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Can't believe Off Grid Boosting is still around. Srsly?

First post
Author
Budda Kuha
Buster Blade
#21 - 2015-03-08 22:11:18 UTC
Alice Saki wrote:
Small Gang NEED Offgb to be effective against larger Targets.


Small gangs shouldn't be effective against much larger gangs when brawling! They should be forced to use tactical wit instead of bluntly boosting their stats from off grid to make it look as if they accomplish something heroic. Besides: The larger the gang the higher the probability that they have a dedicated booster aswell. The whole ogb is necessary for small vs larger gang argument is null. More often than not ogb's are used by risk averse players to gain an advantage on top of their superior numbers.
Arla Sarain
#22 - 2015-03-08 22:11:34 UTC
Shiloh Templeton wrote:
Perhaps CCP should also get rid of blobs, hot drops, falcons, warping in alts, etc.


P.S. Almost forgot AFK cloaking.



Perhaps they should just get rid of OGB.
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#23 - 2015-03-08 22:11:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Budda Kuha wrote:
Furthermore the sheer existance of ogb penalizes players who like fast paced, spontanious and mobile pvp. It caters to risk-averse stationary pvp. For inherent logical reasons that decreases the total number of fights happening which equals to: bad for EVE pvp which equals to: Bad mechanic being bad for EVE. It's really as simple as that. The question remains: Why doesn't CCP take action?

If I can offer a counter argument to that, my experience is almost the opposite of what you are saying here.

Before I trained a links character I was reluctant to take fights outnumbered. But seeing how extensive the use of links is in lowsec, I trained a character up (pw. q1w2e3r4).

She is far from slow and static, though her Loki doesn't warp as fast as a frigate or a T1 cruiser when I roam. She is used to scout as well as provide links, so gives me eyes in 2 systems at once, providing more knowledge of what is happening around.

But mostly, having the links has allowed me to take more fights than I otherwise would because I will happily engage well outnumbered. 17:1 (17:2 including the links) is the largest fight I have taken on (I died of course, but took several down beforehand).

Links can move fast and promote anything but risk aversion. Fighting outnumbered creates good fights for everyone and has had flow on effects into other areas. When I began FCing, having taken on a lot of fights outnumbered on my own (as a player), I already had a relatively good skillset in selecting targets and identifying which to take down first. That has bought better fights to my corpmates too when we are in fleet, whether we are running links or not.

Would I really care if links were changed? Not really. I'm already training my links alt up to be on-grid at some point in the future, but links aren't a magic pill. Good piloting can still counter the benefit that someone else gains through links.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#24 - 2015-03-08 22:19:40 UTC
Interesting comments above. Even just giving links a weapons timer would go a long way.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Chopper Rollins
hahahlolspycorp
Brave Collective
#25 - 2015-03-08 22:20:51 UTC
I have scanned down and killed links strategic cruisers.
Also blapped away at ones sitting at edge of pos shield or on undock in lowsec.
Helped throw a squad of bombs at one pos-lurking links bc.
Best of all, some poor drinker fat-finger-warped his links loki to an ice belt and got it destroyed by four bait fit procurers.
There is risk to off-grid boosters.
You must supply it.





Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#26 - 2015-03-08 22:22:35 UTC
Alice Saki wrote:
Small Gang NEED Offgb to be effective against larger Targets.


No, you mean kiters need off grid boosts to be effective.

As to the OP, off grid boosting should be eliminated. For almost everything else that can contribute a measurable mechanical benefit to a fight, said asset must be on grid to do so. You cannot off grid logi, you cannot off grid ewar, and you cannot off grid tackle.

You should not be able to off grid boost. Period.

That said, CCP has stated several times that it not unwillingness to do so which holds them back, it is inability to do so. Meaning that they can't actually figure out how to implement it without causing excessive server load.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Lictas Alice
The Men Who Sold Worlds
#27 - 2015-03-08 22:23:00 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Budda Kuha wrote:
Furthermore the sheer existance of ogb penalizes players who like fast paced, spontanious and mobile pvp. It caters to risk-averse stationary pvp. For inherent logical reasons that decreases the total number of fights happening which equals to: bad for EVE pvp which equals to: Bad mechanic being bad for EVE. It's really as simple as that. The question remains: Why doesn't CCP take action?

If I can offer a counter argument to that, my experience is almost the opposite of what you are saying here.

Before I trained a links character I was reluctant to take fights outnumbered. But seeing how extensive the use of links is in lowsec, I trained a character up (pw. q1w2e3r4).

She is far from slow and static, though her Loki doesn't warp as fast as a frigate or a T1 cruiser when I roam. She is used to scout as well as provide links, so gives me eyes in 2 systems at once, providing more knowledge of what is happening around.

But mostly, having the links has allowed me to take more fights than I otherwise would because I will happily engage well outnumbered. 17:1 (17:2 including the links) is the largest fight I have taken on (I died of course, but took several down beforehand).

Links can move fast and promote anything but risk aversion. Fighting outnumbered creates good fights for everyone and has had flow on effects into other areas. When I began FCing, having taken on a lot of fights outnumbered on my own (as a player), I already had a relatively good skillset in selecting targets and identifying which to take down first. That has bought better fights to my corpmates too when we are in fleet, whether we are running links or not.

Would I really care if links were changed? Not really. I'm already training my links alt up to be on-grid at some point in the future, but links aren't a magic pill. Good piloting can still counter the benefit that someone else gains through links.



If it was only solo players vs larger gangs using links , i wouldn't mind. But in my experience , its usually people in faction ships/full set of implants/ with backup/ with links at a 100% safe place( generally FW zones). Or for example in HS , Sit a links boat in a NPC corp get a pretty safe advantage with no risk. It gives people another advantage that can't really be countered , which is why it should be changed.
Logi? Focus them . Ecm? Use eccm Neuts? Cap boosters/nos Links??
Alice Saki
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#28 - 2015-03-08 22:24:22 UTC
Budda Kuha wrote:
Alice Saki wrote:
Small Gang NEED Offgb to be effective against larger Targets.


Small gangs shouldn't be effective against much larger gangs when brawling! They should be forced to use tactical wit instead of bluntly boosting their stats from off grid to make it look as if they accomplish something heroic. Besides: The larger the gang the higher the probability that they have a dedicated booster aswell. The whole ogb is necessary for small vs larger gang argument is null. More often than not ogb's are used by risk averse players to gain an advantage on top of their superior numbers.



Rephrase.


Small SHIELD NANO GANGS NEED OFFGB to be effective againt larger targets.

The Alliance I just left, We used to fly to Goons home system Stir the Hornets nest with our 10 to 30 man gang

and Get Swarmed by up too 900 goonies xD

Without the Skirmish links providing Off Grid Boosting we'd all die in seconds.

FREEZE! Drop the LIKES AND WALK AWAY! - Currenly rebuilding gaming machine, I will Return.

Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#29 - 2015-03-08 22:29:16 UTC
Lictas Alice wrote:
But in my experience , its usually people in faction ships/full set of implants/ with backup/ with links at a 100% safe place( generally FW zones).

Where is your experience from that this is it?

There's a lot more use of links than faction ships and a set of implants for someone without links can also counter the links, the difference there being that links scale across the squad/wing/fleet where implants are individual. Particularly in lowsec, there is no greater risk to a pod than to a links ship (unless Santo or a copycat is around, but that can be avoided easily too).
Carrie-Anne Moss
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2015-03-08 22:29:43 UTC
Alice Saki wrote:
Budda Kuha wrote:
Alice Saki wrote:
Small Gang NEED Offgb to be effective against larger Targets.


Small gangs shouldn't be effective against much larger gangs when brawling! They should be forced to use tactical wit instead of bluntly boosting their stats from off grid to make it look as if they accomplish something heroic. Besides: The larger the gang the higher the probability that they have a dedicated booster aswell. The whole ogb is necessary for small vs larger gang argument is null. More often than not ogb's are used by risk averse players to gain an advantage on top of their superior numbers.



Rephrase.


Small SHIELD NANO GANGS NEED OFFGB to be effective againt larger targets.

The Alliance I just left, We used to fly to Goons home system Stir the Hornets nest with our 10 to 30 man gang

and Get Swarmed by up too 900 goonies xD

Without the Skirmish links providing Off Grid Boosting we'd all die in seconds.



Ummm dont you think 10-30 ships SHOULD DIE IN SECONDS to 900 ships?? Lol

The fact that 10-30 can last more than seconds against such odds is proof it is unlabanced.

And again, if you or anyone is agruing and saying OGB is good/should stay. You r wrong. Ccp said u are wrong. They just cant figure out how to code it, they want yo change it though just cant
Lictas Alice
The Men Who Sold Worlds
#31 - 2015-03-08 22:31:37 UTC
Alice Saki wrote:
Budda Kuha wrote:
Alice Saki wrote:
Small Gang NEED Offgb to be effective against larger Targets.


Small gangs shouldn't be effective against much larger gangs when brawling! They should be forced to use tactical wit instead of bluntly boosting their stats from off grid to make it look as if they accomplish something heroic. Besides: The larger the gang the higher the probability that they have a dedicated booster aswell. The whole ogb is necessary for small vs larger gang argument is null. More often than not ogb's are used by risk averse players to gain an advantage on top of their superior numbers.



Rephrase.


Small SHIELD NANO GANGS NEED OFFGB to be effective againt larger targets.

The Alliance I just left, We used to fly to Goons home system Stir the Hornets nest with our 10 to 30 man gang

and Get Swarmed by up too 900 goonies xD

Without the Skirmish links providing Off Grid Boosting we'd all die in seconds.


Without links i can't engage outnumbered because its actually the off grid , off kill mail links that gives me a big enough advantage too take ridiculous fights and do well.

This is why links need to be changed....
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#32 - 2015-03-08 22:34:35 UTC
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:
Ummm dont you think 10-30 ships SHOULD DIE IN SECONDS to 900 ships?? Lol

The fact that 10-30 can last more than seconds against such odds is proof it is unlabanced.

Haha, no.

Look at how many small gangs come to catch for good fights and end up against larger Brave fleets, or third-partying into fights you guys are having already.

Piloting skill means a lot more than links in those situations. Go and watch a couple of the Chessur videos on YouTube for good examples of that exact situation.

We used to do the same in Barlequet before you took sov. 200 in system and we would snipe with kiting rails fits and everyone had a great time (without links too).
Budda Kuha
Buster Blade
#33 - 2015-03-08 22:35:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Budda Kuha
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Budda Kuha wrote:
Furthermore the sheer existance of ogb penalizes players who like fast paced, spontanious and mobile pvp. It caters to risk-averse stationary pvp. For inherent logical reasons that decreases the total number of fights happening which equals to: bad for EVE pvp which equals to: Bad mechanic being bad for EVE. It's really as simple as that. The question remains: Why doesn't CCP take action?

If I can offer a counter argument to that, my experience is almost the opposite of what you are saying here.

Before I trained a links character I was reluctant to take fights outnumbered. But seeing how extensive the use of links is in lowsec, I trained a character up (pw. q1w2e3r4).

She is far from slow and static, though her Loki doesn't warp as fast as a frigate or a T1 cruiser when I roam. She is used to scout as well as provide links, so gives me eyes in 2 systems at once, providing more knowledge of what is happening around.

But mostly, having the links has allowed me to take more fights than I otherwise would because I will happily engage well outnumbered. 17:1 (17:2 including the links) is the largest fight I have taken on (I died of course, but took several down beforehand).

Links can move fast and promote anything but risk aversion. Fighting outnumbered creates good fights for everyone and has had flow on effects into other areas. When I began FCing, having taken on a lot of fights outnumbered on my own (as a player), I already had a relatively good skillset in selecting targets and identifying which to take down first. That has bought better fights to my corpmates too when we are in fleet, whether we are running links or not.

Would I really care if links were changed? Not really. I'm already training my links alt up to be on-grid at some point in the future, but links aren't a magic pill. Good piloting can still counter the benefit that someone else gains through links.



What about the players who don't run links? Many of them will be hesitant to engage at all since they will always be afraid that the incursus in that plex might be able to tank their gang due to that legion floating in space somewhere but not showing up on these embarrassing km's. Why do you even need links anyway? I fight 1vsmany most of the time and i have a lot of fun doing it. There are other ways than bluntly boosting your stats. kiting for instance. Don't you realize that this whole ogb thing is a huge turn off for casuals, newer players or generally anybody who doesn't want to run a second account? Shouldn't success in pvp be determined by tactical means and by what you actually throw in the ring (aka risking it)rather than by a boosting t3 or command ship which doesn't interact during the fight whatsoever? You sound reasonable so i'm really hoping that you understand that it's not about not having a link alt, I could easily afford one tbh but that wouldn't change the fact that for reasons stated above ogb's are a terrible mechanic.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#34 - 2015-03-08 22:36:34 UTC
Lictas Alice wrote:
If it was only solo players vs larger gangs using links , i wouldn't mind. But in my experience , its usually people in faction ships/full set of implants/ with backup/ with links at a 100% safe place( generally FW zones). Or for example in HS , Sit a links boat in a NPC corp get a pretty safe advantage with no risk. It gives people another advantage that can't really be countered , which is why it should be changed.
Logi? Focus them . Ecm? Use eccm Neuts? Cap boosters/nos Links??

Neutral links being on grid in highsec wouldn't affect them in any way whatsoever, they'd still not be legal targets.

If you wanted to change how links are employed in highsec you'd have to mess with crimewatch.

If you really want to open up that particular can of worms again that's fine by me, I mean they did such a great job last time.
Lictas Alice
The Men Who Sold Worlds
#35 - 2015-03-08 22:42:03 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Lictas Alice wrote:
But in my experience , its usually people in faction ships/full set of implants/ with backup/ with links at a 100% safe place( generally FW zones).

Where is your experience from that this is it?

There's a lot more use of links than faction ships and a set of implants for someone without links can also counter the links, the difference there being that links scale across the squad/wing/fleet where implants are individual. Particularly in lowsec, there is no greater risk to a pod than to a links ship (unless Santo or a copycat is around, but that can be avoided easily too).


uh , pretty much any faction warfare zones?From being in faction warfare on this acc/alts for years. I can understand why people do this. It's simple. They wanted the biggest advantage , so there killed board looks impressive.

I recently went into null , I was in a AB fit incursus. I landed in a bubble 120kms away from a Sivipul / orthus , The orthus burned at me going 5k/ms . Somehow i managed too scram him w/o links , w/o a t2 point. This really shouldn't of happened. I killed his 500m faction fit kite boat in a ab inc..When i checked his killboard, it was a hell of alot more impressive then mine something like 2k kills 100 losses, but his piloting skills were on par with a 2month old char.

My point is , People want the biggest advantage , Numbers , rr , logi , implants ect. Which is fine , But links cant really be countered. If there was actually some risk when using link boats/ they were on killmails , it would be a much nicer place.

Alice Saki
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#36 - 2015-03-08 22:43:53 UTC
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:
Alice Saki wrote:
Budda Kuha wrote:
Alice Saki wrote:
Small Gang NEED Offgb to be effective against larger Targets.


Small gangs shouldn't be effective against much larger gangs when brawling! They should be forced to use tactical wit instead of bluntly boosting their stats from off grid to make it look as if they accomplish something heroic. Besides: The larger the gang the higher the probability that they have a dedicated booster aswell. The whole ogb is necessary for small vs larger gang argument is null. More often than not ogb's are used by risk averse players to gain an advantage on top of their superior numbers.



Rephrase.


Small SHIELD NANO GANGS NEED OFFGB to be effective againt larger targets.

The Alliance I just left, We used to fly to Goons home system Stir the Hornets nest with our 10 to 30 man gang

and Get Swarmed by up too 900 goonies xD

Without the Skirmish links providing Off Grid Boosting we'd all die in seconds.



Ummm dont you think 10-30 ships SHOULD DIE IN SECONDS to 900 ships?? Lol

The fact that 10-30 can last more than seconds against such odds is proof it is unlabanced.

And again, if you or anyone is agruing and saying OGB is good/should stay. You r wrong. Ccp said u are wrong. They just cant figure out how to code it, they want yo change it though just cant



Only if you get caught, thats the Magic of OGB ;)

FREEZE! Drop the LIKES AND WALK AWAY! - Currenly rebuilding gaming machine, I will Return.

Lictas Alice
The Men Who Sold Worlds
#37 - 2015-03-08 22:44:33 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Lictas Alice wrote:
If it was only solo players vs larger gangs using links , i wouldn't mind. But in my experience , its usually people in faction ships/full set of implants/ with backup/ with links at a 100% safe place( generally FW zones). Or for example in HS , Sit a links boat in a NPC corp get a pretty safe advantage with no risk. It gives people another advantage that can't really be countered , which is why it should be changed.
Logi? Focus them . Ecm? Use eccm Neuts? Cap boosters/nos Links??

Neutral links being on grid in highsec wouldn't affect them in any way whatsoever, they'd still not be legal targets.

If you wanted to change how links are employed in highsec you'd have to mess with crimewatch.

If you really want to open up that particular can of worms again that's fine by me, I mean they did such a great job last time.


I know , i kinda hinted at that a few posts earlier. If they can't implement on grid links , i am pretty sure theres other things they could do. Links on kilmails would be great , all those 'solo' pilots that need links to win would be exposed and probbably stop using them
Blusterby Diggenploof FOODIE
Cause For Concern
#38 - 2015-03-08 22:44:39 UTC
Why not make it this way. Off grid boosters while boosting can't use gates or warp due to command links on and boom fixed.
Alice Saki
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#39 - 2015-03-08 22:46:34 UTC
Blusterby Diggenploof FOODIE wrote:
Why not make it this way. Off grid boosters while boosting can't use gates or warp due to command links on and boom fixed.



This I could live with xD

FREEZE! Drop the LIKES AND WALK AWAY! - Currenly rebuilding gaming machine, I will Return.

Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2015-03-08 22:57:40 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Alice Saki wrote:
Small Gang NEED Offgb to be effective against larger Targets.


No, you mean kiters need off grid boosts to be effective.

As to the OP, off grid boosting should be eliminated. For almost everything else that can contribute a measurable mechanical benefit to a fight, said asset must be on grid to do so. You cannot off grid logi, you cannot off grid ewar, and you cannot off grid tackle.

You should not be able to off grid boost. Period.

That said, CCP has stated several times that it not unwillingness to do so which holds them back, it is inability to do so. Meaning that they can't actually figure out how to implement it without causing excessive server load.

This.

I may add that any mechanic which forces players to multibox a 2nd account is bad and has to be changed. In fleet we have logi pilots, we have ewar pilots but we don't have ogb pilots for obvious reasons.

I'm my own NPC alt.