rather than just some complete sociopathic "lets watch the mouthbreathers fight over the candy" style freak show that's currently going on.

Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#843 - 2015-03-09 23:07:12 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
For the love of god do not allow us such a tool because we will abuse it and make life for everyone else miserable.

I think if one were to take only one thing from this discussion, this would be it.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#844 - 2015-03-09 23:07:26 UTC
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


As much as possible, the Entosis Link capture progress should reflect which group has effective military control of the grid.
...
The restrictions and penalties on the Entosis Link should be as simple and understandable as possible.
...
All in all, I want to make it very clear that we are going to make adjustments to the Entosis Link in order to get the best possible gameplay and to match these goals as well as possible.

We would like this thread to become a place of discussion around the Entosis Link mechanics, the ships that you expect to use them on, and the tactics you foresee becoming popular. What issues do you foresee popping up? How do you think these goals should be adjusted or refocused? Which of the many module balance dials do you think would be the most intuitive?

Please keep discussion calm and reasonable. Remember that even though we're not making knee-jerk reactions, we are definitely listening and working to get this balance right.

Thanks
-Fozzie


Fozzie for the love of god you need to define the mechanics of the Entosis Link more clearly so that we have a starting ground for how we should approach the discussion of module balance!

For example we dont even know if the modules warp prevention mechanic is retained upon a broken lock or not. This simple facet of the mechanic is a fundamental aspect of its balance that you've yet to define and gives us no real area to start a true and proper discussion on this area of the module balance.

I'd say more than half of this discussion is based on pure conjecture and total assumptions purely down to your lack of will or desire to nail down specifics.

So for gods sake grow some balls and put some specifics on the table so we can better critique and offer accurate descriptions of potential issues, rather than just some complete sociopathic "lets watch the mouthbreathers fight over the candy" style freak show that's currently going on.


a ceptor is capable of denying you "effective military control of the grid" so where's the problem?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Tycho VI
Horde Armada
Pandemic Horde
#845 - 2015-03-09 23:12:05 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
For the love of god do not allow us such a tool because we will abuse it and make life for everyone else miserable.

I think if one were to take only one thing from this discussion, this would be it.
Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#846 - 2015-03-09 23:14:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Alp Khan
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Alp Khan wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

truly your eft warrioring has swept my legs out from under me

this increasingly shorter procession of effective ranges is bound to slay me eventually

i am continually wetting my pants in trepidation for your next post, most likely a blaster brutix


You've yet to show why a sniper corm won't kill an Inty, thus you have no legs to stand on. All of your posts lack substance, so either you're trolling or intentionally spamming up the thread to hide the fact that the inties are in fact counterable.

It' basic PVP, if someone is too far away, load longer range ammo. If someone is closer, load higher damage/better tracking. So tell me, how are these mythical trollceptors going to take over all of null if a 15m cormorant can kill them or drive them off?


I hope you aren't pretending to be ignorant. Because this has been said many times before. It's not just that those things are almost impossible to catch and destroy in practice (your cormorant hypothesis is revealing of your continued ignorance of reality) it's also that they are cheap, easy to get into and does not really translate into a commitment into contesting sovereignty. It isn't that those won't end up dead in some cases, it's that those ships dying does not matter. They are dirt cheap. They are easy to obtain and sic upon a whole region. This is the problem.

If you want to be able to contest, you should be committing in the real sense.


100m is dirt cheap? Then how will making them a battlecruiser only mod, or something else like that as other have suggested, change anything?

They'd go from 100m to 150m per ship, that's not significant.

What would you do to prevent entosis link ships from being "cheap" and being able to drop on the whole region? I'm listening.

Also, accusing someone of ignorance is unbecoming. It does nothing to reinforce your ideas.


It's not just the cost, cost is only one of the factors. Besides, yes, 100M is cheap. I'd like to recommend you to look at typical sovereign null fleet compositions that are current, you won't see many 100M ships there.

It's speed+mobility+low cost and high availability+evasiveness and almost constant invincibility for small, agile hulls.

Basically, an interceptor becomes the hull of choice with following highlights

a) Evade any gate camp with sub 2.0s align time
b) Evade any bubble
c) Easy to train for and easy to acquire, extremely low cost
d) Can be easily acquired in massive quantities and can be sent to troll entire regions in very little time
d) Can disengage safely from almost all possible types of on-grid encounters through overwhelming speed, even during entosis module phase

And people are pushing for a hull like this to be able to contest sovereignty and space assets?

As General McAullife once said, "Nuts!"
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#847 - 2015-03-09 23:16:04 UTC
Alp Khan wrote:
a) Evade any gate camp with sub 2.0s align time
b) Evade any bubble
c) Easy to train for and easy to acquire, extremely low cost
d) Can be easily acquired in massive quantities and can be sent to troll entire regions in very little time
d) Can disengage safely from almost all possible types of on-grid encounters through overwhelming speed, even during entosis module phase

And people are pushing for a hull like this to be able to contest sovereignty?

As General McAullife once said, "Nuts!"


e) can easily be countered by one person in a frigate that can be flown from day 1.

Doesn't even need frigate V.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#848 - 2015-03-09 23:17:00 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Alp Khan wrote:
a) Evade any gate camp with sub 2.0s align time
b) Evade any bubble
c) Easy to train for and easy to acquire, extremely low cost
d) Can be easily acquired in massive quantities and can be sent to troll entire regions in very little time
d) Can disengage safely from almost all possible types of on-grid encounters through overwhelming speed, even during entosis module phase

And people are pushing for a hull like this to be able to contest sovereignty?

As General McAullife once said, "Nuts!"


e) can easily be countered by one person in a frigate that can be flown from day 1.

Doesn't even need frigate V.


If by "countered" you mean "both sit on the button until one guy gets bored".

Fozzie's very first objective, broken.

Frigates must not have access to this module.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#849 - 2015-03-09 23:18:22 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Alp Khan wrote:
a) Evade any gate camp with sub 2.0s align time
b) Evade any bubble
c) Easy to train for and easy to acquire, extremely low cost
d) Can be easily acquired in massive quantities and can be sent to troll entire regions in very little time
d) Can disengage safely from almost all possible types of on-grid encounters through overwhelming speed, even during entosis module phase

And people are pushing for a hull like this to be able to contest sovereignty?

As General McAullife once said, "Nuts!"


e) can easily be countered by one person in a frigate that can be flown from day 1.

Doesn't even need frigate V.


If by "countered" you mean "both sit on the button until one guy gets bored".

Fozzie's very first objective, broken.

Frigates must not have access to this module.

Forcing a stalemate means the attacker has failed in their objective. Sounds like a counter to me. Do you like chess?

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#850 - 2015-03-09 23:18:22 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
also fyi the timer can only be 40 minutes if the system has an industrial index of 5

there are no regions in the game with an average industrial index above one except providence


That is the choice of the holders. Skewed focus can yield sub-optimum conditions.
Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#851 - 2015-03-09 23:18:43 UTC
If there's a "Sov Mechanics" forum at FanFest it's going to be standing room only...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#852 - 2015-03-09 23:20:22 UTC
KIller Wabbit wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
also fyi the timer can only be 40 minutes if the system has an industrial index of 5

there are no regions in the game with an average industrial index above one except providence


That is the choice of the holders. Skewed focus can yield sub-optimum conditions.


so you would say that our focus is "not skewed" when sov havers force their line members to excavate massive piles of ore

are you aware how much mining need occur before that particular index goes up
Lienzo
Amanuensis
#853 - 2015-03-09 23:21:10 UTC
It will be interesting to see what the change of direction will be if half the stations are freeports by December.
Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#854 - 2015-03-09 23:22:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Alp Khan
CCP Fozzie wrote:


As much as possible, the Entosis Link capture progress should reflect which group has effective military control of the grid.
...


And how would you define effective military control, Fozzie?

It seems to me that you are just throwing around buzzwords to be able to curtail massively negative player reaction against a half-baked proposal that we would have hoped to carry substance, detail, consistency and an understanding of life and realities of sovereign null after many years of waiting.

For the sake of this game, I'm hoping to be proven wrong here. But remembering how you skirted around the statistics to cover your back in the 'Where we stand' devblog, just to be able to claim some sort of partial success, I'm afraid that I will end up being disappointed.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#855 - 2015-03-09 23:23:15 UTC
Lienzo wrote:
It will be interesting to see what the change of direction will be if half the stations are freeports by December.

Unlikely, as if anything random people will poke it to grab a station despite not having any intention to use, hold or defend it.

In short, probably it will look like a great success with tons of little "sovtroll" sovholders who don't use the sov or anything or derive much value out of it at all.

Op success!

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Pooptasticize
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#856 - 2015-03-09 23:25:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Pooptasticize
The troll-ceptor for DEFENSE is much more onerous than the one for offense.

You're a small corp. You bring 20 dudes into a system to take a station. You start sov-lasering the station. They bring out a single intercepter you will never be able to catch that also activates it's SOV laser.

Two hours later you go home empty handed, even though you controlled the grid.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#857 - 2015-03-09 23:26:32 UTC
Acuma wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Acuma wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Acuma wrote:
Seems mostly that only the goonies are afraid of trollceptors.......even with their "superior numbers" and their "we'll burn null sec to the ground if this is allowed." Wonder why that is? Too much space? To many renters? Afraid of spread out fights instead of blobs? All it takes is a tanked out maller alt sitting on a structure......ya'll don't have alts?


So were you also one of the people that defended tech moons when we said they were a terrible idea?


So you like arguing with strawmen?


Looks to me like the only rean most are supporting trollcepters is because goons are against them.

Fact is that trollcepters will be the single most annoying thing to ever happen to sov space even more so than the POS grind we first had. Not only will you have to contend with the biggest abusers of game mechanics in EVE but also everyone else in null, all the lowsec corps, WH powers and a good number of highsec to boot. There is going to be thousands of the ******* things everywhere and thats before we get into the waking nightmare that would be the CFC on a war footing.

Trollcepters dont get people fights, they only serve to sap the life from the game. Very few systems will even have 20 min timers let alone 40. For the love of god do not allow us such a tool because we will abuse it and make life for everyone else miserable.
Sounds to me like you'll have to only be in space you can defend during your primetime.....and your timer speculation is just that, speculation. Even at the lowest timer, it will waste 10 minutes of your time for 3-4 of the defender.....in an UNUSED system lol. Sounds like you plan on being bored out your mind instead of bringing a force to actually trigger the RF.


If you had paid attention at any point in the last 5 years you would know that we cannot get bored. You should also take the time tolook up the state of most sov out there as the vast bulk is a lot emptier than ours. 10 minutes give you next to no time to respond. Six months of having to deal with nothing but cepters that you cannot kill will drain the willpower of everyone but the largest organisations. Are you going to attend 4 hour long defence ops that get you nothing? How about year after year of nothing but uncatchable cepters?

Its a terrible thing that needs to die before it ever gets started.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#858 - 2015-03-09 23:28:14 UTC
Pooptasticize wrote:
The troll-ceptor for DEFENSE is much more onerous than the one for offense.

You're a small corp. You bring 20 dudes into a system to take a station. You start sov-lasering the station. They bring out a single intercepter you will never be able to catch that also activates it's SOV laser.

Two hours later you go home empty handed, even though you controlled the grid.

As long as you trolled the guys holding the sov, isn't it success?

I begin to wonder about the plans people are making to take our sov. Hopefully they have a plan to deal with ceptors like the ones they will use.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#859 - 2015-03-09 23:30:25 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Pooptasticize wrote:
The troll-ceptor for DEFENSE is much more onerous than the one for offense.

You're a small corp. You bring 20 dudes into a system to take a station. You start sov-lasering the station. They bring out a single intercepter you will never be able to catch that also activates it's SOV laser.

Two hours later you go home empty handed, even though you controlled the grid.

As long as you trolled the guys holding the sov, isn't it success?

I begin to wonder about the plans people are making to take our sov. Hopefully they have a plan to deal with ceptors like the ones they will use.

Mobile depot and 20 sensor damps? Even unbonused it'll do all thats needed to make the ceptor do something silly before it can complete its first cycle

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#860 - 2015-03-09 23:31:10 UTC
I think we need to move our mindset to a post-sov world, where you have to extract what you can get with only a bare minimum of sov (otherwise you will pay very high costs in trolling, no matter what)

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?