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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

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Daniel Westelius
Shadow State
Goonswarm Federation
#3141 - 2015-03-06 17:23:57 UTC
Dark Spite wrote:
Daniel Westelius wrote:


Oh dear ignorant Eli Apol,
Let's say that one of the major alliances/coalitions loses a handful of systems on the edge of their territory because they cannot respond quick enough.
What happens next? The answer? Nothing.
Most of the major alliances/coalitions have consolidated their space after the Phoebe expansion, what you will have now are wasteland systems.
Systems that are a bit too far to respond to quickly and defend, but close enough that no small alliance can move in without getting wiped out rather quickly.
So I guess congratulations are in order ! You just created wasteland systems ! Such content ! Much wow !


Not so sure who is the ignorant one here. Have you actually left the TNT pockets in Deklein and Tribute and seen the wasteland that already exists in nullsec and even cfc space??? And its even worse elsewhere. The wasteland has been created by the large coalitions and what he says here drives conflict, maybe even in areas players actually could be bothered to travel to.


I know there is wasteland already, this will create even more wasteland.
You, like Eli Apol, seem to somehow miss the obvious. What drives conflict are incentives. Changing how sov is taken does NOT incentivize taking space. The only thing that can do that is to make null sec worth something, and currently, it's not worth much.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#3142 - 2015-03-06 17:24:51 UTC
Gospadin wrote:
Instead of using your own entosis link to pause his capture, just sensor damp him so he loses lock, and the whole thing should reset back to zero, right?

Nope, it remains at it's captured percentage unless the defenders get a link of their own on grid, remove the attacking link and push it back down - it will also remain like this beyond the primetime if nothing is done about it.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#3143 - 2015-03-06 17:25:45 UTC
Daniel Westelius wrote:
I know there is wasteland already, this will create even more wasteland.
You, like Eli Apol, seem to somehow miss the obvious. What drives conflict are incentives. Changing how sov is taken does NOT incentivize taking space. The only thing that can do that is to make null sec worth something, and currently, it's not worth much.

So now you've got Freeport stations all around your busy PvE systems....can you see where this is going?

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#3144 - 2015-03-06 17:27:13 UTC
Daniel Westelius wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
What you are proposing is stagnation even worse than we have now: if I, as a small alliance, take a roaming gang through a WH during prime time to Catch looking for "good fights" or ratter ganks, nothing stops someone else from setting a bunch of horrible timers that anyone can third party.

Why do you need to take your fleet through a WH to catch for pewpew during your primetime?

Go put a simple highslot module on your neighbour's structure and make them come out and play with you whilst still remaining within defensive range of your own space.

If they don't come out to play you make the system neutral and might get better neighbours move in afterwards.


Oh dear ignorant Eli Apol,
Let's say that one of the major alliances/coalitions loses a handful of systems on the edge of their territory because they cannot respond quick enough.
What happens next? The answer? Nothing.
Most of the major alliances/coalitions have consolidated their space after the Phoebe expansion, what you will have now are wasteland systems.
Systems that are a bit too far to respond to quickly and defend, but close enough that no small alliance can move in without getting wiped out rather quickly.
So I guess congratulations are in order ! You just created wasteland systems ! Such content ! Much wow !


What I don't get is how people can't see tings like this coming.

In a game where people (hell the same people who make up the coalitions) go to high sec and blow expensive ships up for nothing but lulz (not even profit), some folks think that the coalitions are not only going to fall, but that somehow they will be powerless to prevent "small alliances" from taking sov in systems the coalitions can't defend?

Sigh.

This is what I said in earlier parts of this thread. The problem is that some people are unrealistically optimistic. And one thing I know about such people is that they have a hard time putting themselves in other (less optimistic, more opportunistic) type people.

What's really going to happen is that the coalitions are going to let people come in and take sov and plant ihubs. Then the coalitions are going to kill those. Or threaten to kill those. And if you don't pay a monthly fee...lets call it RENT even if we know it's actually 'extortion'...that coalition is going to jump 40 jumps every month to destroy their assets again and again until they say $%^& it and go back to high/low/WH space.

Those coalitions will protect the few systems they need to protect, and extort rent out the rest. Nothing will change, and people are going to get sick to death of me linking them this thread over and over.
Daniel Westelius
Shadow State
Goonswarm Federation
#3145 - 2015-03-06 17:31:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniel Westelius
Eli Apol wrote:
Daniel Westelius wrote:
Oh dear ignorant Eli Apol,
Let's say that one of the major alliances/coalitions loses a handful of systems on the edge of their territory because they cannot respond quick enough.
What happens next? The answer? Nothing.
Most of the major alliances/coalitions have consolidated their space after the Phoebe expansion, what you will have now are wasteland systems.
Systems that are a bit too far to respond to quickly and defend, but close enough that no small alliance can move in without getting wiped out rather quickly.
So I guess congratulations are in order ! You just created wasteland systems ! Such content ! Much wow !

Ad hominem apart, you're admitting there will now be gaps in the donut for people to attempt to take sov without requiring supercaps?

And that the blocs will consolidate down into systems they actively use where they can keep the indices high and maintain a constant vigil themselves?

I've admitted from the start that the blocs will still throw their weight around but how many new mini alliances are going to appear in all these little patches of black that we can look forwards to?

Are some of the rental alliances going to do this as well since they don't need your supercap protection anymore?

What about your other big neighbours who will probably look at the map and define very similar areas as yourself when looking for somewhere for a condensed empire to reside now that sprawling ones are so susceptible to trololololing?

What's the difference between a wasteland with a flag in it and a wasteland without a flag in it?


It was more stating fact than Ad Hominem, but take it as you like.
Secondly, you are cherry picking from my comment, good job.
You addressed the wasteland aspect of my comment (not in a coherent manner but to each his own) and then proceed to ignore the part where I state that no one will live in those empty pockets.
If you think the established alliances will allow any small alliance to grab a foothold anywhere near their space you really are being delusional.
As I said previously, there might be wasteland right now, but this will only create more wasteland.
Torgeir Hekard
I MYSELF AND ME
#3146 - 2015-03-06 17:33:14 UTC
Gospadin wrote:

Instead of using your own entosis link to pause his capture, just sensor damp him so he loses lock, and the whole thing should reset back to zero, right?

1) It's not given that active entosis ships will be susceptible to ewar. Might be like bastion. Then again, might be like hictors.
2) It's paused, not reset.
Redbull Spai
Twenty Questions
#3147 - 2015-03-06 17:38:16 UTC
T2 is supposed to provide a small but noticiable bonus over T1. Not 10 TIMES the power.

Also, both types of link should be restricted to BS or higher. Possibly BC+, but no lower. Eve needs battleships returning to the fore, the recent tiericide buffed T1 cruisers, frigs, HACs, industrials, mining barges,interceptors - but gave nothing but hate to battleships (slower warp speed, no protection from inties using bubbles, far more expensive - three times the cost in the case of Phoons and Domis, no extra abilities for tier 2 BS's even though tier 2 cruisers/frigs got huge extra bonuses, no extra mid/lowslots, no extra cargobays, no extra warp strength, ect). Also dreadnoughts need a buff too, thier primary purpose was always as the main sov-capturing ship when sov depended on POS's but now they seem out on a limb.

I'd put this suggestion forward, for entosis link capture time:

Battle Ship - Standard Speed

Battlecruiser, Carrier, Super, Titan - 1/3 Speed

Dread Nought - Double Speed
Jenshae Chiroptera
#3148 - 2015-03-06 17:39:05 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
But there is no furnace in this set-up, there are no Armageddon battles, just a wet depressing fart-sound as the air goes out. Its just all something of an anticlimax.
Not to mention the inherent satisfaction of shooting their structures; being gone.

"I wave my magic wand at you! Appear and fight me scoundrel!"
"No thanks. You are the 1000th guy with a wand this week. Already moved most of my things to stations that can't be magic'ed away."

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3149 - 2015-03-06 17:39:18 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
For only 5 ISK a day, you can help sponsor Special Eddie.

Eddie was diagnosed with Entosis at the age of five, after his parents noticed they were unable to hold his attention for more than 5 minutes at a time. Initially, from two months of age, his parents suspected that Eddie suffered from ADHD or Asperger's Syndrome, but Ritalin did nothing to improve his condition.

He is currently fifteen years old and suffers from late-stage Entosis, characterized by sporadic responsiveness, usually within a four-hour window each evening. Eddie requires occasional laser treatment to restore his basic bodily functions.

Eddie also requires dialysis.


Poor Eddie. Cry
I feel bad for the lil bee.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#3150 - 2015-03-06 17:40:37 UTC
The coalitions aren't going to die, no-one afaik has even hinted at that, shrink and condense, definitely, fracture, perhaps.

Goons go to highsec to gank unarmed carebears because they have to jump 40 jumps to find content in null so it's easier to just use their gankalyst alt to find some easy pewpew (and they make outrageous profits from some of it, never believe they don't).

As they'll probably only hold systems with high indices from high activity, that leaves busy systems with ships regularly undocked PvEing right next to neutral systems potentially with freeport stations available - for absolutely any merc or hostile force to use for staging regular pvp roams into nullbear wonderland next door.

Now a sensible PvP group will flip that station/system to be their own, ie have their own tiny bit of sov right next to their borders so that whichever Blue Donut Alliance it is has to subsequently capture it twice over a period of 8 days to lock them away from their ships...at which point it's now a weakly held Blue Donut system... which will get flipped.... which means the PvPers have their staging system again... ad infinitum....

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Daniel Westelius
Shadow State
Goonswarm Federation
#3151 - 2015-03-06 17:41:11 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Daniel Westelius wrote:
I know there is wasteland already, this will create even more wasteland.
You, like Eli Apol, seem to somehow miss the obvious. What drives conflict are incentives. Changing how sov is taken does NOT incentivize taking space. The only thing that can do that is to make null sec worth something, and currently, it's not worth much.

So now you've got Freeport stations all around your busy PvE systems....can you see where this is going?


I can't be bothered to keep responding to such ignorant comments, so this will probably be the last.
The stations are only Freeport for a 48 hour period. Unless you expect the new owners to set it as a Freeport and also assume that the established alliances will let it remain as such.
Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3152 - 2015-03-06 17:43:55 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:


Dead serious, Goons or NC. Could get the 70 guys, but my alliance wouldnt be able to. Hell, back when I was in INK when i first got out of highsec we couldnt pry people away from their anoms long enough to run vanguards.

Small alliances wouldnt be able to fght off an incusion.


That's not entirely true - choosing not to fight off an incursion because of :reasons: is not the same as lacking the ability to do so.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#3153 - 2015-03-06 17:44:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
Daniel Westelius wrote:
I can't be bothered to keep responding to such ignorant comments, so this will probably be the last.
The stations are only Freeport for a 48 hour period. Unless you expect the new owners to set it as a Freeport and also assume that the established alliances will let it remain as such.

Please see post above, PvPers will be able to take sov right under your noses and give themselves a staging post on a week by week basis right next to your PvE hubs.

If you take away the Freeport status, they just flip it straight back again - or the one next door - or the one next door but one - or all of the ones around your whole border every week.

Sov won't just be held by carebears, you can get mercs taking and holding it on a completely impermanent basis without whelping a supercap fleet every time.

(btw HI BL/PL :D)

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Arrendis
TK Corp
#3154 - 2015-03-06 17:49:31 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
And if you don't pay a monthly fee...lets call it RENT even if we know it's actually 'extortion'...


Really, when has rent ever been anything else? 'Give me money or I kick you out of where you live'. Much as the sov discussion, ownership of land/buildings/territory is ever really just a tug-of-war between those who use that space, and those who demand money to not prevent its use.
Blackfangg
A Line of Descent
#3155 - 2015-03-06 17:50:01 UTC
I still think this mechanic will be a good thing for null sov but it will take work to be perfect, and CCP knows that. Thats why we get the dev blog 4 months beforehand and two weeks before Fanfest. So everyone can discuss it and throw our opinions on the forums. Whatever you may believe CCP does try to listen, even if Fozzie can be a little hard headed hes still taking a chance and making a change to the current broken system, and that takes some balls, respect.

And obviously this isnt a patch note, its a dev blog, so I believe theres a good chance 50% of this stuff will change based on feedback from us and CSM. CCP doesnt want to kill EVE, this game makes sure their families stay warm in the Iceland winters, and makes it so their kids can go to bed with a full stomach. I'd think they'd really rather keep in going.

BUT, there are some changes I hope happen:

#1: Make the initial time needed ELinking to start the RF longer. (IMO somewhere around 30mins for unused sov to 1hr for high index systems.)

#1.5: Make ELinks unable to be fit to anything smaller than a Cruiser.

#2: Keep the PrimeTZ mechanic to a degree, but expand it. (My opinion: 12 hours, to allow for some degree of X-Timezone play.)

#3: Make ownership of a Ihub or TCU give a bonus of 10-15% to moon goo harvest remove the fuel bonus, this gives a reason to hold sov. without too big of a bonus (But enough to fight for)

#3.5: Also require sov for building of Supercapital ships?

#4: Spawning 5 command nodes at a time might be too much, consider doing 2 nodes at +0 hours, 3 at +1hrs, 5 at +3hrs, then continue increasing as you already have planned it too.

#5: Have kills by your corp/alliance affect Military Index, and players making items affect the Industry Index.

#6: ELinks should either negatively affect your DPS/Range/Speed, or be quite expensive (200mil-750mil) so idiots dont fly around RFing everyone for the lulz.

#7: Instead of #1 or #5 you could make TCUs and IHubs have guns, the higher the Index the better CPU/PG your SovStructure has. Maybe allow all POS modules to fit TCUs and IHUBs. This would allow small pirate fleets to harrass underused space or conquer empty space easily, but would require decent numbers to affect a large active alliance that actually uses their space.

#8: Make Development Index Level degrade over time, 1 level for every week the system doesnt hit a certain quota (XX Billion ISK in bounties/ XX m3 of Ore/ Strategic could be tricky, maybe a certain # of JB jumps (Stupid) or maybe this one should just stay the same.)

#9: For initial Command Node fight, after RF but before Freeport, only the alliance that RF'd the structure should be able to ELink it. Its should be a 1 side vs 1 side fight with allies helping blap stuff only. That way you can still kill renters while keeping a fair system.

#10: Give BS/BC an edge in this, maybe a 50% reduction in cycle time for ELinks after the first one? So they have a chance for someone else to ELink it while they coast out of link mode to recieve RRs? Thereby making them inherently useful again! Yay!

These are just thoughts, as I understand a lot of this stuff will change anyways. If anyone from CCP actually reads this, please know that I think you are doing a good job and to Fozzie, Respect. Takes some courage to uproot the entire way of life for NulSec, and honestly anythings better than Structure Grinds. (Even module grinds) just listen to the players that arn't bitching and youll do well.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#3156 - 2015-03-06 17:50:58 UTC
Daniel Westelius wrote:
The stations are only Freeport for a 48 hour period. Unless you expect the new owners to set it as a Freeport and also assume that the established alliances will let it remain as such.


No, Daniel, he's suggesting that the equilibrium resting state of those stations will be ownerless, because whenever someone comes in and claims it, we'll just burn it down again.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#3157 - 2015-03-06 17:52:42 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
The coalitions aren't going to die, no-one afaik has even hinted at that, shrink and condense, definitely, fracture, perhaps.

Goons go to highsec to gank unarmed carebears because they have to jump 40 jumps to find content in null so it's easier to just use their gankalyst alt to find some easy pewpew (and they make outrageous profits from some of it, never believe they don't).


THERE it is. The bias underlying the unreasonable point of view. You think thatpeople are so bored that THAT makes them take the time to make ganking alts?

They aren't bored when they do that, that's who they ARE. And who they are are the people who are going to crush any 'small guys' who come in, just because they can.

Quote:

As they'll probably only hold systems with high indices from high activity, that leaves busy systems with ships regularly undocked PvEing right next to neutral systems potentially with freeport stations available - for absolutely any merc or hostile force to use for staging regular pvp roams into nullbear wonderland next door.

Now a sensible PvP group will flip that station/system to be their own, ie have their own tiny bit of sov right next to their borders so that whichever Blue Donut Alliance it is has to subsequently capture it twice over a period of 8 days to lock them away from their ships...at which point it's now a weakly held Blue Donut system... which will get flipped.... which means the PvPers have their staging system again... ad infinitum....


Bookmarked. See you in july lol.
davet517
Raata Invicti
#3158 - 2015-03-06 17:53:39 UTC
Daniel Westelius wrote:

You, like Eli Apol, seem to somehow miss the obvious. What drives conflict are incentives. Changing how sov is taken does NOT incentivize taking space. The only thing that can do that is to make null sec worth something, and currently, it's not worth much.


I disagree with this. The reason that dominion mechanics are played out is because we've reached a state of "mutually assured destruction". Anyone who is smaller than a coalition has no incentive to attempt to take space now because doing so requires putting an expensive fleet on the field that will just be steamrolled by one of the coalitions. Even the coalitions themselves go to great lengths these days to avoid engaging each other in order to avoid another B-R. Null sec is worth as much as it ever was. It's just not accessible anymore unless you are a coalition with hundreds of supers at your disposal.

i also disagree that economic incentive is the sole reason for war. Friction is the reason for war. If the purpose of living in 0.0 was to make isk, everyone could make more isk if we'd all just cooperate. Competition for resources is a source of friction, but it's not the only source, and certainly not the dominant force in Eve's history. Ideological friction has been, going all the way back to the advocates of "free space" and those opposed to that idea, through BoB and those who hated BoB, Goons, Russians, and whomever is perceived to be the "elitist *******" or gratuitous griefer du jour.

Making contesting sov more accessible (i.e. not requiring fielding supers to do so) will increase friction. Friction is good.
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#3159 - 2015-03-06 17:53:40 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Daniel Westelius wrote:
I know there is wasteland already, this will create even more wasteland.
You, like Eli Apol, seem to somehow miss the obvious. What drives conflict are incentives. Changing how sov is taken does NOT incentivize taking space. The only thing that can do that is to make null sec worth something, and currently, it's not worth much.

So now you've got Freeport stations all around your busy PvE systems....can you see where this is going?


theyre only busy pve systems because someone paid and put in the ihub upgrades, in spamming the reinforcement timers and making the null sec alliance there say "f**k this", they go chill in the nearest NPC null, whilst the ihubs die and the station goes free port for 48 hours (yes ONLY 48 hours not permanently)

if you capture the station then cool u can set it free port but after that? ohh i guess you can enjoy the Pve around the little pocket right? yah wrong! You need ihub upgrades to make space (even good truesec space) worthwhile. so now its wasteland too because you have no ihub and zero upgrades.. you failed to grasp the logistics of what you were getting into.

:golfclap:
Erien Rand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3160 - 2015-03-06 17:54:56 UTC
The entosis mod should only be able to be fitted to command ships or at a minimum battle cruisers. They have the command and control suites as well so it makes sense from a role-play perspective as well.

This makes the attacker commit to at least having a semi-serious fleet(s) while keeping the costs of mounting an attack fairly reasonable.

The idea of interceptor fleets running around griefing all day every day seems a bit ridiculous.