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[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance

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God's Apples
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#801 - 2015-03-09 22:22:22 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
God's Apples wrote:
I really don't see how inties are a problem. One info linked maulus/keres/celestis prevents at least 3 ships from locking anywhere past linked FN web huginn/rapier web range. Even if the inty or t3 dessy or whatever had 250km lock range, a single bonused info linked damp brings you down 66.6%, or 83.25km lock range. Moreover, because the entosis timer is reset when you lose lock, you just have to cycle damps between as many ships as you can lock to repeatedly restart their timers.

Here is an example fit:

[Celestis, Entosis Counter]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
True Sansha Energized Explosive Membrane
Damage Control II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I, Targeting Range Dampening Script
Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I, Targeting Range Dampening Script
Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I, Targeting Range Dampening Script
Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I, Targeting Range Dampening Script

Auto Targeting System I
Auto Targeting System I
125mm Gatling AutoCannon I, EMP S

Medium Inverted Signal Field Projector I
Medium Anti-Thermic Pump I
Medium Anti-Kinetic Pump I



With 1 resebo and infolinks it can lock 12 targets at up to 242km. If you truly have control over the battlefield, then a handful of damp ships can fend off a horde of inties. Your lack of critical thinking skills are not justifiable cause to complain about a mechanic.

disengage and move to next target

with a healthy lawl over using faction hardeners on a celestis

also that 1600mm plate is sure gonna help you catching up to an interceptor


Yes because you're trying to catch inties with a ******* celestis...

You really are a moron. The faction hard costs next to nothing. The point is that there are going to be 5 of these beacons in a region. 1 celestis counters 12 inties. It's not hard to do the math to realize that you only need 40 - 50 if that many people to defend against 250 - 400 inties.

Think about it. To defend against 50 inties you need 3 celestises, a huginn, a lach, 3 guardians, and a couple long range dps (protei, legions, zealots, ishtars, etc). Remember that with the exception of the guardians, all of those ships can fit entosis links of their own (the 125 AC is just a placeholder on my celestis fit). There, you just countered a 50 man inty blob with 10 - 12 dudes.

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
Acuma
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#802 - 2015-03-09 22:22:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Acuma
Seems mostly that only the goonies are afraid of trollceptors.......even with their "superior numbers" and their "we'll burn null sec to the ground if this is allowed." Wonder why that is? Too much space? To many renters? Afraid of spread out fights instead of blobs? All it takes is a tanked out maller alt sitting on a structure......ya'll don't have alts?
Yroc Jannseen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#803 - 2015-03-09 22:23:57 UTC
Acuma wrote:
Seems mostly that only the goonies are afraid of trollceptors.......even with their "superior numbers" and their "we'll burn null sec to the ground if this is allowed." Wonder why that is? Too much space? To many renters? Afraid of spread out fights instead of blobs?


You confuse fear with telling you exactly what is going to happen to everyone else.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#804 - 2015-03-09 22:24:41 UTC
Theorycrafting is of little help here IMO, put that thing on SiSi and we can experiment ...

I'm my own NPC alt.
Acuma
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#805 - 2015-03-09 22:25:34 UTC
Yroc Jannseen wrote:
Acuma wrote:
Seems mostly that only the goonies are afraid of trollceptors.......even with their "superior numbers" and their "we'll burn null sec to the ground if this is allowed." Wonder why that is? Too much space? To many renters? Afraid of spread out fights instead of blobs?


You confuse fear with telling you exactly what is going to happen to everyone else.
Nah, a lone ceptor is worthless. To take sovereignty, you'll have to bring more. That includes destroying ihubs. This is much ado about nothing, probably cause ya'll don't want to defend empty systems.
Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#806 - 2015-03-09 22:26:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Alp Khan
MASSADEATH wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
MASSADEATH wrote:
come on a corm sniping fleet :) and it will cure your doubts

ah yes the cormorant with its staggering 80-100km range

Combat probes will land it in engagement range every time. 100km is plenty when you land within 50-70km of your target.

combat probes show up on dscan

the interceptor gets to disengage before you even start aligning for warp in your slow ass destroyers




DO YOU GUYS EVEN PVP?

are you telling me you are incapable of killing ceptors?

you just alpha them off the grid.... lock target.... POP..... ceptor gone....

heck you even know the max range of where they have to be around a given structure...


If you consider exclusively dropping on AFK ratting ships in stealth bombers, or flying around in interceptors that CANNOT be tracked by guns and can easily burn out of effective missile ranges, no. We don't at all. Nobody does, because it's only a few organizations that deceive themselves into believing that they are -truly- masters of ~elite PvP~.

I would, on the other hand, also love to hear what your definition of real gang engagements, or fleet battles are. Those require commitment and shooting at stuff that might shoot you back after all. Anyway, let's move on with the matter at hand.

Now, aside from your failed rhetoric, a proper interceptor will always be able to burn out of any weapon range that can hit it. Then he can simply do grid-fu and for all intents and purposes, be gone.

The reason you are deceptive and are deflecting with empty rhetoric and non-substantial claims like "TARGET.. SHOOT.. POP.. INTERCEPTOR GONE.." (which is not true, as anyone worth their salt knows it) you already realize the inherent low cost (on SP, on hull and module price) of an interceptor, and are counting on that. An interceptor is a cheap ship. You aren't losing anything serious, and you can easily chain lose them, or just throw tens or cheap, insta-warp entosis interceptors around a large region to create havoc.

What you want is exactly why cheap ships that are able to travel around by ignoring any gatecamp or defensive effort is broken;

You want to be able to contest without commitment.
You want to be able to contest without dedicating resources.
You want to talk the talk, but you don't really want to walk the walk.

I don't think that's something that is realistically going to happen (nor it should ever be) under any circumstance, sorry.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#807 - 2015-03-09 22:26:14 UTC
God's Apples wrote:

Think about it. To defend against 50 inties you need 3 celestises, a huginn, a lach, 3 guardians, and a couple long range dps (protei, legions, zealots, ishtars, etc). Remember that with the exception of the guardians, all of those ships can fit entosis links of their own (the 125 AC is just a placeholder on my celestis fit). There, you just countered a 50 man inty blob with 10 - 12 dudes.

how does this recon/sniper gang cover 50 objectives at once
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#808 - 2015-03-09 22:26:35 UTC
Acuma wrote:
Seems mostly that only the goonies are afraid of trollceptors.......even with their "superior numbers" and their "we'll burn null sec to the ground if this is allowed." Wonder why that is? Too much space? To many renters? Afraid of spread out fights instead of blobs? All it takes is a tanked out maller alt sitting on a structure......ya'll don't have alts?


So were you also one of the people that defended tech moons when we said they were a terrible idea?
Acuma
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#809 - 2015-03-09 22:27:58 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Acuma wrote:
Seems mostly that only the goonies are afraid of trollceptors.......even with their "superior numbers" and their "we'll burn null sec to the ground if this is allowed." Wonder why that is? Too much space? To many renters? Afraid of spread out fights instead of blobs? All it takes is a tanked out maller alt sitting on a structure......ya'll don't have alts?


So were you also one of the people that defended tech moons when we said they were a terrible idea?


So you like arguing with strawmen?
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#810 - 2015-03-09 22:28:21 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
God's Apples wrote:
I really don't see how inties are a problem. One info linked maulus/keres/celestis prevents at least 3 ships from locking anywhere past linked FN web huginn/rapier web range. Even if the inty or t3 dessy or whatever had 250km lock range, a single bonused info linked damp brings you down 66.6%, or 83.25km lock range. Moreover, because the entosis timer is reset when you lose lock, you just have to cycle damps between as many ships as you can lock to repeatedly restart their timers.

Here is an example fit:

[Celestis, Entosis Counter]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
True Sansha Energized Explosive Membrane
Damage Control II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I, Targeting Range Dampening Script
Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I, Targeting Range Dampening Script
Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I, Targeting Range Dampening Script
Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I, Targeting Range Dampening Script

Auto Targeting System I
Auto Targeting System I
125mm Gatling AutoCannon I, EMP S

Medium Inverted Signal Field Projector I
Medium Anti-Thermic Pump I
Medium Anti-Kinetic Pump I



With 1 resebo and infolinks it can lock 12 targets at up to 242km. If you truly have control over the battlefield, then a handful of damp ships can fend off a horde of inties. Your lack of critical thinking skills are not justifiable cause to complain about a mechanic.

disengage and move to next target

with a healthy lawl over using faction hardeners on a celestis

also that 1600mm plate is sure gonna help you catching up to an interceptor



The inty ran away? Defense successful. Whats the problem?

Also the faction explosive hardener is a few hundred thousand isk, maybe a few mill. They aren't pricey.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#811 - 2015-03-09 22:28:50 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
And the celestis isn't there to catch the interceptor, only to neutralize it. You don't have to destroy an opponent to inhibit them.

the best part is where everyone has given up on the dream of trying to kill the interceptor and are now just trying to damp it out

it's almost like everyone instinctively knows that interceptors are too difficult to kill in any normal pvp situation


I'm not a fan of interdiction nullification... on any ship.

That being said, inties have their weaknesses as well as strengths. They can be sniped and/or caught by insta-lock gate camps. They aren't easy to catch and kill, especially if they are warping around the system, but that doesn't mean they accomplish anything. I can bring in an inty and inhibit miners and ratters today, the main difference is that an inty pilot today is more limited in the trouble they can cause.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#812 - 2015-03-09 22:29:26 UTC
Acuma wrote:
Seems mostly that only the goonies are afraid of trollceptors.......

argumentum ad populum
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#813 - 2015-03-09 22:30:42 UTC
Yroc Jannseen wrote:
Acuma wrote:
Seems mostly that only the goonies are afraid of trollceptors.......even with their "superior numbers" and their "we'll burn null sec to the ground if this is allowed." Wonder why that is? Too much space? To many renters? Afraid of spread out fights instead of blobs?


You confuse fear with telling you exactly what is going to happen to everyone else.

Our 0.0 dream will be ended.

moa will take our sov and we will be forced into a new world of not having our sov anymore


i don't think anyone is even getting it, i feel so discouraged. especially after hearing moa was in it as mercs. i don't know who to trust anymore

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#814 - 2015-03-09 22:32:12 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
The inty ran away? Defense successful. Whats the problem?

the interceptor did not die and is hitting a new structure
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#815 - 2015-03-09 22:32:15 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:

https://i.imgur.com/dZoUBJK.jpg

45 DPS at 124km, your interceptor is dead in under a minute (55.5 seconds, yes I did the math)

It's also a fifth the cost. Your move.

please do not post fits that only kill the interceptor inside of a very short, narrow range where the interceptor would not be in any even remotely plausible pvp scenario

basically only post RLML fits, and even then i hope you have 200km+ range

"look at the graph it has a point this is where I can guarantee a ship to be at all times"


Reload with Iron and it'll deal 90 DPS from 20km to 100. That fit will kill interceptors, any range a Rapier can't web at.

i'm sure if you ask nicely the interceptor will sit inside this range for you while you wait for target lock to complete


https://i.imgur.com/lijxgt4.jpg

Oh look, I can hit at any range over 40km. If it's closer than 40km any Rapier could kill it without breaking a sweat.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Acuma
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#816 - 2015-03-09 22:32:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Acuma
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Acuma wrote:
Seems mostly that only the goonies are afraid of trollceptors.......

argumentum ad populum

Not really, since most of Eve isn't goonies. Do you wanna try to refute facts or just divert?

Promiscuous Female wrote:

the interceptor did not die and is hitting a new structure


And wasted 10-35 minutes doing so compared to the defenders 2-4 minutes. That'll repeat in the "new" structure unless it's undefended......
Tycho VI
Horde Armada
Pandemic Horde
#817 - 2015-03-09 22:33:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Tycho VI
Some people might find it fun....but honestly, having to attend 4 hour CTA where u gotta go out and deal with arty claw fleets, svipul fleets, exclusively where no real value is put on the table...all the time....otherwise your station assets get locked out...

meh might actually have more fun just staging out of lowsec and being the problem
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#818 - 2015-03-09 22:34:35 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:

https://i.imgur.com/dZoUBJK.jpg

45 DPS at 124km, your interceptor is dead in under a minute (55.5 seconds, yes I did the math)

It's also a fifth the cost. Your move.

please do not post fits that only kill the interceptor inside of a very short, narrow range where the interceptor would not be in any even remotely plausible pvp scenario

basically only post RLML fits, and even then i hope you have 200km+ range

"look at the graph it has a point this is where I can guarantee a ship to be at all times"


Reload with Iron and it'll deal 90 DPS from 20km to 100. That fit will kill interceptors, any range a Rapier can't web at.

i'm sure if you ask nicely the interceptor will sit inside this range for you while you wait for target lock to complete


https://i.imgur.com/lijxgt4.jpg

Oh look, I can hit at any range over 40km. If it's closer than 40km any Rapier could kill it without breaking a sweat.

i see that your tactic is now making the engagement range smaller and smaller when the interceptor is shrugging out at 120km
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#819 - 2015-03-09 22:35:23 UTC
Acuma wrote:

Not really, since most of Eve isn't goonies. Do you wanna try to refute facts or just divert?

that is not what argumentum ad populum means
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#820 - 2015-03-09 22:35:24 UTC
Acuma wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Acuma wrote:
Seems mostly that only the goonies are afraid of trollceptors.......

argumentum ad populum

Not really, since most of Eve isn't goonies. Do you wanna try to refute facts or just divert?

Promiscuous Female wrote:

the interceptor did not die and is hitting a new structure


And wasted 10-35 minutes doing so compared to the defenders 2-4 minutes. That'll repeat in the "new" structure unless it's undefended......


They have no legs to stand on so all they can do is spam and divert.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.