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[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance

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Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#101 - 2015-03-09 14:20:33 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:

Do not remove the potential for specific ship types that are able to penetrate into enemy space from using the module otherwise we'll just see blob heavy gatecamps and iron curtains around empty rental space.


I'm curious what the problem is with that.


Fozziebear wrote:
Goal #3: Minimize the systemic pressure to bring more people or larger ships than would be required to simply defeat your enemies on the field of battle.

Goal #4: Drastically reduce the time and effort required to conquer undefended space.

Goal #5: Provide significant strategic benefits from living in your space.

Goal #6: Spread the largest Sovereignty battles over multiple star systems to take advantage of New Eden’s varied geography and to better manage server load.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
rsantos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2015-03-09 14:20:49 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Quote:

Yes with this new sov mechanic the major blocks will have a hard time keeping all their sovs holding... but thats exactly the point of the change.


That's so much not the point, for what I said or for this rebalance, that I find it hard to believe you're sincere.


Yes it is! The point of this rebalance is also to make you loose the sov you don't use and that you don't want to defend.

We all want more people in null sec! Not all of us want more people in CFC or NC.!
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#103 - 2015-03-09 14:22:13 UTC
Arkon Olacar wrote:
Jessy Andersteen wrote:
About the trollceptor. It's stupid. Ok, u can't kill the "trollceptor" but...

Remember: targeting range of the interceptor. Put a single Maulus, hyena,keres, rapier, huggin, razzu or a griffin on the field...

Bye bye trollceptor.

Trollceptor is a troll. Don't feed the troll.

Awesome.

Hero owns 98 systems in Catch, and 38 stations. We now need 136 mauluses to spend 4 hours a night sitting on an ihub/station. Except of course if these trollceptors have any kind of weapons, it can kill the maulus, so we partner them with a RLML caracal to prevent that from happening. There, we've kept one of the most densely populated regions in the game save from trollceptors, and it only costs us 1088 man hours per night!


Well, not really. You need response teams - which shouldn't be THAT big a deal for guys living in the area. It's not like it's an instant flip - you've got 8-38 minutes to get there and stomp them.

And every two kills you get, on average that's 80m isk Smile
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#104 - 2015-03-09 14:22:21 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:

Do not remove the potential for specific ship types that are able to penetrate into enemy space from using the module otherwise we'll just see blob heavy gatecamps and iron curtains around empty rental space.


I'm curious what the problem is with that.


Fozziebear wrote:
Goal #3: Minimize the systemic pressure to bring more people or larger ships than would be required to simply defeat your enemies on the field of battle.

Goal #4: Drastically reduce the time and effort required to conquer undefended space.

Goal #5: Provide significant strategic benefits from living in your space.

Goal #6: Spread the largest Sovereignty battles over multiple star systems to take advantage of New Eden’s varied geography and to better manage server load.


None of those things stop being true, whether CCP takes the necessary step to restrict frigates from using these modules or not.

Try again.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#105 - 2015-03-09 14:23:07 UTC
xttz wrote:
Arkon Olacar wrote:
The stats for the T1 module seem pretty good. The stats for the T2 version are completely off. 25km vs 250km, are you high?

The best way to determine who has grid control is by limiting the range on the module. If you've won the fight and have killed/chased off any fleet that actually poses a threat, why should you then give two ***** about some crap sitting 200km off? Restrict the range of the module to 25/30km (if not less), it forces you to slap your **** down on the ihub if you wish to RF it (which is only right).

You could potentially look at a speed reduction while the module is active (on top of the warping restriction). The key feature currently missing is risk - if you want to use the module, you should have to commit to it, and put assets at risk. Currently there is little risk if you can just kite while the 2 minutes run down and then warp off.


I'm curious to know if CCP have considered different sizes of Entosis Link. For example:

Small Entosis Link (frigates / destroyers): 25km-40km range
Medium Entosis Link (cruisers / BCs): 40km-75km range
Large Entosis Link (battleships): 75-125km range
XL Entosis Link (capitals): 125km+ range


While I wouldn't mind sized links, I think they need to be kept away from capitals - especially supercapitals - unless we want to end up witht he same N+1 supercaps meta we have today.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno
Kaylee Fonza
Purgatory Afterglow
#106 - 2015-03-09 14:23:40 UTC
Arkon Olacar wrote:
Jaro Essa wrote:
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
Trollceptors fundamentally don't fit the "effective control of the grid" argument. The things that can hit an orbiting snaked-out interceptor are few and far between and require very specific fits to counter, allowing a trollceptor to easily keep a link alive without effective control of the grid.

You won't have to kill the interceptor. With your own entosis link active on the structure or command node, no progress can be made towards the timer. Though, if you can't kill one interceptor, why should you have sov?.

Sure, but no progress in either direction would be made while both links were active. You just reach a stalemate, where your fleet is rendered useless by a single interceptor, burning at 7-8km/s at 100-150km. That's just dumb mechanics.


If the interceptor is flying at 100-150km, 1 celestis can make is useless.
Kale Freeman
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2015-03-09 14:24:21 UTC
What about ditching the whole Entosis link entirely. Make a Entosis deployable. It takes 10 minutes to come online. It needs to be deployed within 25/250km of the objective. Once it is online and there are no more enemy entosis deployables on grid the owner can right click it and instruct it to attack/hack the objective.
Acquisition Therapy
Doomheim
#108 - 2015-03-09 14:24:41 UTC
Fozzie,

It would be extremely helpful if you would lend us your current working ideas for specific fitting requirements i.e. cpu/pg and any rig changes the modules might impose, to both squash our trollceptor fears and also allow us to discuss what ships can fit it in your current design, and what else they can fit in addition to the link. Then meaningful and constructive feedback can begin on the link. Without it, its kind of like the wizard of oz telling us not to look behind the curtain.

Thanks for your hard work.
Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2015-03-09 14:24:52 UTC
Tora Bushido wrote:
Just disable reps and microwarps when using it. Then ship size would matter as much.


You need to disable ABs as well, or we'll from Trollceptors to Troll Phatasms

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#110 - 2015-03-09 14:24:52 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

If you can't bust a gatecamp in anything but the ludicrously overpowered interceptor hulls, what makes you think you deserve sov in the first place?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#111 - 2015-03-09 14:25:50 UTC
Kaylee Fonza wrote:
Arkon Olacar wrote:
Jaro Essa wrote:
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
Trollceptors fundamentally don't fit the "effective control of the grid" argument. The things that can hit an orbiting snaked-out interceptor are few and far between and require very specific fits to counter, allowing a trollceptor to easily keep a link alive without effective control of the grid.

You won't have to kill the interceptor. With your own entosis link active on the structure or command node, no progress can be made towards the timer. Though, if you can't kill one interceptor, why should you have sov?.

Sure, but no progress in either direction would be made while both links were active. You just reach a stalemate, where your fleet is rendered useless by a single interceptor, burning at 7-8km/s at 100-150km. That's just dumb mechanics.


If the interceptor is flying at 100-150km, 1 celestis can make is useless.

The interceptor disengages, and uses its superior agility and warp speed to move to another capturable object.

The celestis cannot keep up with an interceptor.

The ability for an interceptor to be countered while sitting at one beacon was never in question. The interceptor's ability to disengage and travel with impunity is the issue.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#112 - 2015-03-09 14:25:57 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:

Do not remove the potential for specific ship types that are able to penetrate into enemy space from using the module otherwise we'll just see blob heavy gatecamps and iron curtains around empty rental space.


I'm curious what the problem is with that.


Fozziebear wrote:
Goal #3: Minimize the systemic pressure to bring more people or larger ships than would be required to simply defeat your enemies on the field of battle.

Goal #4: Drastically reduce the time and effort required to conquer undefended space.

Goal #5: Provide significant strategic benefits from living in your space.

Goal #6: Spread the largest Sovereignty battles over multiple star systems to take advantage of New Eden’s varied geography and to better manage server load.


None of those things stop being true, whether CCP takes the necessary step to restrict frigates from using these modules or not.

Try again.


So how is camping a gate at chokes for 4 hours different from defending structures for 4 hours? How is that not the same overhead on the players?
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#113 - 2015-03-09 14:28:32 UTC
afkalt wrote:
So how is camping a gate at chokes for 4 hours different from defending structures for 4 hours? How is that not the same overhead on the players?

It allows actual PvP to occur. Interceptors are optimized, first and foremost, to AVOID PvP.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#114 - 2015-03-09 14:29:03 UTC
afkalt wrote:

So how is camping a gate at chokes for 4 hours different from defending structures for 4 hours? How is that not the same overhead on the players?


One is where you choose to be, one is where a poor mechanic forces you to be. You might not, but I still do value player choice and player freedom.

The people who value orbiting a button in a disposable frigate are already in faction warfare.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tora Bushido
The Marmite Mercenaries
BLACKFLAG.
#115 - 2015-03-09 14:29:51 UTC
Elenahina wrote:
Tora Bushido wrote:
Just disable reps and microwarps when using it. Then ship size would matter as much.


You need to disable ABs as well, or we'll from Trollceptors to Troll Phatasms
At least it easier to counter Smile We should not only be looking at what the attackers can do, but what options the defenders have to counter it. If you keep those in balance, you will have fun.

DELETE THE WEAK, ADAPT OR DIE !

Meta Gaming Level VII, Psycho Warfare Level X, Smack Talk Level VII.
John McCreedy
Eve Defence Force
#116 - 2015-03-09 14:29:59 UTC
Kale Freeman wrote:
What about ditching the whole Entosis link entirely. Make a Entosis deployable. It takes 10 minutes to come online. It needs to be deployed within 25/250km of the objective. Once it is online and there are no more enemy entosis deployables on grid the owner can right click it and instruct it to attack/hack the objective.




It would be an SBU by another name. Every sov holding alliance would anchor them on their structures, much as they do now with SBUs on every gate. We need a system that's balanced for both attacker and defender, not one or the other.

13 years and counting. Eve Defence Force is recruiting.
Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#117 - 2015-03-09 14:31:06 UTC
Tora Bushido wrote:
Elenahina wrote:
Tora Bushido wrote:
Just disable reps and microwarps when using it. Then ship size would matter as much.


You need to disable ABs as well, or we'll from Trollceptors to Troll Phatasms
At least it easier to counter Smile We should not only be looking at what the attackers can do, but what options the defenders have to counter it. If you keep those in balance, you will have fun.


Fair point.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno
rsantos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2015-03-09 14:31:29 UTC
Arkon Olacar wrote:
Jessy Andersteen wrote:
About the trollceptor. It's stupid. Ok, u can't kill the "trollceptor" but...

Remember: targeting range of the interceptor. Put a single Maulus, hyena,keres, rapier, huggin, razzu or a griffin on the field...

Bye bye trollceptor.

Trollceptor is a troll. Don't feed the troll.

Awesome.

Hero owns 98 systems in Catch, and 38 stations. We now need 136 mauluses to spend 4 hours a night sitting on an ihub/station. Except of course if these trollceptors have any kind of weapons, it can kill the maulus, so we partner them with a RLML caracal to prevent that from happening. There, we've kept one of the most densely populated regions in the game save from trollceptors, and it only costs us 1088 man hours per night!


If you can't muster 136 mauluses a night you own to much sov. As if quickly reshiping to a defense fleet would take 4 hours a day!
This beeing said by a 15K man alliance makes me puke! Sry no offense intended.
EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#119 - 2015-03-09 14:31:31 UTC
John McCreedy wrote:
Kale Freeman wrote:
What about ditching the whole Entosis link entirely. Make a Entosis deployable. It takes 10 minutes to come online. It needs to be deployed within 25/250km of the objective. Once it is online and there are no more enemy entosis deployables on grid the owner can right click it and instruct it to attack/hack the objective.




It would be an SBU by another name. Every sov holding alliance would anchor them on their structures, much as they do now with SBUs on every gate. We need a system that's balanced for both attacker and defender, not one or the other.

Well presumably it would have some kind of ship-level EHP, not millions, so it was relatively trivial to kill.
Samsara Toldya
Academy of Contradictory Behaviour
#120 - 2015-03-09 14:32:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Samsara Toldya
I don't get the "troll contesting".

Entosis Link is half part factional warfare farming (orbit an object for x minutes) and half part mining (activate module on object and watch its beam for x minutes).

While factional warfare farming and mining will give the pilot LP or ISK he won't earn a single penny contesting sov for teh lulz.

There seem to be a lot of wannabe-miners in nullsec if so many trolls are looking forward to do mining-like stuff in the future.
Running anomalies in a -0.1 sec system is "too low ISK/h!!!!!!!!!" but orbit an object without any ISK at all is worth doing it.

Sure some will be running around trolling for the first two weeks... but troll contesting won't pay your PLEX at the end of the month.

Are nullsec alliances already recruiting highsec miners to do the Entosis Link job?
Grab the most experienced "put beam on object... wait for x minutes... repeat" guys now or your enemy will do it!