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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

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M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#3081 - 2015-03-06 14:42:11 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Can not "contained" sansha incursion drop sov ?
If you did not care to stop the incursion ....


Its difficult to get the people together to finish off an incursion. Killing the mothership especially is hard, about 70 people required, and a good incursion FC and competent logi besides.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#3082 - 2015-03-06 14:42:57 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Can not "contained" sansha incursion drop sov ?
If you did not care to stop the incursion ....


Its difficult to get the people together to finish off an incursion. Killing the mothership especially is hard, about 70 people required, and a good incursion FC and competent logi besides.



I do not know if you serious or joking. But if you are serious.. you are implying that 0.0 people are unable to match high sec level of organization?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#3083 - 2015-03-06 14:44:05 UTC
Schluffi Schluffelsen wrote:
Blackfangg wrote:
....
BlackFangg


Good write up, but it's all theoretical. Even in an active alliance that covers a lot of of TZs, you won't have players around each time somebody's seriously trying to troll you and your sov. As Vigilanta pointed out, let's say a certain medium-large 0.0 entity owns between 20-30 systems. That means at least 20 ihubs + 20 tcus + let's say 5 stations, so 45 sov structures. Only a handful of these systems are going to be maxed out, many of them (due to a lot of bad truesec systems) are going to be fast grinds. So let's say a gang decides to come with inties in your worst TZ - picking at your sov structures. You need to dock up all your stuff, reship, go after them, they'll still be able to cover more ground than you do (because they're the attackers and pre-setup) and end up reinforcing a lot of structures before you can chase them off. Now you have to deal with up to 450 fun nodes to be taken care of in your prime time. And this will take time, now let's count in the hostiles return with a ceptor gang or a WH group is trying to get some kills out of you - you're all spread out trying to cover as many nodes as possible.

So even with a more than serious attempt to actually take your sov, you need to spend most of your prime time to cover this. Every goddamn time. So while certain 0.0 profession make comparable income (especially when considering alts), the new influx of CTAs, roaming marauders, the usual cloaky campers and constant pvp shenanigans- the actual time you can spend to pay for your fun down there drops a lot. Plus you're putting a reasonable amount of ISKs at risk in stations that can be flipped (even faster now and with the risk of enemies playing station games and bubbling the hell out if it), multiple shiptypes that need to be stored etc. Then I'd rather live in a WH and pick my own fights or drop an alt in FW in lowsec - at least I don't have to live in that craphole then.

Now 0.0 entities will adapt, probably dropping sov in the outer regions of their empires to only "claim" sov where they need absolutely need to have their ihubs and tower boni. But does this mean that 0.0 gets more crowded, get a new influx of new players trying to grab space? Probably the first weeks, until they get trolled by usual guys and decide to move out or join up another coalition to get help or at least one or two secured borders. There'll be vast regions of unclaimed sov space but I don't see any major power shifts.

I'm just saying - this system has it perks but also devastating cons - it won't break up the blue donut, nor will it break up coalitions. It actually encourages people to keep the blue setting to secure home borders, split up rich regions and guard their territory. Numbers are still the primary source of power, grinding will be even more part of the 0.0 life - now we just exchanged HP grinding for mere time spent activating a high slot module.

The primary reason for alliances to fold is burn out and low morale, especially when all you need to do is grind all day. I don't think it should be encouraging to do this, but rather promote smaller 0.0 entities that don't need backup of their partners, so many decent proposals were made the past weeks, just incorporate them into this.


Nothign personal. But please go back and READ the dev blog. You got all the mechanics WRONG.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Schluffi Schluffelsen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3084 - 2015-03-06 14:52:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Schluffi Schluffelsen
Eli Apol wrote:
Schluffi Schluffelsen wrote:
many of them (due to a lot of bad truesec systems) are going to be fast grinds.
So why do they bother holding them at all if they're not using them? If they're worthless then why have they stuck a flag in it and why would they care about losing that flag?

Schluffi Schluffelsen wrote:
they'll still be able to cover more ground than you do (because they're the attackers and pre-setup) and end up reinforcing a lot of structures before you can chase them off.
Nope, they need at least 10 minutes with the grid to themselves AFTER their initial 2 minute cycle times and that's for a system with zero indices that you weren't using anyways. If you're using it then these invulnerable interceptors (with no tank or combat ability or incoming RR) have to remain on grid for 42 minutes minimum.



Hey Mr. Wormhole, funny to see you typing in capital letters now you've understood that 2 minute cycle time thingy. Congrats!

You're happy talking in here while having no clue about the actual day-to-day life in a 0.0 alliance. Just because a system doesn't get used that much doesn't mean it's unoccupied, some systems in constellations are just totally rubbish or used as backup on prime time / weekends when a lot of players are online. Additionally people do tend to have private lives, alliances have activity fluctuations over their TZs and to swarm out everytime a group appears and picks at systems isn't viable or it'll burn you out. 42 minutes is for a totally maxed out system (you can count these on one hand in most alliances) - all other systems will be around 15-30 minutes.

So I don't see the huge benefits of the new system because it doesn't really tackle the biggest issues of 0.0 atm. It'll lead to more dead space and the death of supercaps and dreads. Congratz. And nerfing the lure of 0.0, too.
lilol' me
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#3085 - 2015-03-06 14:59:05 UTC
right are you guys stupid? they won't drop.sov because they will do as they do now just rent the space out!! nothing changes large alliances do nothing but sit back and make billions just because they have a massive supercap fleet. that's the problem that needs to be sorted.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#3086 - 2015-03-06 15:02:00 UTC
Schluffi Schluffelsen wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Schluffi Schluffelsen wrote:
many of them (due to a lot of bad truesec systems) are going to be fast grinds.
So why do they bother holding them at all if they're not using them? If they're worthless then why have they stuck a flag in it and why would they care about losing that flag?

Schluffi Schluffelsen wrote:
they'll still be able to cover more ground than you do (because they're the attackers and pre-setup) and end up reinforcing a lot of structures before you can chase them off.
Nope, they need at least 10 minutes with the grid to themselves AFTER their initial 2 minute cycle times and that's for a system with zero indices that you weren't using anyways. If you're using it then these invulnerable interceptors (with no tank or combat ability or incoming RR) have to remain on grid for 42 minutes minimum.



Hey Mr. Wormhole, funny to see you typing in capital letters now you've understood that 2 minute cycle time thingy. Congrats!

You're happy talking in here while having no clue about the actual day-to-day life in a 0.0 alliance. Just because a system doesn't get used that much doesn't mean it's unoccupied, some systems in constellations are just totally rubbish or used as backup on prime time / weekends when a lot of players are online. Additionally people so tend to have private lives, alliances have activity fluctuations over their TZs and to swarm out everytime a group appears and picks at systems isn't viable or it'll burn you out. 42 minutes is for a totally maxed out system (you can count these on one hand in most alliances) - all other systems will be around 15-30 minutes.

Now you just take a group of 30-50 people in the right ships and lay waste to an alliance that's not in their proper TZ, this will be enough to reinforce enough or even camp their stations because these players will be scattered over systems in PVE ships with no FC around. And I did talk about the probable reaction of most 0.0 entities in the long run and what is the most convenient way to tackle this new system - and if you look at most 0.0 residents, they usually choose the most convenient way.

So I don't see the huge benefits of the new system because it doesn't really tackle the biggest issues of 0.0 atm. It'll lead to more dead space and the death of supercaps and dreads. Congratz.

Respectfully, people in other areas of space are quite capable of reading the dev blogs and understanding them, as any other person, many have read through multiple times to pick up on the finer points.

Whilst people in other areas, may not have the deep understanding of current mechanics, as this is a completely new Sov, one can see just as well the advantages and otherwise of this system.

It may not compare to the current environment as it is changing it, totally. And the current use of space, size and distribution of alliances, and whether renters continue to be an income source, is something we will see in the months ahead.

The reason is, that CCP are giving nullsec tools that allow nullsec to decide their own future and destiny, other than a role as pieces on a chessboard, played by the powerful. This is different in that there is no predestined outcome, and in hindsight, we can see that was the only realistic outcome with dominion.

You may choose to return to that or be more independent, the thing is, you now have a choice.
You have no future but the one you create for yourself. A frightening concept, but the only one people should embrace.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#3087 - 2015-03-06 15:03:09 UTC
Schluffi Schluffelsen wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Schluffi Schluffelsen wrote:
many of them (due to a lot of bad truesec systems) are going to be fast grinds.
So why do they bother holding them at all if they're not using them? If they're worthless then why have they stuck a flag in it and why would they care about losing that flag?

Schluffi Schluffelsen wrote:
they'll still be able to cover more ground than you do (because they're the attackers and pre-setup) and end up reinforcing a lot of structures before you can chase them off.
Nope, they need at least 10 minutes with the grid to themselves AFTER their initial 2 minute cycle times and that's for a system with zero indices that you weren't using anyways. If you're using it then these invulnerable interceptors (with no tank or combat ability or incoming RR) have to remain on grid for 42 minutes minimum.



Hey Mr. Wormhole, funny to see you typing in capital letters now you've understood that 2 minute cycle time thingy. Congrats!

You're happy talking in here while having no clue about the actual day-to-day life in a 0.0 alliance. Just because a system doesn't get used that much doesn't mean it's unoccupied, some systems in constellations are just totally rubbish or used as backup on prime time / weekends when a lot of players are online. Additionally people do tend to have private lives, alliances have activity fluctuations over their TZs and to swarm out everytime a group appears and picks at systems isn't viable or it'll burn you out. 42 minutes is for a totally maxed out system (you can count these on one hand in most alliances) - all other systems will be around 15-30 minutes.

Now you just take a group of 30-50 people in the right ships and lay waste to an alliance that's not in their proper TZ, this will be enough to reinforce enough or even camp their stations because these players will be scattered over systems in PVE ships with no FC around. And I did talk about the probable reaction of most 0.0 entities in the long run and what is the most convenient way to tackle this new system - and if you look at most 0.0 residents, they usually choose the most convenient way.

So I don't see the huge benefits of the new system because it doesn't really tackle the biggest issues of 0.0 atm. It'll lead to more dead space and the death of supercaps and dreads. Congratz. And nerfing the lure of 0.0, too.


Sounds to me that alliance that gets shut down that way by "30 to 50 people" does not deserve to be in null. Just because " they have no FC around". That is an attitude problem.

Assuming they have the ability to field similar numbers. If not then it would be just ol'good blobbing :) With the key difference that if attacker does not stick around afterwards the smaller guy can just flip the sov back around.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#3088 - 2015-03-06 15:04:28 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Schluffi Schluffelsen wrote:
Hey Mr. Wormhole, funny to see you typing in capital letters now you've understood that 2 minute cycle time thingy. Congrats!

You're happy talking in here while having no clue about the actual day-to-day life in a 0.0 alliance. Just because a system doesn't get used that much doesn't mean it's unoccupied, some systems in constellations are just totally rubbish. Additionally people so tend to have private lives, alliances have activity fluctuations over their TZs and to swarm out everytime a group appears and picks at systems isn't viable or it'll burn you out. 42 minutes is for a totally maxed out system (you can count these on one hand in most alliances) - all other systems will be around 15-30 minutes.

Now you just take a group of 30-50 people in the right ships and lay waste to an alliance that's not in their proper TZ, this will be enough to reinforce enough or even camp their stations because these players will be scattered over systems in PVE ships with no FC around. And I did talk about the probable reaction of most 0.0 entities in the long run and what is the most convenient way to tackle this new system - and if you look at most 0.0 residents, they usually choose the most convenient way.

So I don't see the huge benefits of the new system because it doesn't really tackle the biggest issues of 0.0 atm. It'll lead to more dead space and the death of supercaps and dreads. Congratz.

Firstly, yet again, I don't live in a wormhole...anymore.

Secondly, if you're not using the system, you have no need to hold sov for it unless it's a strategic system, in which case you might expect a strategic defence fleet to be placed NEARBY, idk, maybe because you might want to defend your strategic system possibly?

Thirdly you talk about an alliance not being in their proper TZ - THEY GET TO CHOOSE THEIR PRIMETIME WHEN THEY ARE VULNERABLE.

Fourthly there's already been a discussion about how more FCs will be needed and that F1 monkeys are going to need more leadership around because an uber blob descending on people with their alliances one star FC is not how CCP want sov warfare to work anymore.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

GG

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#3089 - 2015-03-06 15:07:48 UTC
For only 5 ISK a day, you can help sponsor Special Eddie.

Eddie was diagnosed with Entosis at the age of five, after his parents noticed they were unable to hold his attention for more than 5 minutes at a time. Initially, from two months of age, his parents suspected that Eddie suffered from ADHD or Asperger's Syndrome, but Ritalin did nothing to improve his condition.

He is currently fifteen years old and suffers from late-stage Entosis, characterized by sporadic responsiveness, usually within a four-hour window each evening. Eddie requires occasional laser treatment to restore his basic bodily functions.

Eddie also requires dialysis.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Schluffi Schluffelsen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3090 - 2015-03-06 15:09:10 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Schluffi Schluffelsen wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Schluffi Schluffelsen wrote:
many of them (due to a lot of bad truesec systems) are going to be fast grinds.
So why do they bother holding them at all if they're not using them? If they're worthless then why have they stuck a flag in it and why would they care about losing that flag?

Schluffi Schluffelsen wrote:
they'll still be able to cover more ground than you do (because they're the attackers and pre-setup) and end up reinforcing a lot of structures before you can chase them off.
Nope, they need at least 10 minutes with the grid to themselves AFTER their initial 2 minute cycle times and that's for a system with zero indices that you weren't using anyways. If you're using it then these invulnerable interceptors (with no tank or combat ability or incoming RR) have to remain on grid for 42 minutes minimum.



Hey Mr. Wormhole, funny to see you typing in capital letters now you've understood that 2 minute cycle time thingy. Congrats!

You're happy talking in here while having no clue about the actual day-to-day life in a 0.0 alliance. Just because a system doesn't get used that much doesn't mean it's unoccupied, some systems in constellations are just totally rubbish or used as backup on prime time / weekends when a lot of players are online. Additionally people so tend to have private lives, alliances have activity fluctuations over their TZs and to swarm out everytime a group appears and picks at systems isn't viable or it'll burn you out. 42 minutes is for a totally maxed out system (you can count these on one hand in most alliances) - all other systems will be around 15-30 minutes.

Now you just take a group of 30-50 people in the right ships and lay waste to an alliance that's not in their proper TZ, this will be enough to reinforce enough or even camp their stations because these players will be scattered over systems in PVE ships with no FC around. And I did talk about the probable reaction of most 0.0 entities in the long run and what is the most convenient way to tackle this new system - and if you look at most 0.0 residents, they usually choose the most convenient way.

So I don't see the huge benefits of the new system because it doesn't really tackle the biggest issues of 0.0 atm. It'll lead to more dead space and the death of supercaps and dreads. Congratz.

Respectfully, people in other areas of space are quite capable of reading the dev blogs and understanding them, as any other person, many have read through multiple times to pick up on the finer points.

Whilst people in other areas, may not have the deep understanding of current mechanics, as this is a completely new Sov, one can see just as well the advantages and otherwise of this system.

It may not compare to the current environment as it is changing it, totally. And the current use of space, size and distribution of alliances, and whether renters continue to be an income source, is something we will see in the months ahead.

The reason is, that CCP are giving nullsec tools that allow nullsec to decide their own future and destiny, other than a role as pieces on a chessboard, played by the powerful. This is different in that there is no predestined outcome, and in hindsight, we can see that was the only realistic outcome with dominion.

You may choose to return to that or be more independent, the thing is, you now have a choice.
You have no future but the one you create for yourself. A frightening concept, but the only one people should embrace.


That wasn't directed at WH residents in general, but at this person in particular. Everybody's free to post their opinion and each opinion is subjective. Nobody is able to predict the future because we don't know what's about to come and what players are going to do about it. We can all just try to imagine what effects this might have and how players are able to exploit it. When it comes to exploiting, Eve players are pretty good ;)

I do think that people currently living in 0.0 do care more about what's going to happen than WH/empire residents. Same as when people talk about HS shenanigans and 0.0 people want to remove Concord or any other related change to the space people have to live in - they tend to care more about it. I'll be off to WHs if this comes through, have always been intrigued to go there - now ISKs will be better, you can pick your own fights and don't have to deal with politics and grinds.
flakeys
Doomheim
#3091 - 2015-03-06 15:11:19 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
Lavayar wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Lavayar wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Why are people so scared of paper ships that cannot warp?

Have you seen what ships like cerberus are capable of?

These "trollceptors" are loot pinyatas, very little more. Assuming of course you live in your space.

Yes. My cerberus alt is ready for this.
In fact I'm just worrying that visual effect that shows which ship is applying Entosis Link is hard to notice in swarm of such bastards before it is to late.


So basically your answer to that 100M trollceptor is to bring a 200M+ cerberus ..unless of course, there are a few more names in local, which may or may not be a support fleet waiting for you just to do so, in which case you'll stay docked?

On second thought, make that a support fleet anywhere in range and a single additional pilot in local, to keep the point till his friends arrive.



In wich case it is not a trollceptor , just a normal ''bait and catch'' . Problem solved and content created , AWSOME right?

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
MASSADEATH
MASS A DEATH
Scumlords
#3092 - 2015-03-06 15:14:20 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Specia1 K wrote:
Torgeir Hekard wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Same reason we would use them, to ruin someone else's game.

Why the hell would you ruin someone else's game at the expense of your own game?
Well, goons would do it to prove a point. Which is like proving that meat grinders are dangerous and should require operation license by shoving your hand into one. But why would RvB take part in this idiocy if they don't get their fun from it?


lol, I just spewed my coffee :)

Wait, so you're saying we'd end everyone else's sov, but no one would end our 0.0 dream?

That doesn't sound right. I'm sure massadeath of moa said they were going to end us


Umm ..we will harass and do what we can to force you to condense into a more reasonable space size. Instead of the 95% wasted and empty space up north. We will keep harassing and Rfing until you either give up that system..or some other force wants to take it.

I think the whole point is.... you cant hold what you cant defend... so naturally alliances will have to condense into a much smaller ball of SOV, than the current sprawling empty space that currently exists. How many systems that is? who knows... I guess we will see how the mechanics play out, and the tenacity of the attackers and defenders of that space.

That being said... its going to be fun endlessly RFing and blowing up goons structures..and baiting them, counter dropping them, and generally harassing them into whatever size space the mechanics will allow.

We do intend to take space as well, however we have no illusions that we can hold that space... As the Apex force has not really been dealt with. And no small entity can hold space if a large apex force can roll thru that SOV every few weeks or so and reset it. :)

That being said...who cares about SOV... we are NPC..so its more of a getting fights thing than anything :)
Schluffi Schluffelsen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3093 - 2015-03-06 15:16:49 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Eli Apol wrote:
Schluffi Schluffelsen wrote:
Hey Mr. Wormhole, funny to see you typing in capital letters now you've understood that 2 minute cycle time thingy. Congrats!

You're happy talking in here while having no clue about the actual day-to-day life in a 0.0 alliance. Just because a system doesn't get used that much doesn't mean it's unoccupied, some systems in constellations are just totally rubbish. Additionally people so tend to have private lives, alliances have activity fluctuations over their TZs and to swarm out everytime a group appears and picks at systems isn't viable or it'll burn you out. 42 minutes is for a totally maxed out system (you can count these on one hand in most alliances) - all other systems will be around 15-30 minutes.

Now you just take a group of 30-50 people in the right ships and lay waste to an alliance that's not in their proper TZ, this will be enough to reinforce enough or even camp their stations because these players will be scattered over systems in PVE ships with no FC around. And I did talk about the probable reaction of most 0.0 entities in the long run and what is the most convenient way to tackle this new system - and if you look at most 0.0 residents, they usually choose the most convenient way.

So I don't see the huge benefits of the new system because it doesn't really tackle the biggest issues of 0.0 atm. It'll lead to more dead space and the death of supercaps and dreads. Congratz.

Firstly, yet again, I don't live in a wormhole...anymore.

Secondly, if you're not using the system, you have no need to hold sov for it unless it's a strategic system, in which case you might expect a strategic defence fleet to be placed NEARBY, idk, maybe because you might want to defend your strategic system possibly?

Thirdly you talk about an alliance not being in their proper TZ - THEY GET TO CHOOSE THEIR PRIMETIME WHEN THEY ARE VULNERABLE.

Fourthly there's already been a discussion about how more FCs will be needed and that F1 monkeys are going to need more leadership around because an uber blob descending on people with their alliances one star FC is not how CCP want sov warfare to work anymore.


*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.


GG


True, I thought that you can reinforce anytime and then it comes out during designated prime time - but I highly doubt that CCP seriously is going to enforce a 4h timeframe which is probably going to lock up most sov fights. The other points are still viable.
*Snip* Removed a reply to an edited out part of the quoted post. ISD Ezwal.
Specia1 K
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#3094 - 2015-03-06 15:19:57 UTC
Or simply:

CCP declares "Goons win Eve!"

Then reboots the servers, everyone has 10k isk and 1k SP, and we start all over with "EVE2 - From The Ashes"

Every sports system in the world is based on that model.
And it works to re-invigorate the system every single time.

Champion of the Knights of the General Discussion

Thunderdome
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#3095 - 2015-03-06 15:20:46 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Schluffi Schluffelsen wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Schluffi Schluffelsen wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
[quote=Schluffi Schluffelsen]many of them (due to a lot of bad truesec systems) are going to be fast grinds.
So why do they bother holding them at all if they're not using them? If they're worthless then why have they stuck a flag in it and why would they care about losing that flag?

Hey Mr. Wormhole, funny to see you typing in capital letters now you've understood that 2 minute cycle time thingy. Congrats!

You're happy talking in here while having no clue about the actual day-to-day life in a 0.0 alliance. Just because a system doesn't get used that much doesn't mean it's unoccupied, some systems in constellations are just totally rubbish or used as backup on prime time / weekends when a lot of players are online. Additionally people so tend to have private lives, alliances have activity fluctuations over their TZs and to swarm out everytime a group appears and picks at systems isn't viable or it'll burn you out. 42 minutes is for a totally maxed out system (you can count these on one hand in most alliances) - all other systems will be around 15-30 minutes.

Now you just take a group of 30-50 people in the right ships and lay waste to an alliance that's not in their proper TZ, this will be enough to reinforce enough or even camp their stations because these players will be scattered over systems in PVE ships with no FC around. And I did talk about the probable reaction of most 0.0 entities in the long run and what is the most convenient way to tackle this new system - and if you look at most 0.0 residents, they usually choose the most convenient way.

So I don't see the huge benefits of the new system because it doesn't really tackle the biggest issues of 0.0 atm. It'll lead to more dead space and the death of supercaps and dreads. Congratz.

Respectfully, people in other areas of space are quite capable of reading the dev blogs and understanding them, as any other person, many have read through multiple times to pick up on the finer points.

Whilst people in other areas, may not have the deep understanding of current mechanics, as this is a completely new Sov, one can see just as well the advantages and otherwise of this system.

It may not compare to the current environment as it is changing it, totally. And the current use of space, size and distribution of alliances, and whether renters continue to be an income source, is something we will see in the months ahead.

The reason is, that CCP are giving nullsec tools that allow nullsec to decide their own future and destiny, other than a role as pieces on a chessboard, played by the powerful. This is different in that there is no predestined outcome, and in hindsight, we can see that was the only realistic outcome with dominion.

You may choose to return to that or be more independent, the thing is, you now have a choice.
You have no future but the one you create for yourself. A frightening concept, but the only one people should embrace.


That wasn't directed at WH residents in general, but at this person in particular. Everybody's free to post their opinion and each opinion is subjective. Nobody is able to predict the future because we don't know what's about to come and what players are going to do about it. We can all just try to imagine what effects this might have and how players are able to exploit it. When it comes to exploiting, Eve players are pretty good ;)

I do think that people currently living in 0.0 do care more about what's going to happen than WH/empire residents. Same as when people talk about HS shenanigans and 0.0 people want to remove Concord or any other related change to the space people have to live in - they tend to care more about it. I'll be off to WHs if this comes through, have always been intrigued to go there - now ISKs will be better, you can pick your own fights and don't have to deal with politics and grinds.

Seriously, I am a wormholer, but more than that, I am an EvE player, All areas, deserve a place to call home, where they can live, thrive and survive. I absolutely believe and support that concept. And I have lived for a time in null, and it was not an experience I could describe as thriving and engaging. I have read every post in this thread, and other than responding to an obvious troll, I have attempted to clarify one or two points that are blindingly clear when reading the Devblog, for those who were set ablaze by the pitchforks and torches brigade, for whatever reason and motivation.

The one point I take from the whole process that CCP are embarking on is a complete expression of CCP Seagulls philosophy. Where one gives the players good tools, that do not influence the outcome to develop in a pre determined way, and to act as a balancing force if things take a turn that is a negative for the overall experience.

This as you can imagine, is hard for people who are used to another environment, even if they are aware of their shortfalls of their current environment.

Time zone, is certainly a point to address to achieve the very best result, but it needs fine tuning more than a different system.

The ability for all areas to be a valid, defendable productive home, for someone, is also something that needs investigation, and I make no assumptions, or prejudgement of the result.

In short, I wish you the very best of wishes and future success

Edit: I notice you are considering wormhole space as an alternative. This is very interesting as I would expect the New null, to be far more like wormhole space in many ways, than it currently is, (which is not a lot like it at all.)
To me, The massively important feature of wormhole space is the feeling of being in charge of one's own destiny. And the new null should hopefully soon give you exactly the same feeling, and it is worth striving for.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Emmy Mnemonic
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3096 - 2015-03-06 15:30:17 UTC
After a couple of days reading and thinking about the suggested changes, and discussing the changes in forums etc, I think CCP has overlooked a crucial part.

CCP has identified upgraded ratting systems as the "driver" that will generate wars over soverignity in nullsec. "Ratting is the major ISK faucet", some CCP-members tweeted recently. But that is hardly what finances the large sov-holding alliances, it's only partly true.

It is the R64/32 moons, and the related complex reaction farms that turns that scarce resource to ISK.

You might argue that it allready IS tied to sov-mechanics - in nullsec you get a 25% bous to the fuel usage of POSes in sov-systems. But for R64s/32s this is hardly signitificant on the bottom line. For a R64 POS that generates 6,5 B ISK / month in pure moon-goo-value, it does not matter if the fuel costs 500 M ISK or 375 M ISK. For the reactor farm that doubles or tripples that value through a chain of simple and complex reactions, and thus uses more POSes, it has a larger impact but it is still not crucial.

The new sov-mechanic should somehow be tied to the wealth-generation-capability in nullsec. I.e. tied to the R64/32 valuable moons, not just upgrades to systems, JBs, Ratting, Mining, Stations etc. Sov is not needed to control the moons, and the moons is what enables the power of the large alliances. Just look at lowsec - how many R64 moons in lowsec are NOT owned by the large power-blocs today? Now ask yourselfs why that is so? AFAIK there are no sov-mechanics in lowsec? ... right!

What if sov was needed to get 100% yield from the R64 moons? Without sov in a system, those moons only yield a fraction of what they do today, with a TCU you get a higher yield and the fuel-bonus of 25%, and with an iHub AND a TCU you get 100%. Something like that. Or even 125% in sov space, and less that 100% in lowsec - make nullsec R64s even MORE attractive to the power-blocs!

Now apply this also to the yield of simple and complex reactions; no sov - mediocre yield, sov - better yield, TCU - good yield, iHub - same yield as today. I.e. you have to own sov in the systems where you react stuff, or the yield will make it less interesting economically.

We are allready very protecive over our R64/32 moons as it is today. Now BOY would we fight over sov and protect our TCUs and iHubs in the systems where we have R64/32 moons!!!

CCP has focused on the ratting as the ISK-faucet, and belive people will fight like mad over upgraded ratting systems. Ratting is used by the masses, the soldiers, the grunts in all alliances. There are alternatives to nullsec ratting, and when Entosis-equipped trolling-forces start to scrap all upgraded ratting-systems, the masses will start using alternative methods to get ISK. Ratting as major income will decline and that activity can be moved.

But the POWER and the REAL faucets that builds up the major part of the economy of large alliances are the R64/32 moons and the POS-farms that through complex reactions turns that moon-goo into ISK. ISK that is used to build up larger forces of Titans and Supers and to finance war through Ship Replacement Funds, used to pay people that step up and create "content" in alliances and coalitions (FCs, logistics pilots), pays for spy-accounts in enemy alliances and also, to a very large extent, makes certain selected individuals in the hierarchial organisations of all alliances, very very VERY space-rich. So space-rich they can control markets, pay huge amounts to get annoying alliances off their backs etc etc.

No one will fight over sov because it is of very low value in itself.
Everyone will fight over the control of R64/32 moons.

CCP; Tie sov to the yield of moons and reactions, and you will get the "driver" to sovereignity confilcts in EVE-Online that you seek.

Ex ex-CEO of Svea Rike [.S.R.]
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#3097 - 2015-03-06 15:33:29 UTC
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
For those who are claiming they will take over half the galaxy in 40 minutes with their swarms of interceptors; what are your plans for protecting your space while you are away? Do you honestly think no one will do the same thing to you?

You claim that any small group will be crushed by your thousand upon thousands, but you leave the rest of your territory wide open. So you will lose it just as fast as you gain it.

Everyone knows that without massive numbers, most large blocs do terrible in smaller scale combat compared to the average player due to how much they relied on massive numbers to do anything. ;)]


What you are proposing is stagnation even worse than we have now: if I, as a small alliance, take a roaming gang through a WH during prime time to Catch looking for "good fights" or ratter ganks, nothing stops someone else from setting a bunch of horrible timers that anyone can third party.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Jenshae Chiroptera
#3098 - 2015-03-06 15:35:44 UTC
The current plan will cater to a younger audience who are playing FPS capture the flag games. The older SOV players will get tired of yet another little skirmish in yet another system.

Welcome to Low Sec 2.0

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3099 - 2015-03-06 15:36:13 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
For those who are claiming they will take over half the galaxy in 40 minutes with their swarms of interceptors; what are your plans for protecting your space while you are away? Do you honestly think no one will do the same thing to you?

You claim that any small group will be crushed by your thousand upon thousands, but you leave the rest of your territory wide open. So you will lose it just as fast as you gain it.

Everyone knows that without massive numbers, most large blocs do terrible in smaller scale combat compared to the average player due to how much they relied on massive numbers to do anything. ;)]


What you are proposing is stagnation even worse than we have now: if I, as a small alliance, take a roaming gang through a WH during prime time to Catch looking for "good fights" or ratter ganks, nothing stops someone else from setting a bunch of horrible timers that anyone can third party.



Nothing.....well nothing except YOU set your OWN prime time. If those timers are horrible for the defenders, I don't know what to tell you.


In brief: If you're so stupid as to set your prime time at a period when your players are generally not on.....just stop playing.
Blackfangg
A Line of Descent
#3100 - 2015-03-06 15:36:37 UTC
Schluffi Schluffelsen wrote:
Blackfangg wrote:
....
BlackFangg


"Only a handful of these systems are going to be maxed out, many of them (due to a lot of bad truesec systems) are going to be fast grinds."

" So let's say a gang decides to come with inties in your worst TZ - picking at your sov structures."

"now let's count in the hostiles return with a ceptor gang or a WH group is trying to get some kills out of you - you're all spread out trying to cover as many nodes as possible."

"So even with a more than serious attempt to actually take your sov, you need to spend most of your prime time to cover this. Every goddamn time.Plus you're putting a reasonable amount of ISKs at risk in stations that can be flipped (even faster now and with the risk of enemies playing station games and bubbling the hell out if it), multiple shiptypes that need to be stored etc."

"Then I'd rather live in a WH and pick my own fights or drop an alt in FW in lowsec"

"Numbers are still the primary source of power, grinding will be even more part of the 0.0 life - now we just exchanged HP grinding for mere time spent activating a high slot module. The primary reason for alliances to fold is burn out and low morale, especially when all you need to do is grind all day. I don't think it should be encouraging to do this, but rather promote smaller 0.0 entities that don't need backup of their partners"

"So many decent proposals were made the past weeks, just incorporate them into this."


Ok you seem very intelligent and that makes me happy, I wish people were reading this better and thinking more rationally like you, me, and the rare other few. But i have a few questions/thoughts on your opinion.

#1: If a system is only high index from a "Fast Grind" and that alone, then it probably isnt lived in, and shouldn't be yours.(potentially didnt understand what you meant here)

#2: Ok now im kinda wondering if you actually read it as well....They cant pick at your structure in your worst TZ....Only in the 4 hours you choose. And if you own 25 systems and live in them all, then you should be able to get 3-6 people in RLM Cerb/Tengu and Hyena/Lokis/Intys of your own online for atleast 4 hours, and if you dont have those that, then you dont own 25 systems.

#3 If they have managed to reinforce 25 systems then you deserve to lose it, 40mins AFTER the warning that EVERYONE gets and no one has shown up? Then ya, shouldnt be yours. Remember: This should be during your 4 hours that you have the most people online. If you dont have enough people to cover the systems then you dont need them.

#4: Ok if you live in null, and your alliance owns systems, you should have PLENTY of ships. I have my ships at my required staging system when on deployments of course, but I keep 10 of every fleet fit frig, 5 of every cruiser, 2 of each BC, and 2 of each BS in my HOME station (Plus atleast 4 of every T2/T3 I can fly, and ammo for everything). In case someday we get attacked en mass. I Literally could live off the stuff in my home station for, weeks if not months of fighting. And I have plenty of ores/mins/salvage to make more if I need them. So if you dont have enough ships...well...rat/mine more. Station flipping thing, at least now you actually have the chance to get stuff out of a lost station (Looking at you Solar and N3) And about the serious attempt. Of course you have to defend you space if someone wants it!!! THATS THE POINT. And if you cant get people to play during your MOST ACTIVE TIME then again, you should lose it.

#5 Well then go, plenty of us left here that will kill your rats, but having an Alt in FW or a WH isnt a bad idea, I have one, its for when I get bored of the empire and just want to hunt lowsec/WHs.

#6 But this isnt possible, if you have 100 people in your corp, and a alliance of 15000 decided they want your space, then its not gonna be yours anymore. They cant make it that way without ruining the game. Because if i couldn't bring a fleet of 1000 with a mix of Supers/Caps/BS/Cruisers/Frigates and beat your 100man alliance flying Tengus, then I'd leave this game because it would be pointless. Whats the point of having a corp at all if you can't have power/safety in numbers? If numbers were ever made to not matter, then EVE would become that themepark MMO everyone talks about.

#7 This is agree with, I think there are things that could be changed, such as maybe a 100km T2 ELink or degrading Strat Index. But I don't think this is a bad first step towards a better EVE, without millions on HP between me and that R-64 over there. Stuffs gonna get crazy after the patch but I believe a year or two from now we will look back and be like "What was I so mad about" Go back and look at how people said splitting Destroyers/Battlecruisers and everything into Racial Destroyer/BC was going to ruin the game and make it too hard to fly things. Or when they nerfed speeds. Or even WH space (Ya a lot of people thought it was dumb, go read the old posts.) I think CCP really should look hard at player opinions, but also there are so many people to please in this game. Its impossible to make them all happy.

-BlackFangg