These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#241 - 2015-03-09 16:15:07 UTC
Murkar Omaristos wrote:
And limit the number of entosis modules that can be activated against a target corp at one time so small gangs cant just all spread out to different systems and wreak total havoc.


Absolutely ******* no. This is exactly what small entites should be able to do - harrass their larger neighbors and conceal their true targets behind false flags.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#242 - 2015-03-09 16:15:13 UTC
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
xttz wrote:
Will an active Entosis Link prevent cloaking?

Last time I checked you can't target anything while cloaked. Blink

that is not what "prevent cloaking" means
Arrendis
TK Corp
#243 - 2015-03-09 16:15:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Arrendis
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
I see coalitions full of super capitals and other 'bling bling' type stuff. You guys even refer to losing 250 billion ISK to a thief as 'chump change and doesn't affect the goon bottom line.'

So tell me, which is it. You are rich or you are poor? Because you can't flip flop around depending on the subject. If you are the later then maybe you should start to question why your leadership is hording all the money while you starve.


You're confusing alliance income and personal income there. Coalitions can afford to field supercapitals in numbers because a)they're almost never killed when deployed like that, and b)the alliances involved can afford to replace them, where the individual pilot might not easily do so. They're strategic assets, mostly.

Also, the 250b isk stolen was largely made in highsec - the Miniluv cache comes from selling off the loot from ganks. It's not that it 'doesn't affect the goon bottom line' because it's chump change - it doesn't impact the alliance finances because Miniluv is self-supporting. Organized highsec ganking is profitable, and the profits get rolled back into the Ministry's operations.
SilentAsTheGrave
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#244 - 2015-03-09 16:15:41 UTC
Murkar Omaristos wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
As much as possible, the Entosis Link capture progress should reflect which group has effective military control of the grid.


This will not happen if frigates are allowed to use it.

Quote:
The optimal strategy for fighting over a location with the Entosis Link should be to gain effective control of the grid.


Then make it disable prop mods as well, so people can't ***** out and kite their way through a sov capture.

If their intent to attack the sov in a given system is genuine and not just trolling, then they'll have no problem fighting for control of the grid, instead of kiting until the other guy dies of boredom.

One or both of those things should be implemented, if you are actually serious about making it matter who has control of the grid. Otherwise it will be a trolling contest.


This......is actually a very good idea.

No, this is not. That idea is basically throwing the baby out with the bathwater. So because you are worried about a handful of super fast ships you kill all propulsion to fix it? That is terrible. You address the key ships and make adjustments. Not turn the grid into 'Only Brick Tanked Slow Boats Allowed' game play.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#245 - 2015-03-09 16:15:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Sbrodor wrote:
250km is some time a offgrid distance, grid manipulation mechanics and other edge-mechanics; i think is better close range to 50km is good .
Another good counter to the trollceptors: Grid fu to make them leave grid whilst orbitting and lose their locks

Nice one :)

this is not how grid fu works

You can shrink a grid by extending the grids that surround it... I learned this from a goons .pdfRoll

It's quite a common technique in Niarja and Uedema to make the grids surrounding the gates smaller so that they can gank offgrid without having to bump the freighters so far.

Grid Fu Guide wrote:
How to Shrink Grids
It’s very easy to shrink a grid and is something that can be setup before a conflict and bookmarks can be made to quickly re-shrink the grid.

General Steps:
1. Pilot starts at the Tower and chooses a direction to fly towards.
2. Start burning away from the Tower.
3. When you fall off grid. Stop the ship, drop a can/corpse/etc, and make a Bookmark.
- Name the bookmark something meaningful.
4. Start flying back towards the Tower.
5. When you get back on
grid with the Tower, stop and turn back around.
6. When you fall off grid again you should see your first can/corpse/etc. Stop the ship, drop a can/corpse/etc, and make a Bookmark.
7. Repeat steps 4 - 6 until you hit a hard wall.
- Normally, this will occur when you are about 140km from the Tower.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#246 - 2015-03-09 16:16:11 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
afkalt wrote:

Unless they're linked, drugged and on high grade slaves, a Cerberus will ruin their day. So will a cloaky recon.

But let's not let realities get in the way of the propaganda machine.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

none of those things will ruin its day because it will trivially disengage
DaeHan Minhyok
Logical Outcomes
#247 - 2015-03-09 16:17:26 UTC
What if the entosis link required charges each cycle and the quantity and volume of charges made it inpractical for T1/T2 frig/desi or tactical desi to run a link long enough to challenge any solar system sov with any single index above a 2-3?

Thus a small ship would have to sacrifice its low slots and rigs to cargo rxpansion hampering its speed, agility, dps, and tank.

This would also make battlecruisers and larger a necessity for taking systems with higher indices.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#248 - 2015-03-09 16:17:28 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
afkalt wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
what is it about the concept "the interceptor can travel at will and disengage at will" are you *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.failing to grasp

The fact that it can't "disengage at will" while an Entosis Link is active? Which gives a defender up to 2 minutes to close and kill it? Especially when the fight starts at less than 80km due to combat probes?

how do you close on an interceptor before it burns off grid exactly

hint: they go fast, can't be bubbled, and scrams have a very short range on anything that can keep up with them


Unless they're linked, drugged and on high grade slaves, a Cerberus will ruin their day. So will a cloaky recon.

But let's not let realities get in the way of the propaganda machine.

A rapier can only web to 100km with gang boners

An arazu scram is under 75km

A cerberus has a maximum engagement window of 125km, its missiles take 12 seconds to go that far, while the interceptor starts at 110km (malediction) and has the benefit of dscan, a 2 second minimum warp deceleration window, and a cruiser's terrible lock time in which to heat its MWD and start burning away

none of these things require the malediction to have drugs, boners, or implants
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#249 - 2015-03-09 16:17:32 UTC  |  Edited by: xttz
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
xttz wrote:
Will an active Entosis Link prevent cloaking?

Last time I checked you can't target anything while cloaked. Blink


It's a point about contesting without risk. Let's say a ship sits 200km+ off a structure with a link active, and something shows up on grid to kill it. Can it simply hit the cloak button and be safe until the current cycle ends, then warp off?
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#250 - 2015-03-09 16:17:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Soldarius
Eli Apol wrote:
Sbrodor wrote:
250km is some time a offgrid distance, grid manipulation mechanics and other edge-mechanics; i think is better close range to 50km is good .
Another good counter to the trollceptors: Grid fu to make them leave grid whilst orbitting and lose their locks


Last I checked intentionally shrinking a grid is considered an exploit and will get you banned. So don't do it.

As for trollceptors, a one-off troll link is no big concern. There are plenty of ways to counter that from snipers, to damps, to defensive links. But like my first post in the original thread, I'm more worried about a large enitity roaming around with 50 of them and reinforcing everything with little to no risk.

I still think that the easiest way to handle the problem is to treat the Entosis Link like a link and only be fittable on link-capable ships; ie CBCs, CS, and link T3s.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
John McCreedy
Eve Defence Force
#251 - 2015-03-09 16:18:27 UTC  |  Edited by: John McCreedy
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
Murkar Omaristos wrote:
Remove trollceptors as a possibility plz, kthx. And limit the number of entosis modules that can be activated against a target corp at one time so small gangs cant just all spread out to different systems and wreak total havoc.

So this alliance that owns the sov can't spare enough guys to match that small gang in their prime time to defend the systems being contested?

I don't get it. There seems to be a lot of cherry picking going around when creating these doomsday situations.


I don't know about you but the average player plays around 3-4 hours a day during the week. Your alliance is going to set the vulnerability window to the time you play Eve. I'm going to sit there in my cloaky interceptor. Am I there to annoy you? Or am I there to reinforce your sov? You can't probe me out because I'm cloaked. You can't stop me because I'm interdiction nullified. Do you want to take the chance I can reinforce G-E? More importantly, does Brave?

So you have a choice. Ignore me and hope I'm just there as an annoyance. Or risk sov in your Capital system. If you want to protect it, you've no choice but to set up a camps on the Station, the TCU and the iHub because gate camps are useless. So your entire play time is reduced to a camp to try catch a cloaky camper that may or may not attack your sov. No ratting for you. No mining for you. No roaming for you. All the other time zones in your alliance can rat or mine or roam. But not you. Not yours. You are on guard duty. Why? Because CCP decided it was a good idea to allow Interceptors to reinforce systems. Sound like fun to you?

13 years and counting. Eve Defence Force is recruiting.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#252 - 2015-03-09 16:18:59 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Sbrodor wrote:
250km is some time a offgrid distance, grid manipulation mechanics and other edge-mechanics; i think is better close range to 50km is good .
Another good counter to the trollceptors: Grid fu to make them leave grid whilst orbitting and lose their locks

Nice one :)

this is not how grid fu works

You can shrink a grid by extending the grids that surround it... I learned this from a goons .pdf Roll

It's quite a common technique in Niarja and Uedema to make the grids surrounding the gates smaller so that they can gank offgrid without having to bump the freighters so far.

you can only do this if there is no one else on grid holding it open

grid fu will never cause a stationary ship to suddenly slip out of a grid through no fault of its own
Darius Caliente
The Pinecone Squad
United Federation of Conifers
#253 - 2015-03-09 16:21:29 UTC
It seems to me that the solution to ensure the Entosis link isn't abused is to merge the mechanics of two existing modules.

1) Cyno
-- Staying stationary is probably overkill but providing an overview icon, visible across the entire system that anyone can warp to would be a good start.

2) Warp Disruption Field Generator
-- Penalize the velocity bonus of MWDs and ABs.

Tying those two mechanics together would be a good start.
DeadDuck
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#254 - 2015-03-09 16:22:14 UTC
The danger is not in the single guy that comes along in a fast ship to mess with your sov.

The abuse will be in a group of 5-10 fast ships protecting the "troll ceptor(s)" that can pretty much mess up the sov of a solid alliance without much effort or risk. That's it...

Bring 2 troll ceptors, 1 of grid booster, 3-5 ortrus/cynabals/Ishtars + 1 or 2 keres + 1 Logistic and you have a winner, to turn sov a nightmare to keep to 99,99% of the alliances in game.

This WILL happen unless there is a penalty to ship velocity of some kind even if It would make so much more sense to restrict the enthosis link to cap ships.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#255 - 2015-03-09 16:22:22 UTC
I wonder how you want to establish effective military control with members of your own your own alliance on multiple grids at once against things like slippery Petes and bombers that kill anything that activates an entosis link. All while the entosing ship can't receive remote reps.

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#256 - 2015-03-09 16:22:25 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
*Snip* Please refrain from discussing forum moderation. ISD Ezwal.

The question about interceptors is a key one in terms of certain regions that are very difficult to get to, the first concept to work back to is the question of whether this requires regional defence or system defence. If you want it to be system defence the interceptors must be an option.

The issue of course comes in with the ability to get there, this is not Grrr Goons, but Goon Deklin is the example that I need to highlight, without the use of interceptors you give the Goons such a strategic advantage we might as well just give up, all they have to do is gate camp three gates, which will be behind other gate camps. Then you will give them free reign to run around doing what they want with very little fear about their home area.

It comes down to you CCP Fozzie thinking whether having people able to RF stuff with interceptors to grief balances off against the inability to get into Deklin space in any meaningful way.

I of course would prefer to have the ability to use interceptors as part of what I would call the softening up period, trying to throw the defender off balance by splitting their defence, but I would be happy to do that in a fair amount of 0.0 space without the ability of interceptors to get through bubbles and gate camps, but not killing me in terms of cost if lost, the only other ships that could do that are T3's but they cost.

So if you remove the ability to use interceptors you reduce the need for system defence!

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#257 - 2015-03-09 16:22:37 UTC
DaeHan Minhyok wrote:
What if the entosis link required charges each cycle and the quantity and volume of charges made it inpractical for T1/T2 frig/desi or tactical desi to run a link long enough to challenge any solar system sov with any single index above a 2-3?

Thus a small ship would have to sacrifice its low slots and rigs to cargo rxpansion hampering its speed, agility, dps, and tank.

This would also make battlecruisers and larger a necessity for taking systems with higher indices.


This is a more elegant solution than preventing specific fits. If frigates could only run 1 or 2 cycles before needing to reload somewhere, they would at least require some form of support and/or teamwork.

It probably does make blockade runners the new Big Bad, but at least they're vulnerable to bubbles.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#258 - 2015-03-09 16:23:29 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Dracvlad wrote:
*Snip* Please refrain from discussing forum moderation. ISD Ezwal.

The question about interceptors is a key one in terms of certain regions that are very difficult to get to, the first concept to work back to is the question of whether this requires regional defence or system defence. If you want it to system defence the interceptors must be an option.

The issue of course comes in with the ability to get there, this is not Grrr Goons, but Goon Deklin is the example that I need to highlight, without the use of interceptors you give the Goons such a strategic advantage we might as well just give up, all they have to do is gate camp three gates, which will be behind other gate camps. Then you will give them free reign to run around doing what they want with very little fear about their home area.

It comes down to you CCP Fozzie thinking whether having people able to RF stuff with interceptors to grief balances off against the inability to get into Deklin space in any meaningful way.

I of course would prefer to have the ability to use interceptors as part of what I would call the softening up period, trying to throw the defender off balance by splitting their defence, but I would be happy to do that in a fair amount of 0.0 space without the ability of interceptors to get through bubbles and gate camps, but not killing me in terms of cost if lost, the only other ships that could do that are T3's but they cost.

So if you remove the ability to use interceptors you reduce the need for system defence!

i guess they don't have blops BS, covert cloaking ships, or wormholes where you live
SilentAsTheGrave
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#259 - 2015-03-09 16:24:21 UTC
xttz wrote:
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
xttz wrote:
Will an active Entosis Link prevent cloaking?

Last time I checked you can't target anything while cloaked. Blink


It's a point about contesting without risk. Let's say a ship sits 200km+ off a structure with a link active. Can it simply hit the cloak button and be safe until the current cycle ends, then warp off?

Apologies. I miss read what you said.

I understand what you are saying now. I'm not opposed to the idea that it should not be possible to fit a cloak and Entosis Link at the same time. They could be cloaked with the Entosis Link and Depot in their cargo and just refit when the system is empty, but I don't see that as a deal breaker. After all, if the defending sov owner does not have a presence in the system in their prime time, then they don't need it.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#260 - 2015-03-09 16:24:29 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Promiscuous Female wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
what is it about the concept "the interceptor can travel at will and disengage at will" are you *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal. failing to grasp

The fact that it can't "disengage at will" while an Entosis Link is active? Which gives a defender up to 2 minutes to close and kill it? Especially when the fight starts at less than 80km due to combat probes?

how do you close on an interceptor before it burns off grid exactly

hint: they go fast, can't be bubbled, and scrams have a very short range on anything that can keep up with them


Unless they're linked, drugged and on high grade slaves, a Cerberus will ruin their day. So will a cloaky recon.

But let's not let realities get in the way of the propaganda machine.

A rapier can only web to 100km with gang boners

An arazu scram is under 75km

A cerberus has a maximum engagement window of 125km, its missiles take 12 seconds to go that far, while the interceptor starts at 110km (malediction) and has the benefit of dscan, a 2 second minimum warp deceleration window, and a cruiser's terrible lock time in which to heat its MWD and start burning away

none of these things require the malediction to have drugs, boners, or implants



100km is plenty. 75km is plenty as it will either be orbiting or stationary, you'll catch it.

Also, territory defended. Op success.


A NOOB SHIP with a link can stop this nonsense, never mind something with weapons.


These are never in a million years going to be the terrors you're making out if you live in your space. I recall of a lot of chat about siphons and this exact thing being bandied about. "It's too easy", "we'll siphon every moon in the cosmos just because".

If you think the eve collective can't come up with creative ways to stop these (hint: 80m modules assumed to be on EVERY 'ceptor in a given window is a big incentive to pop these) I don't know what to tell you (but I'm buying up smartbombs before it's too late)