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[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance

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Koshka narkotikov
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#541 - 2015-03-09 19:09:56 UTC
Not allowing interdiction nullified ships to hack the structures seems like an easy way to prevent this from getting too silly.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#542 - 2015-03-09 19:10:18 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

Anyone that can be assed to defend their space will succeed. WELL DONE, FULL MARKS SHERLOCK.

i hear that successfully defending one objective counts as defending the whole of your space when you have more than one system

Yes, god forbid an alliance of hundreds, or thousands, or even *gasp* tens of thousands of players has to put more than 1 cerb/eagle/cormorant/ANYTHING in a constellation.

The trollceptor only wins if it is unopposed. Anything that is unopposed SHOULD win because *gasp* NO ONE IS OPPOSING IT.

um constellations have at minimum five systems, and with three objectives each that is fifteen dudes to counter one dude

and the interceptor is not hardlocked into defending that system

if you had to actually risk something to necessitate this response I'd have no issues with it
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#543 - 2015-03-09 19:10:55 UTC
Groperson wrote:
Kinis Deren wrote:
The Mittani wrote:
Though it may come as a surprise to some, I'm a big fan of the new system, with some tweaks around the edges - tweak the links a little and I'm happy with them.

Here are some options I'd be in favor of w/r/t Entosis Links .

AttentionNone of these ideas are mineAttention - they come from Xttz, Progodlegend, or are otherwise ubiquitous across the community.


  • Interdiction Nullifiers could interfere with the activation of an Entosis Link - T3s would need to refit a different subsystem once at a target via a moble depot, and the mods would not work at all with interceptors.
  • Once activated, the Entosis Link could disable any fitted propulsion mod, like siege/triage currently.
  • Progodlegend's idea - we could limit the link module to cruiser class hulls and above via cpu/pg.


I'd be happy with any/all of the above three tweaks.

Cheers!


Nope.

We'd end up with a "bubble border" around every coalition to stop anyone from threatening the current sov null paradigm.

Allowing inties and T3's to fit and use the Entosis module prevents bubble spam being an effective strategy in nullifying the proposed sov mechanics.

Play the game and defend your systems then you won't have any issues coping with lone interceptors.



The thing is, if you allow interceptors to attack sov. What do you risk as the attacker?
Even in the most well defended region of space: deklein, you can just zoom interceptor gangs through with no risk because they are uncatchable.

That' bubble spam' that you encounter is called 'the residents defending their space'

You are advocating that even if residents defend their space, they will never be able to catch the people who are attacking it. That is broken, you risk nothing for attack and yet force the defenders to form a response and if it is insufficiently quick, do 10x the amount of work than the attackers.

If you want to play at the sov game then you should have to risk something, if you allow entosis links on interceptors, the attacker risks nothing. Whilst the defender has everything at risk.


Interceptor that cant warp for minimum 2 minutes after pressing the sov laser button is anything but "risk-free". Figure out from where are the bastards usually warping in, park a rapier or lachesis somewhere nearby and farm them. every second one drops ~80 mil isk module apparently.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#544 - 2015-03-09 19:11:38 UTC
Acuma wrote:

Except you don't......you only need one inty with the link to counter your's.

except that the defending ceptor has to also root himself at the beacon for 2 minutes while the attacker's link falls off, giving him a headstart to the next beacon
Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#545 - 2015-03-09 19:11:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Alp Khan
Eli Apol wrote:


edit: Anyone noticed that goons have to blob the forums to try and win their arguments?


We don't blob a thread really, actually Goons in general don't even enjoy reading and posting on Eve Online forums much, but Fozzie Sov is so ridiculously out of touch and premature that we feel compelled to do so. Morever, if there is a truth that needs to be acknowledged, it's that I'm really enjoying to read the opinions of a high-sec salvager about the sovereign null. It's really amusing.

Now, if you of course had a prior regular experience of getting out of your Noctis in empire every once in a while, and instead have taken your time to live in sovereign null for an extended period, you would have known that Goons (and by extension CFC) is probably the only major null power that actually use their own sovereign null space.

But please, don't be a stranger. Continue to share your opinion (had to call it opinion, I'm an optimist) on a type of space you have no prior experience with. Even serious forum posters need a break sometimes, and your posts really help during those breaks. Thank you!
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#546 - 2015-03-09 19:12:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
Promiscuous Female wrote:
here comes that "you must bring a logarithmically increasing number of dudes to counter the efforts of one person in a throwaway, yet uncatchable ship" thing again

Answer me this please Einstein: If logarithmically increasing numbers are required for more sov space held, does this affect a small alliance more or less than a large alliance?

Alp Khan wrote:
We don't blob really, but if there is a truth that needs to be acknowledged, it's that I'm really enjoying to read the opinions of a high-sec salvager about the sovereign null. It's really amusing.

Now, if you of course had a prior regular experience of getting out of your Noctis in empire every once in a while, and instead have taken your time to live in sovereign null for an extended period, you would have known that Goons (and by extension CFC) is probably the only major null power that actually use their own sovereign null space.

But please, don't be a stranger! Continue to share your opinion on a type of space you have no prior experience with! Even serious forum posters need a break sometimes, and your posts really help during those breaks. Thank you!
lol ad-hominem at an avatar of an alt. A useless point alliteratively dismissed.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#547 - 2015-03-09 19:13:34 UTC
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
Callduron wrote:
I think Damps will be a pretty hard counter to any trollceptor.

Maybe a frigate that can lock to 80km and and move 8km/s sounds scary but a cheap Celestis dunks it completely. Just sit on the beacon and damp it, the ceptor has to come to within 20km and all sorts of tactics will kill a tankless frigate 20km away.

you can easily get inty fits to well over 80km, especially once you get pairs of inties boosting each other

this also is the same dumb response that ignores the interceptor can't be caught, merely its trolling made successful by forcing you to sit on a gate doing nothing but staring impotently at it, while it can then vary it up by moving on to the next system


Active sov laser prevents remote assistance. Including remote SEBO's as far as I understand.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Acuma
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#548 - 2015-03-09 19:13:58 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Acuma wrote:

Except you don't......you only need one inty with the link to counter your's.

except that the defending ceptor has to also root himself at the beacon for 2 minutes while the attacker's link falls off, giving him a headstart to the next beacon
So he wins, you lose. You move on and start another RF timer which alerts them and they come and chase you off again because it takes you a minimum of 10 minutes to RF. I just started playing this game and I think I understand this new mechanic better than you LOL. You essentially cause zero harm to any system with players in it......and even systems within however many jumps an inty can make in 10+ minutes.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#549 - 2015-03-09 19:13:59 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
here comes that "you must bring a logarithmically increasing number of dudes to counter the efforts of one person in a throwaway, yet uncatchable ship" thing again

Answer me this please Einstein: If logarithmically increasing numbers are required for more sov space held, does this affect a small alliance more or less than a large alliance?

more, because the small alliance caps out faster than a large alliance does

goonswarm federation lives in deklein and can successfully withstand a higher degree of ceptor beacon spam than a smaller alliance trying to do the same
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#550 - 2015-03-09 19:15:49 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
here comes that "you must bring a logarithmically increasing number of dudes to counter the efforts of one person in a throwaway, yet uncatchable ship" thing again

Answer me this please Einstein: If logarithmically increasing numbers are required for more sov space held, does this affect a small alliance more or less than a large alliance?

more, because the small alliance caps out faster than a large alliance does

goonswarm federation lives in deklein and can successfully withstand a higher degree of ceptor beacon spam than a smaller alliance trying to do the same

The small alliance is defending one system and requires one person. Wrong answer.

Anyway, keep on ship-toasting I'm glad it won't be me topping the forum stats on this thread :)

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Luscius Uta
#551 - 2015-03-09 19:16:08 UTC
Trollceptors will not be an issue since a Celestis with bonused Information warfare links and a single remote sensor booster on it can damp and target from more than 200km away (and each Celestis can take care of up to 5 Trollceptors since that's how many Remote Sensor Dampeners it can fit).

I predict that most dedicated attackers will use Ubertanked Proteuses with Dissolution Sequencers subsystems or even Bastioned Marauders, those are not cheap of course but have infinitely greater chance to have their Entosis link running uninterrupted for 2 minutes, and even more importantly, stay alive at the end of it.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#552 - 2015-03-09 19:16:40 UTC
Acuma wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Acuma wrote:

Except you don't......you only need one inty with the link to counter your's.

except that the defending ceptor has to also root himself at the beacon for 2 minutes while the attacker's link falls off, giving him a headstart to the next beacon
So he wins, you lose. You move on and start another RF timer which alerts them and they come and chase you off again because it takes you a minimum of 10 minutes to RF. I just started playing this game and I think I understand this new mechanic better than you LOL. You essentially cause zero harm to any system with players in it......and even systems within however many jumps an inty can make in 10+ minutes.

it's an issue because you can't stop the attacking interceptor in any meaningful fashion from doing this every single day

if someone is being a nuisance it should be mechanically possible to stop him from being a nuisance, i feel like this is a reasonable request
Acuma
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#553 - 2015-03-09 19:17:11 UTC
Luscius Uta wrote:
Trollceptors will not be an issue since a Celestis with bonused Information warfare links and a single remote sensor booster on it can damp and target from more than 200km away (and each Celestis can take care of up to 5 Trollceptors since that's how many Remote Sensor Dampeners it can fit).

I predict that most dedicated attackers will use Ubertanked Proteuses with Dissolution Sequencers subsystems or even Bastioned Marauders, those are not cheap of course but have infinitely greater chance to have their Entosis link running uninterrupted for 2 minutes, and even more importantly, stay alive at the end of it.
2 minutes to start it up......minimum of 10 to actually RF. That's in an unused system. Was it like 40+ in a highly used one?
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#554 - 2015-03-09 19:17:22 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

Anyone that can be assed to defend their space will succeed. WELL DONE, FULL MARKS SHERLOCK.

i hear that successfully defending one objective counts as defending the whole of your space when you have more than one system

Yes, god forbid an alliance of hundreds, or thousands, or even *gasp* tens of thousands of players has to put more than 1 cerb/eagle/cormorant/ANYTHING in a constellation.

The trollceptor only wins if it is unopposed. Anything that is unopposed SHOULD win because *gasp* NO ONE IS OPPOSING IT.

um constellations have at minimum five systems, and with three objectives each that is fifteen dudes to counter one dude

and the interceptor is not hardlocked into defending that system

if you had to actually risk something to necessitate this response I'd have no issues with it

And the 1 inty has to capture more nodes than your 2 cerberii.

Which it cant.

Because capture speed is the same.

So for every node the inty takes, your cerberii (or ffs Caracals, it's not like an inty can force a caracal off the field) take 2 nodes.

2 nodes/10 minutes > 1 node/10 minutes.

Oh, and if you have occupancy advantages, it takes him 40 minutes to drop a node. Whereas it does not take you 40 minutes to secure a node since you don't have a defender penalty. So 1 defending caracal in an occupied constellation with defender advantage is worth 4 interceptors.

OR:
1 Caracal > 3 Trollceptors


GG NO RE.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#555 - 2015-03-09 19:17:54 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
here comes that "you must bring a logarithmically increasing number of dudes to counter the efforts of one person in a throwaway, yet uncatchable ship" thing again

Answer me this please Einstein: If logarithmically increasing numbers are required for more sov space held, does this affect a small alliance more or less than a large alliance?

more, because the small alliance caps out faster than a large alliance does

goonswarm federation lives in deklein and can successfully withstand a higher degree of ceptor beacon spam than a smaller alliance trying to do the same

The small alliance is defending one system and requires one person. Wrong answer.

Anyway, keep on ship-toasting I'm glad it won't be me topping the forum stats on this thread :)

so alliances should only be able to hold a single system, gotcha
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#556 - 2015-03-09 19:19:01 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

Anyone that can be assed to defend their space will succeed. WELL DONE, FULL MARKS SHERLOCK.

i hear that successfully defending one objective counts as defending the whole of your space when you have more than one system

Yes, god forbid an alliance of hundreds, or thousands, or even *gasp* tens of thousands of players has to put more than 1 cerb/eagle/cormorant/ANYTHING in a constellation.

The trollceptor only wins if it is unopposed. Anything that is unopposed SHOULD win because *gasp* NO ONE IS OPPOSING IT.

um constellations have at minimum five systems, and with three objectives each that is fifteen dudes to counter one dude

and the interceptor is not hardlocked into defending that system

if you had to actually risk something to necessitate this response I'd have no issues with it

And the 1 inty has to capture more nodes than your 2 cerberii.

Which it cant.

Because capture speed is the same.

So for every node the inty takes, your cerberii (or ffs Caracals, it's not like an inty can force a caracal off the field) take 2 nodes.

2 nodes/10 minutes > 1 node/10 minutes.

Oh, and if you have occupancy advantages, it takes him 40 minutes to drop a node. Whereas it does not take you 40 minutes to secure a node since you don't have a defender penalty. So 1 defending caracal in an occupied constellation with defender advantage is worth 4 interceptors.

OR:
1 Caracal > 3 Trollceptors


GG NO RE.

you're talking about capture node pimples, not the initial rf timer, which is all that i have ever been talking about throughout this entire thread
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#557 - 2015-03-09 19:20:03 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
afkalt wrote:

Or a cerberus is on field. Or a linked rapier/huginn/lachesis/garmur. Or a sniper fit turret ship. Or a smartbombing camp is in the way. Or it comes in close to kill the ship with damps on it or that is running its own link.

It's never at risk if you're remotely not serious about contesting the structure.

the interceptor just disengages if any of those things somehow managed to waddle onto field in defiance of an interceptor's superior warp speed

what is it about the concept "the interceptor can travel at will and disengage at will" are you chuckleheads failing to grasp


Did you read that little note that this sov laser thingy disables ability to warp while its active?

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#558 - 2015-03-09 19:20:05 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
you're talking about capture node pimples, not the initial rf timer, which is all that i have ever been talking about throughout this entire thread

Deklein's gonna have a bad case of teenage acne methinks.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Acuma
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#559 - 2015-03-09 19:20:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Acuma
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Acuma wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Acuma wrote:

Except you don't......you only need one inty with the link to counter your's.

except that the defending ceptor has to also root himself at the beacon for 2 minutes while the attacker's link falls off, giving him a headstart to the next beacon
So he wins, you lose. You move on and start another RF timer which alerts them and they come and chase you off again because it takes you a minimum of 10 minutes to RF. I just started playing this game and I think I understand this new mechanic better than you LOL. You essentially cause zero harm to any system with players in it......and even systems within however many jumps an inty can make in 10+ minutes.

it's an issue because you can't stop the attacking interceptor in any meaningful fashion from doing this every single day

if someone is being a nuisance it should be mechanically possible to stop him from being a nuisance, i feel like this is a reasonable request

You mean like high sec ganking?
Leisha Miranen
Doomheim
#560 - 2015-03-09 19:20:20 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:

you're talking about capture node pimples, not the initial rf timer, which is all that i have ever been talking about throughout this entire thread


I just wanted to note that you've now posted more than 72 times in this thread.