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[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance

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Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#461 - 2015-03-09 18:29:53 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
MASSADEATH wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
MASSADEATH wrote:

Deklin is a barren wasteland of empty useless space..where you could literally search for hours looking for targets outside of the main staging systems of the CFC and goons...and Deklin is the poster child for exactly what is wrong with the current SOV mechanics.

yeah sometimes you have to wait up to thirty minutes for a terrible membercorp to use the ya0 beacon



perhaps you should have PvP guards on your beacons? Or weigh the risks on using them.

perhaps you will have to have "SOV guards" on duty in your systems?



holy nonsequitor batman

i am talking about deklein density here, not your objectively wrong pvp opinions


They are pretty Guerrilla snowflakes that just want to role-play.

For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/

Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#462 - 2015-03-09 18:30:27 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Promiscuous Female wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

Look, even if you don't believe the rail boats (and the better arty and beam boats) can make intys squish at 100+ (and they do), the Cerberus can be fit to hit past 140km with RLML.

I trust everyone here knows what RLML does to an inty? Cool

nothing as it effortlessly burns outside of that range due to dscan, warp deceleration, and crappy lock time on the smallest signature ship in the game

If it burns out of range, the entosis link deactivates, you win.

Cerberus with 137km RLML Range (I lied it isn't 140, my bad lol):
https://o.smium.org/new/5916218721826766848#modules,search

Getting an inty to even lock past 137km is no small feat, but even THAT doesnt matter. Also, any decent rail boat (eagle, tengu, naga) will apply dps effectively well past that.

The zomg-trollceptor crowd needs to stop being bad.

uh you start moving the interceptor out of range if a caracal waddles onto grid, you don't just sit there and take it on the chin

caracal RLML misl takes 12 seconds to hit the target, at which point the interceptor has burned an additional 60km on the caracal

missiles don't hit if the target moves out of their effective range while the missiles are in flight

the point of the trollceptor isn't to effortlessly cap any objective, it's to cause an immense, logarithmically increasing amount of work for defenders while shouldering zero risk

it's mostly the risk part that is the issue, generating logarithmically increasing amounts of work is much less defensible considering the stated aims of the sov revamp to break up existing holdings

the only rebuttal I have seen from the pro-trollceptor crowd is little (wrong) vignettes about how easy it is to stop one ship from capturing one objective, when the problem is that it can hit any objective it wants without risk

Holy **** you're bad. I could link you a ship that owns interceptors up to 150km, and you'll still moan like a stuck pig.

And you know what? I'm gonna do just that. Behold the mighty eagle:

Eagle: http://imgur.com/KYZDvc5
Eagle vs. MWD Stiletto: http://imgur.com/v537Sv8
185 DPS at 120km
60 DPS at 150km.
Uses thorium if you're wondering (don't be bad by using spike).

If, by some miracle, the inty locks at 150km, it's fit is so bad that those 60dps will massacre it.

Please. Stop. Being. Bad.
MASSADEATH
MASS A DEATH
Scumlords
#463 - 2015-03-09 18:33:06 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
MASSADEATH wrote:
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
like seriously that deklein is, by far, the most inhabited and used region is an objective easily proven fact like that the sky is blue

trying to argue anything else just makes you look like an idiot even to npc posters supporting trollceptors




should be no problem defending that space then with it being so occupied then..so problem solved for you..

we can argue against a hilariously overpowered game feature while simultaneously being in the best position in the game to resist it




OHHH so your really trying to HELP out smaller alliances..... ahhhhh now it makes sense

Thank you very much for helping EVE....and our small alliance.

We could barely go wrong by doing the exact opposite of whatever goons/CFC or any of the other large alliances want. When you hear them cry... you know you are doing the right thing.
EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#464 - 2015-03-09 18:34:49 UTC
MASSADEATH wrote:

Thank you very much for helping EVE....and our small alliance.

when we talk about alliances we generally mean alliances able to hold sov, not vanity alliances that can't hold sov that got kicked out of the cfc for being utterly worthless
Arrendis
TK Corp
#465 - 2015-03-09 18:35:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Arrendis
SoulLess Zealot wrote:
Secondly whats the lock range on a tact destroyer?


Svipul can get out to 177km lock range in speed mode. In sniper, double it.

EDIT: that's 177km at 9.5km/s, or 344km at 5.7km/s
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#466 - 2015-03-09 18:35:45 UTC
Andrea Keuvo wrote:
Carniflex wrote:
Andrea Keuvo wrote:
You have two huge issues you need to address for sure before this stuff goes live:


1. If some linked nano 7km/s ship can operate this module people will abuse it.

2. If blobbing with 200 jamming frigs can prevent a non-blob entity from activating their Entosis links the blobbing entities will abuse it.


After you figure these things out can you think about how you will rebalance anomalies in nullsec to make it actually worth living there and to make systems below -.5 truesec actually able to support enough pilots for an occupancy based sov system to be viable?



If one side brings 200 ships to fight a smaller number of opposing ships he should have some advantage. There is ways around 200 jamming/damping ships. Snipers, for example as ECM range is limited.


I'm not opposed to a larger force having some advantage. What I'm opposed to is infecting sov war with *Snip* Please refrain from using profanity. ISD Ezwal. an ECM frig blob. The only thing worse than grinding millions of structure HP is spending an entire fight permajammed.


Use FoF missiles in that case? Or drones on aggressive? fit ECCM? Combat probe and drop on them with smart-bombs? If you know there is 200 (or whatever the exact number is" "troll ECM ships" on grid fit to counter them? Bring Triage carriers as drone triggers? Set drones on "guard" on your wingman instead of assist?

Although if a entity can bring a blob that cover the sun I can think of more scary things to field than few hundred ECM frigates.

One of the goals of the presented change also is to force multiple smaller engagements instead of one do or die event forcing to bring the blob.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Ranamar
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#467 - 2015-03-09 18:35:54 UTC
This thread has mostly devolved into noise, so let me add to it!

I think the things we really need to know are:

  • What happens when a ship using an entosis link loses lock on the entosis target? Does the module keep cycling?
  • You can't cancel the module early, right? You shouldn't be able to cancel it early.

My gut feeling is that having fittings of somewhere between a small nos and a cyno will block out most of the really degenerate fits, but I haven't checked that at all carefully.
Corey Lean
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#468 - 2015-03-09 18:36:10 UTC
MASSADEATH wrote:
when you "hell camp" us...we just move...

You dont have the luxury of moving. If you ever moved away from CFC lands your leader Gevlon Goblin would pull your funding.

So if fact, we are not locked in the north with you, you are locked in here with us P

Nobody has any illusions about the defense of Deklein, it would be trivial no matter what systems they implement but that doesnt mean a ****** system shouldnt be called out. A year from now half the map would be unclaimed because no one wants to invest in areas that can be conquered by cowards in stinky petes.
Killian Cormac
Cormac Distribution
#469 - 2015-03-09 18:36:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Killian Cormac
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Killian Cormac wrote:


Interceptors will be able to do nothing to prevent organized defenders from capturing their own nodes.

except generate so many more timers that the pure chaff makes targeting the actual point of defense impossible


Command nodes won't generate additional timers, they are either captured or not. Organized defenders will be able to retain sov with trivial ease against a wave of attacking interceptors, since they will be able to capture nodes and the attackers will have to stay out of sensor-damped lock range or die.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#470 - 2015-03-09 18:38:05 UTC
SoulLess Zealot wrote:
Amyclas Amatin wrote:
Will Entosis links do anything to ship velocity?

If they don't, even if you don't allow frigates to fit them, we will troll in orthruses or 10mn AB tactical destroyers.


Again another farce as much as troll cepters. .. First off you can be countered with the exact same thing... This goes for any percived doomsday fit . Secondly whats the lock range on a tact destroyer? Ever hear of sentry drones or rapid light missles or medium railguns; point is i hear alot of whinning, and not much to support the case except "it will make my life harder and show people im not as good as i say i am" . Not that im directing my comment soley at the author of the quote just the oppinion of.


These counters only work if said intercepter/frig/destroyer sits still. The second you land these ships will burn away from you and out of your range often before you can even lock them. most of them will be off grid before you even land.
SoulLess Zealot
Khaedra's Law
#471 - 2015-03-09 18:38:20 UTC  |  Edited by: SoulLess Zealot
Arrendis wrote:
SoulLess Zealot wrote:
Secondly whats the lock range on a tact destroyer?


Svipul can get out to 177km lock range in speed mode. In sniper, double it.


Ok so this fit cant actually stop anyone from countering there entosis mod.. So wheres the problem undock an i ibis with one loaded and walla
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#472 - 2015-03-09 18:39:00 UTC
Ann Markson wrote:
While the Trolleceptor thing itself is a useless rage it adresses another issue. Currently the majority of Sov Null systems is worth ****.
Alliances hold entire regions to have access to 10% of their systems in which people actually can rat at isk/h rates significantly above highsec levels.

People are mad because noone wants to life or be in the -0.1 or -0.2 systems because it adds a lot of effort while not giving access to anything worth much more in terms of income abilitiy.
So People hold large chunks of sov to use a very few parts of it now rage because the parts they dont use would be reinforced constantly, but are effectively not worth using at all, thus have no place in occupancy based Sov.

If CCP wants occupancy based Sov to work the truesecs either need a rework, or the anomaly system does in a way that makes the majority of Sov systems worth holding, not the minority of them.

One could argue that it doesnt has any place here, but with Sov being a very complex topic we need to adress each part of it simultaneously.



Simple, if the particular system is not worth holding it for the current holder, he does not use it or live in it he should just let it go. Let some poor newbie entity try to set up in there and RF it daily just for lols.

Sov has in the past been battle of will, before the supercap blobs turned dials to 11. And it seems it will be so again.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#473 - 2015-03-09 18:40:11 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
However, if you continue to pose your arguments as :

We want good fights.

this is where you've lost the thread

at no point is goonswarm federation interested in good fights

defense of our empire comes first, subjugation of those who would even think of attacking our empire comes second, subjugation of everyone else comes third

fights occasionally occur in the process of completing these two objectives but are completely tangential to our desires and goals
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#474 - 2015-03-09 18:41:30 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

Look, even if you don't believe the rail boats (and the better arty and beam boats) can make intys squish at 100+ (and they do), the Cerberus can be fit to hit past 140km with RLML.

I trust everyone here knows what RLML does to an inty? Cool

nothing as it effortlessly burns outside of that range due to dscan, warp deceleration, and crappy lock time on the smallest signature ship in the game

If it burns out of range, the entosis link deactivates, you win.

Cerberus with 137km RLML Range (I lied it isn't 140, my bad lol):
https://o.smium.org/new/5916218721826766848#modules,search

Getting an inty to even lock past 137km is no small feat, but even THAT doesnt matter. Also, any decent rail boat (eagle, tengu, naga) will apply dps effectively well past that.

The zomg-trollceptor crowd needs to stop being bad.

uh you start moving the interceptor out of range if a caracal waddles onto grid, you don't just sit there and take it on the chin

caracal RLML misl takes 12 seconds to hit the target, at which point the interceptor has burned an additional 60km on the caracal

missiles don't hit if the target moves out of their effective range while the missiles are in flight

the point of the trollceptor isn't to effortlessly cap any objective, it's to cause an immense, logarithmically increasing amount of work for defenders while shouldering zero risk

it's mostly the risk part that is the issue, generating logarithmically increasing amounts of work is much less defensible considering the stated aims of the sov revamp to break up existing holdings

the only rebuttal I have seen from the pro-trollceptor crowd is little (wrong) vignettes about how easy it is to stop one ship from capturing one objective, when the problem is that it can hit any objective it wants without risk

Holy **** you're bad. I could link you a ship that owns interceptors up to 150km, and you'll still moan like a stuck pig.

And you know what? I'm gonna do just that. Behold the mighty eagle:

Eagle: http://imgur.com/KYZDvc5
Eagle vs. MWD Stiletto: http://imgur.com/v537Sv8
185 DPS at 120km
60 DPS at 150km.
Uses thorium if you're wondering (don't be bad by using spike).

If, by some miracle, the inty locks at 150km, it's fit is so bad that those 60dps will massacre it.

Please. Stop. Being. Bad.

ah yes the interceptor that is polite enough to sit inside the eagle's optimal long enough to arrive from 14AU away, decelerate from warp, lock, and fire on it
MASSADEATH
MASS A DEATH
Scumlords
#475 - 2015-03-09 18:41:35 UTC
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
MASSADEATH wrote:

Thank you very much for helping EVE....and our small alliance.

when we talk about alliances we generally mean alliances able to hold sov, not vanity alliances that can't hold sov that got kicked out of the cfc for being utterly worthless



ohh you mean hold SOV under the current blob mechanics

too bad we are now talking about the new upcoming mechanics...

perhaps you will be NPC trash as well.... that would be funny indeed :)

MOA was kicked long ago.... I think all the PvErs are now with you guys :) the current group has nothing to do with the old one :)
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#476 - 2015-03-09 18:42:35 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
MASSADEATH wrote:
come on a corm sniping fleet :) and it will cure your doubts

ah yes the cormorant with its staggering 80-100km range

Combat probes will land it in engagement range every time. 100km is plenty when you land within 50-70km of your target.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#477 - 2015-03-09 18:42:48 UTC
Killian Cormac wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Killian Cormac wrote:


Interceptors will be able to do nothing to prevent organized defenders from capturing their own nodes.

except generate so many more timers that the pure chaff makes targeting the actual point of defense impossible


Command nodes won't generate additional timers, they are either captured or not. Organized defenders will be able to retain sov with trivial ease against a wave of attacking interceptors, since they will be able to capture nodes and the attackers will have to stay out of sensor-damped lock range or die.

you don't capture command nodes, you go to other systems and generate more initial RF timers while the defenders are busy whacking pimples
twit brent
Never Not AFK
#478 - 2015-03-09 18:44:06 UTC
I am not worried about evasion ceptors, i am worried about interceptors that will warp off and cloak when you respond. The last thing EVE needs is the meta pushed further into cloaky/nullffied ships.
MASSADEATH
MASS A DEATH
Scumlords
#479 - 2015-03-09 18:44:42 UTC
Corey Lean wrote:
MASSADEATH wrote:
when you "hell camp" us...we just move...

You dont have the luxury of moving. If you ever moved away from CFC lands your leader Gevlon Goblin would pull your funding.

So if fact, we are not locked in the north with you, you are locked in here with us P

Nobody has any illusions about the defense of Deklein, it would be trivial no matter what systems they implement but that doesnt mean a ****** system shouldnt be called out. A year from now half the map would be unclaimed because no one wants to invest in areas that can be conquered by cowards in stinky petes.



Wow what a reversal..... your actually after us now.... cool.... it will save us the 15 jumps each day.

Yeah because x-70, roir, saranen, and taisy ect ect are Soooo far away to base out of to kill CfC /goons
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#480 - 2015-03-09 18:44:44 UTC
Querns wrote:
Kaylee Fonza wrote:
Arkon Olacar wrote:
Jaro Essa wrote:
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
Trollceptors fundamentally don't fit the "effective control of the grid" argument. The things that can hit an orbiting snaked-out interceptor are few and far between and require very specific fits to counter, allowing a trollceptor to easily keep a link alive without effective control of the grid.

You won't have to kill the interceptor. With your own entosis link active on the structure or command node, no progress can be made towards the timer. Though, if you can't kill one interceptor, why should you have sov?.

Sure, but no progress in either direction would be made while both links were active. You just reach a stalemate, where your fleet is rendered useless by a single interceptor, burning at 7-8km/s at 100-150km. That's just dumb mechanics.


If the interceptor is flying at 100-150km, 1 celestis can make is useless.

The interceptor disengages, and uses its superior agility and warp speed to move to another capturable object.

The celestis cannot keep up with an interceptor.

The ability for an interceptor to be countered while sitting at one beacon was never in question. The interceptor's ability to disengage and travel with impunity is the issue.


Minimum time 2 min for first cykle + 10 min - I think you are underestimating the celestis speed. I'm pretty sure celestis can cover healthy amount of space in ~10 minutes. Unless ofc inty runs into some other guys territory in which case it's no longer the celestis guy problem. Chase it 2-3 jumps and go back to ratting in your home system.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.