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[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance

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EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#181 - 2015-03-09 15:20:02 UTC  |  Edited by: EvilweaselFinance
Callduron wrote:
I think Damps will be a pretty hard counter to any trollceptor.

Maybe a frigate that can lock to 80km and and move 8km/s sounds scary but a cheap Celestis dunks it completely. Just sit on the beacon and damp it, the ceptor has to come to within 20km and all sorts of tactics will kill a tankless frigate 20km away.

you can easily get inty fits to well over 80km, especially once you get pairs of inties boosting each other

this also is the same dumb response that ignores the interceptor can't be caught, merely its trolling made successful by forcing you to sit on a gate doing nothing but staring impotently at it, while it can then vary it up by moving on to the next system
Siival
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#182 - 2015-03-09 15:20:23 UTC
So far I have thoroughly enjoyed the changes offered and I know I am in the vocal minority here. Some simple points to note that completely counter the constant nerd rage of all these people crying about troll ceptors.

First of all, you must maintain a lock on the target, for the link to work. so if anything any EWAR sensor damping ship will completely, and entirely **** on this strat. Lock range damped to 20k, how to run now. T2 Light drones can also move at speeds greater than 5k with incredible ease. Missle boats that have increased velocity over time can counter this with relative easy.

If you are not creative enough to work with the rules given, you are not deserving of the easy isk that comes with SOV. This system is designed to keep people active in the systems they control. Every is so worried about the first phase of SOV flipping I have heard little to no discussion about the second and third phases. ( excluding that free porting and 3rd partying are a bit silly )

Regardless speculation is what makes Eve great, and it really is what defines the great from the mediocre in regards to planning. But if you can't see past the first five seconds of conflict, you will always remain blind to opportunity for advancement.

Something I do want to chime in about is the fact that most people are talking about SOV not even worth holding and as much as I love the concept of holding SOV I have to agree. If this new system is designed to make us more active in the systems we hold, and condense the population, then something really must be done to make SOV worth holding. I wish I had a reasonable idea of how this could be done without just teetering to my biased desires, but this is something I have full confidence other members of the community and the staff at CCP are fully capable of addressing and hopefully fixing.
SilentAsTheGrave
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#183 - 2015-03-09 15:20:29 UTC
Kale Freeman wrote:
What about ditching the whole Entosis link entirely. Make a Entosis deployable. It takes 10 minutes to come online. It needs to be deployed within 25/250km of the objective. Once it is online and there are no more enemy entosis deployables on grid the owner can right click it and instruct it to attack/hack the objective.

Oh, structure bashing...

Are you even paying attention?
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#184 - 2015-03-09 15:21:41 UTC
Agent Known wrote:
In regards to the trollceptor fit, I can't even get a cap stable fitting with any of the interceptors ...and only a handful of them have the PG and low slots for the aux cores to make a MWD fit.

Plus, in doing so you're making them purpose-fit and useless for anything else. The defender has up to 40 minutes to contest an active system and pause all progress. This is assuming the interceptor makes it to the system to begin with.

Empires who hold enough space for their size will be able to counter any of this nonsense. For one thing, intel channels are a thing and neutrals will be reported long before they have a chance to capture anything.

You are probably trying to fit an oversized prop mod to an interceptor. You want to fit a 1MN Microwarp Drive. Every interceptor can fit a 1mn mwd without fitting issues.

Also, train power grid management to 5. It's a rank 1 skill.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#185 - 2015-03-09 15:22:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
Hi Fozzie and thanks for making this thread Big smile

CCP Fozzie wrote:

The Entosis Link itself should have the minimum possible effect on what ships and tactics players can choose.

Entosis Links will always have some effect on the types of ships and tactics people find viable for Sov warfare, but we should strive to keep those effects to a minimum. As much as possible, we should work towards a meta where whatever fleet concept would win the fight and control the grid would also be viable for using the Entosis Links.


How do you intend to reach that goal on ships that don't have a utility high?



As for the "trollceptors"... I understand that it can be a concern, but don't let yourself get metagamed on this one. Frigates and other ships should retain the ability to fit enthosis modules, but maybe you should add a few stats on the module?

I'd suggest :
- Max speed : 4000 m/s
- Inertia modifier : x2

This should be enough to leave other ships relatively unharmed, even other frigates, while giving people the ability to catch trollceptors if needed. Even though the counters to a trollceptor are so numerous its almost comical.

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Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#186 - 2015-03-09 15:23:44 UTC
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
Callduron wrote:
I think Damps will be a pretty hard counter to any trollceptor.

Maybe a frigate that can lock to 80km and and move 8km/s sounds scary but a cheap Celestis dunks it completely. Just sit on the beacon and damp it, the ceptor has to come to within 20km and all sorts of tactics will kill a tankless frigate 20km away.

you can easily get inty fits to well over 80km, especially once you get pairs of inties boosting each other

this also is the same dumb response that ignores the interceptor can't be caught, merely its trolling made successful by forcing you to sit on a gate doing nothing but staring impotently at it, while it can then vary it up by moving on to the next system

Entosis link prevents remote boosts.

But yeah a 2x sebo inty can do 100 something km.

...with no tank and no utility and no dps.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

John McCreedy
Eve Defence Force
#187 - 2015-03-09 15:24:18 UTC  |  Edited by: John McCreedy
Elenahina wrote:
John McCreedy wrote:
Doesn't this just lead to escalation which is what the proposed change is meant to remove? That said, is there anything wrong with escalation initially?


There really is nothing wrong with escalation, in and of itself, if the target demands it, The issue we have witht he current meta is that every target demands it, because you have to burn through a gajillion EHP to get anywhere. So the attackers bring their biggest guns in bulk, because they don't want to be there for three days shooting structures.

So now the defender has two choices - respond in kind, or stay home.

I have lived in sov entities that have crunched the numbers, and stood down from a timer fight because there was no way they could win it with the people available. That is what shouldn't be happening.


I completely agree. I'm just against saying that players during a certain period of the day can't mine, can't rat, can't do anything other than camp up to three structures in a system in order to prevent a single Interceptor from disrupting the sov. That cannot be considered balanced. The problem with the deployable entosis module is that if its set to current deployable HP, it can quite easily be headshot straight off the field by the defender. The attacker deploys a couple of Triage Carriers to perma-rep it and it then becomes a HP grind the defender is unlikely to win before the system is hacked. So the defender brings Dreads to kill the Carriers. Or brings their Mobile Entosis Module in which case it becomes a Mexican standoff until control of the grid is obtained.

Yes, the more I think about this the more I see a deployable Entosis module being the way to go rather than a ship-based link. Escalation in this manner would lead to more fights but still allow alliances the choice. Smaller alliances could foregoe the need to defend the structures, banking on their smaller size increasing mobility and response times to better tackle the command node battle. Alliances more used to smaller fleets rather than F1 jockeys would have an easier time of it. Larger alliances might find use of their superior numbers easier to defend against vulnerability in the first place. It opens up more diversity in to the way we attack sov.

13 years and counting. Eve Defence Force is recruiting.

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#188 - 2015-03-09 15:26:48 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:

But yeah a 2x sebo inty can do 100 something km.

...with no tank and no utility and no dps.

It doesn't need these things to survive or be effective.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross
Unreasonable Bastards
#189 - 2015-03-09 15:27:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Murkar Omaristos
Remove trollceptors as a possibility plz, kthx. And limit the number of entosis modules that can be activated against a target corp at one time so small gangs cant just all spread out to different systems and wreak total havoc.
Andy Koraka
State War Academy
Caldari State
#190 - 2015-03-09 15:29:42 UTC
Add the same effects as an active HIC bubble to ships running active Entosis links:

-90% velocity
+sig bloom

it is actually that easy to fix the trollceptor and make the attacker actually expose their ship to getting tackled/shot by a defender.
davet517
Raata Invicti
#191 - 2015-03-09 15:31:39 UTC
Arkon Olacar wrote:
rsantos wrote:
I still see this has the defending part owing too much sov.


Then how much sov is 'enough' sov for a 18k coalition? As clearly a single region is too much, according to our expert sov holder Mordus Angels.


Clearly, as things stand today they need that much space, or more. System resources really need to scale with the number of players occupying it, to a degree, and that should go hand in hand with how much space that many players could reasonably be expected to defend without being run ragged.

Of their 18K, how many are logged in at any given time? 10%? 20%? Lets say it's 2000. If a system's resources could scale to 100 players more or less actively playing, Brave could fit in 20 systems, more or less, and easily defend that many without chasing their tails. They could certainly threaten and even take adjacent systems, but they'd have to be mindful of the downside of getting too spread out.

That opens up space for new entrants. If you want a deterrent to systems getting too densely packed, start widening the "prime time" window once they exceed a certain threshold, forcing the sov holder to either spread out, or defend a bigger window.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#192 - 2015-03-09 15:32:19 UTC
A disturbing trend by the balance team has been to "over-buff" things and then tone them down (years later) if media attention shames them into it. Have you considered, conversely, to risk a thing being underpowered at the start, then boosting its effectiveness?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#193 - 2015-03-09 15:32:37 UTC
Andy Koraka wrote:
Add the same effects as an active HIC bubble to ships running active Entosis links:

-90% velocity
+sig bloom

it is actually that easy to fix the trollceptor and make the attacker actually expose their ship to getting tackled/shot by a defender.


-90% velocity and sig bloom is extremely bad when it comes to keeping every doctrine that is viable without enthosises a viable choice with them.

You need to consider a penalty that doesn't harm most doctrines in the game. Capping the maximum velocity is one way to achieve this. If you cap it to say 3 or 4km/s, other ceptors can easily catch your trollceptor, while leaving virtually every other doctrine untouched by the change.

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[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart

Christopher Schmidt
#194 - 2015-03-09 15:33:27 UTC
not sure if this was brought up yet.

But to like counter these trollinterceptors, how about you allow alliances to anchor pos guns/ewar on their sov structures, doesnt have to be dickstarish, just enough CPU for 5 small guns and a web or something.
Problem solved, no more troll interceptors.

http://germans-cartel.de/

Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross
Unreasonable Bastards
#195 - 2015-03-09 15:35:05 UTC
Also, you got nearly 200 pages of responses in 48 hours after posting this idea. Do you rly think "thanks but we're leaving it like this" is a satisfactory response to that?

Fix the concerns that people have, don't just put a PR-bandaid on it.
GsyBoy
Doomheim
#196 - 2015-03-09 15:36:00 UTC
Simples, only can be used by a rorq or an orca. If you can not defend, you should not own sov. Committment to taking sov then assured.

https://www.twitch.tv/gsyboy

Capqu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#197 - 2015-03-09 15:36:36 UTC
Murkar Omaristos wrote:
Also, you got nearly 200 pages of responses in 48 hours after posting this idea. Do you rly think "thanks but we're leaving it like this" is a satisfactory response to that?

Fix the concerns that people have, don't just put a PR-bandaid on it.


whats wrong with http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Delve/PR-8CA
i've lived here a long time its a gr8 system
ShesAForumAlt
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#198 - 2015-03-09 15:36:42 UTC
The single Trolletto or whatever the hell you want to call it doesn't bother me - A single meta 4 fitted Maulus can damp it down below 40km with a pair of damps and a Sebo to boost its own range. If the ceptor decides to trade speed for locking range, then simply fit signal amps - 3 signal amps + leadership bonus gives you nearly max targeting range. Add in to the fact you have plenty of room to fit your own Entosis Link (fitting room is even greater than the ceptor) so you can actively reverse the cap process. Ceptor is either forced to close to kill you or pisses off.

The problem comes, as always in EVE, in scalability. The troll ceptor fit is easily able to run in massive numbers, so I could see a gang of 50 of them running into a constellation and reinforcing everything at once. This comes with little risk to the ceptors themselves. You might lose a couple, but in the end it'd be far too many to deal with at once and some structures would have to go into reinforce (or be offlined for station services). This happening day in and day out I think would be pretty crushing to any group. Not sure how to resolve that issue, or even if it isn't by design.

This is totally my main. 

SilentAsTheGrave
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#199 - 2015-03-09 15:37:04 UTC
The root cause of concern from groups who specialize in focusing all available man power onto into one system is they will have two choices:

  1. They continue with this exact same tactic and their massive territory shrinks down dramatically. As in just a handful of systems.
  2. They spread out across their territory. I'm not talking temporarily, but more like they are stationed to systems and constellations in order to maintain their empire. This will mean their blob is no more and they will not have the luxury of throwing thousands upon thousands of warm bodies at a problem to solve it. They will have to develop smaller scale combat skills, find a lot more fleet commanders, start dealing with their own logistics. The list goes on and on.

  3. This would also mean that smaller groups looking to get into null will only have to engage that smaller section to get a system or two. If that smaller defending section sounds the Horn of Gondor and everyone comes to their aid, it leaves the rest of their territory ripe for invasion, so they can't. It would mean more leaders and less relying on an ultra select few who reap all the benefits while tossing crumbs to the many. All these battles being spread across so many systems instead of every null entity cramming into one system means the odds of TiDi went way, way down. Over all a far better and enjoyable experience.

It is pretty obvious which choice is better for the game as a whole. But, I'm sure those with vested interest in keeping things similar to what they are now will continue to scream the loudest.
rsantos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#200 - 2015-03-09 15:38:16 UTC
Arkon Olacar wrote:
rsantos wrote:
I still see this has the defending part owing too much sov.


Then how much sov is 'enough' sov for a 18k coalition? As clearly a single region is too much, according to our expert sov holder Mordus Angels.


I didn't said that.

if the defender entity to defend a constellation has to leave all their other space at risk of reinforce and without protection then it owns to much space.