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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

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Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2161 - 2015-03-05 10:14:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
At this point I'm pretty sure the Entosis' stats are intentionally being presented in a broke OP state (by Fozzie) for the hype. I predict Entosis will be changed to require X number of Entosis minutes (or hours) which can be sped up with multiple Entosis lasers at once, from both sides. So basically the contest will be a rolling count of total Entosis minutes with the winner being the side with an X minute / hour lead.

This is just like the time Rise said "PS: permadeath. PEACE!" at the end of EVE Vegas. For the hype. Something tells me he didn't want to do it, and was put up to it by someone managing, well, hype.



So you fail at understanding the very BASICS of their proposal. The KEY thing is NOT ESCALATING WITH NUMBERS!!

That is the Only reason why these proposals are interesting! because it will be more interesting to have several smaller fleeets than a HUGE BLOB on most of the war period. Because a small group can disable a system from a much larger alliance even with 10-20 ships if the owning alliance has no one living on that system. Because it will be the same speed for the average joe league to take a system as it would be for CFC do the same.


People whined so much about force projection, but they always failed to study proper strategy and notice that the problem is force CONCENTRATION! Force projection is just a mean to achieve force concentration! The lack of a limit or diminishing return in force CONCENTRATION is the root of all evil in 0.0

It makes the war in eve closer to strategic level of real world wars and with more depth. It does not amtter if you had the whole damm red army or just a regiment of 1k soldiers. Takes exactly the same time to take a village of grape farmers in south of France with either force! Because you cannot make such massive force concentration!

I don't think it should require escalation with numbers either. But it is obvious the Entosis system is designed to be a contest of military power, and only ends until one side is depleted. So while one Entosis appears to promote anti-blob gameplay, the reality is Entosis contests require annihilation or the nonexistence of one side.

If you raise the total Entosis minute requirement, you remove the viability of one Entosis laser as a credible threat.

Right now, a credible threat looks like a group with enough DPS to have its way with your station in 10 minutes. With Entosis sov, a credible threat is reduced to just one dude.

And that's a mistake because the station part of it is basically a ball tap to see if anyone's home.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Dark Spite
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#2162 - 2015-03-05 10:16:19 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
Hey Dark Spite, I didn't mean for it to make anyone upset. I mentioned it for anyone interested in proof of how Entosis sov will be used by goons.

The summary of Mittenz' talk was how to run sov warfare. So it is very relevant. He also mentions that Sov is EVE's best / only undeniable win condition. You can measure battles in ISK and ships, but the final flag that is planted is Sov. So. Sov has ISK benefits, but it's not about that, it's about planting that flag.

The other interesting thing about his talk is the date. 2012. At the time, his example for griefing was fake-out cynos, for days on end. Light random cynos in the space you intend to invade, and bring nothing through it. They'll respond and get amped up initially, but over time it will just wear them down.

Not sure if you're aware, but groups in EVE fall apart without so much as a shot fired, due to things like stress.

In 2015, it won't be cynos, it will be Entosis modules. The tactics he discussed in that presentation work even better with Entosis sov.

And then you have the people who have posted in this thread. They are warning everyone that Entosis sov will be bad. Gevlon included, and his comments can be taken as acknowledgement that it will be abused by you know who. Goon comments can be taken as gloating, or whatever you like.


I wasnt upset by you linking it and I do have a lot of respect for CFC and goons. Especially after having been part of CFC. The organisational level is really really good, I dont think a lot of outsiders understand how deep it runs. I agree that sov and planting the flag is one of the very few win conditions in EVE, but that is exactly why something new is desperately needed. I think the entosis module and shortening the sov conquering phase will give more activity in null. We are pretty excited about the opportunity it can provide for our gaming group.

And stress is a huge factor, I have personally afk'ed from the game when I was ceo of in a corp/alliance that held sov because of it. But it was also fun and challenging at the same time!

Gevlon's opinions I take with a huge grain of salt, I honestly think he would GRR Goons no matter what the sov system would be unless it involved the forced disbanding of CONDI.

But you and so many of the others in Goons are imo focusing too much on the griefer aspect and disregarding all the benefits the game mechanics can provide to small and mid-sized allianes. Given EVE players abilities to use the mechanics differently than ccp envisioned there can be no foolproof system. But more risktaking without huge consequences and burning out alliance doers is a huge step in the right direction. It is also quite different to hold a small area, like a constellation, in comparison to holding multiple regions. This alone would reduce the stress levels of alliance leadership and burnout factor for us groups that dont have multiple redundancies in alliance leadership.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#2163 - 2015-03-05 10:18:38 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
And again for all the Interceptors doomsayers. If you live in system, you just undock a SINGLE MARAUDER or carrier and putyour own entosis link to counter it. A bunch of interceptors will NOT kill you, and if then the fight escalates... that is exaclty what this system is supposed to create.


Right! and while you're sure that bunch of interceptors won't kill you (by the way, seen it done. Also, you can't get remote reps while sov lasering), and your buddies are coming to save your carrier because you were wrong, all those other structures in the area are getting hit, too.

Let's not say interceptors are going to be the doom of everything we see... but really, don't make the mistake of thinking that a single, heavily armored chesspiece is ever going to make a dent in asymmetrical warfare - which is what this system will set up.
Black Ambulance
#2164 - 2015-03-05 10:19:29 UTC
AngeDeMort wrote:
AttentionAttentionAttention

Please consider a minimum ship-size for this new module.. Maybe cruiser or battle-cruiser and upwards..? Maybe only HACs and upwards? Maybe a new cruiser and upwards? P But please keep low-fitting requirements, so as not to gimp a pvp fit..

Please do not allow these trollceptors to exist.

These changes look fantastic!

Thanks for your time..

Eve IS the best game. Always was, always will be. Cool

xx

AttentionAttentionAttentionPirate



NO WAY , Ceptors are fine , if you can't counter them , move back to jita or new caldari !

Adopt or die , I want to fit that mod to my ibis too.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#2165 - 2015-03-05 10:20:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
AngeDeMort wrote:
AttentionAttentionAttention

Please consider a minimum ship-size for this new module.. Maybe cruiser or battle-cruiser and upwards..? Maybe only HACs and upwards? Maybe a new cruiser and upwards? P But please keep low-fitting requirements, so as not to gimp a pvp fit..

Please do not allow these trollceptors to exist.

These changes look fantastic!

Thanks for your time..

Eve IS the best game. Always was, always will be. Cool

xx

AttentionAttentionAttentionPirate


Sorry but in used systems the TCU will be next to a POS, of course IHUBS will be annoying but you should only have one if you can get people to defend it. Same for stations.

The Trollceptors will only affect alliances that have TCU's in a system to hold it and nothing else not even a POS and no players, its a red herring thrown by players that are looking at what will annoy them rather than what the system will develop into. When I have a system it will be easy to kill interceptors doing this.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Lavayar
Haidamaky
UA Fleets
#2166 - 2015-03-05 10:21:30 UTC
Invulnerability of sov during all time but "prime time" is horrible idea.

It forces every group in the game to fight at a maximum disadvantage. And it makes every alliance to consolidate into a particular timezone. So at last we will get "time zone map of nullsec". I can hear the complaints of every russian as they discover that their offensive timers are always at 3am...

I think sov must be vulnerable not in "prime time" too. But not in "prime time" there should be x3 multiplier for capture time.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#2167 - 2015-03-05 10:22:17 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
And again for all the Interceptors doomsayers. If you live in system, you just undock a SINGLE MARAUDER or carrier and putyour own entosis link to counter it. A bunch of interceptors will NOT kill you, and if then the fight escalates... that is exaclty what this system is supposed to create.


Right! and while you're sure that bunch of interceptors won't kill you (by the way, seen it done. Also, you can't get remote reps while sov lasering), and your buddies are coming to save your carrier because you were wrong, all those other structures in the area are getting hit, too.

Let's not say interceptors are going to be the doom of everything we see... but really, don't make the mistake of thinking that a single, heavily armored chesspiece is ever going to make a dent in asymmetrical warfare - which is what this system will set up.


The TCU will be next to a POS, burn interceptors burn...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Lurifax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2168 - 2015-03-05 10:24:55 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Lurifax wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Bezdar22 wrote:
lemme tell u whats gonna happen...

there will be FW like fights in null sec.. no more big fights.. frig fights every where...

what they dont understand ppl coe top play this game coz they heard of big fights.. thats what make story .. not small fights.

small fights just look cool thats about it..

this game wil become WOW pretty soon.. thats where CCP leading us.





There will still be big fights. But wars will not be a LOT of boredom waiting for failed opportunitie sof such big fights.. and then suddenly end after a single big fight.

Wars will be more interestign with several smaller engagements, until someone tries to go for a very important target when Big fight WILL happen. The only difference is that the bigh fight will not be on a single grid, but spread all over the constellation.

More tactical depth, more strategical opportunities. THe need of real fleet commanders, not people that just call targets. The need of a hierarchy of command because you will have several ' regiments" in a fleet that must spread


Have you ever fought a sov war? You are not going to see small gangs zipping around fightting for the nodes.



Yes, I fought in 0.0 for a long time and I learned something, people will do whatever is needed to win. That coupled with understanding MATH.. leads to a simple conclusion.... if you do not split forces under this new system you will ALWAYS LOSE! IF you keep 1K people at one location and let the enemy split his 300 people in 3 groups you will LOSE the RACE!


ADAPT OR BECOME OBSOLETE! THE CHOICE IS YOURS!


So much cap so little understanding on how it will be done. If I can bring 1k ppl and you can bring 300. You are ****** from the start. 300 on the undock and another 700 ppl dicking around capping nodes.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2169 - 2015-03-05 10:26:05 UTC
Lurifax wrote:
So much cap so little understanding on how it will be done. If I can bring 1k ppl and you can bring 300. You are ****** from the start. 300 on the undock and another 700 ppl dicking around capping nodes.

Guess you should send those 300 into his territory and burn it instead, then.
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#2170 - 2015-03-05 10:26:12 UTC
AngeDeMort wrote:
AttentionAttentionAttention

Please consider a minimum ship-size for this new module.. Maybe cruiser or battle-cruiser and upwards..? Maybe only HACs and upwards? Maybe a new cruiser and upwards? P But please keep low-fitting requirements, so as not to gimp a pvp fit..

Please do not allow these trollceptors to exist.

These changes look fantastic!

Thanks for your time..

Eve IS the best game. Always was, always will be. Cool

xx

AttentionAttentionAttentionPirate


trollceptors will never be a thing

Just Add Water
Lurifax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2171 - 2015-03-05 10:26:18 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
And again for all the Interceptors doomsayers. If you live in system, you just undock a SINGLE MARAUDER or carrier and putyour own entosis link to counter it. A bunch of interceptors will NOT kill you, and if then the fight escalates... that is exaclty what this system is supposed to create.


Right! and while you're sure that bunch of interceptors won't kill you (by the way, seen it done. Also, you can't get remote reps while sov lasering), and your buddies are coming to save your carrier because you were wrong, all those other structures in the area are getting hit, too.

Let's not say interceptors are going to be the doom of everything we see... but really, don't make the mistake of thinking that a single, heavily armored chesspiece is ever going to make a dent in asymmetrical warfare - which is what this system will set up.


The TCU will be next to a POS, burn interceptors burn...


The TCU will only put the name on the map. You can keep on the pos, but it can be totally ignored since it is now separate from the Ihub and the station.
AngeDeMort
CyberMachine
#2172 - 2015-03-05 10:26:46 UTC
Black Ambulance wrote:
AngeDeMort wrote:
AttentionAttentionAttention

Please consider a minimum ship-size for this new module.. Maybe cruiser or battle-cruiser and upwards..? Maybe only HACs and upwards? Maybe a new cruiser and upwards? P But please keep low-fitting requirements, so as not to gimp a pvp fit..

Please do not allow these trollceptors to exist.

These changes look fantastic!

Thanks for your time..

Eve IS the best game. Always was, always will be. Cool

xx

AttentionAttentionAttentionPirate



NO WAY , Ceptors are fine , if you can't counter them , move back to jita or new caldari !

Adopt or die , I want to fit that mod to my ibis too.



Your ability to counter a troll fit with a troll fit of your own, in numbers, is not what is being sought here.. It is content and gameplay...
Time-wasting, while it may float some peoples boats, is not really, I don't believe, something CCP wants, necessarily. By having a minumum ship-size fitting requirement the probability of actually engaging in combat/content increases...
With trollceptors, the concept is NOT to engage in combat but rather in griefing-type activities! Smile You wanting to fit one to your ibis says a lot... Oops
So, hopefully, it is not necessarily "no way.."
Lurifax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2173 - 2015-03-05 10:28:02 UTC
Lord TGR wrote:
Lurifax wrote:
So much cap so little understanding on how it will be done. If I can bring 1k ppl and you can bring 300. You are ****** from the start. 300 on the undock and another 700 ppl dicking around capping nodes.

Guess you should send those 300 into his territory and burn it instead, then.


Would be a good option, if we happend to be the same 4 hour time window. But lets just say we were, then it would be a godd option.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2174 - 2015-03-05 10:30:52 UTC
Lurifax wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:
Lurifax wrote:
So much cap so little understanding on how it will be done. If I can bring 1k ppl and you can bring 300. You are ****** from the start. 300 on the undock and another 700 ppl dicking around capping nodes.

Guess you should send those 300 into his territory and burn it instead, then.


Would be a good option, if we happend to be the same 4 hour time window. But lets just say we were, then it would be a godd option.

Or they can not be dumb and let themselves get camped into the station (don't log off in a station during war where the enemy's right outside holy christ), and then run around and pick off the fleets which ARE manageable. Or just realize that they've bitten off more than they could chew and go to a different spot where the neighbours are less feisty than they are.
Dark Spite
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#2175 - 2015-03-05 10:31:02 UTC
Interceptors are really good ships now and anyone disregarding their abilities in taking down large targets need look no further than Spectre Fleets roam last weekend where they took down a carrier alone. But maybe an interceptor simply cannot fit an Entosis module. That we dont know yet, given we only know range of t1 and t2 modules and that infomorph psychology will be a pre-requisite. Thats pretty thin for us to argue about sovceptors of doom.

The whole application of the mechanic would change a lot if it only can be fitted to cruiser hulls and above, or a severly borked t3 destroyer fit. And the latter wouldnt have the bubble immunities of the interceptors, which would reduce the ease of getting them into a system and survive.

With this module in place and the gimping on capital class ships caps will be more focused towards use on POS's and for dropping on caps.

Except for planting the flag, which the new system also provides, the biggest economic motivator outside of renter empires is moongoo. Smaller groups could offer/be forced to cede their good moons for a NIP. Thus reducing blue lists, encourage more people in null and more chances for content and fights.

Eve's biggest problem isnt the mechanics in themselves but the risk-aversion so many players and fc's have because welping a huge fleet sucks. Only DBRB dont mind doing that frequently but he does engage and take chances, which I laud him for.
Black Ambulance
#2176 - 2015-03-05 10:31:06 UTC
AngeDeMort wrote:
Black Ambulance wrote:
AngeDeMort wrote:
AttentionAttentionAttention

Please consider a minimum ship-size for this new module.. Maybe cruiser or battle-cruiser and upwards..? Maybe only HACs and upwards? Maybe a new cruiser and upwards? P But please keep low-fitting requirements, so as not to gimp a pvp fit..

Please do not allow these trollceptors to exist.

These changes look fantastic!

Thanks for your time..

Eve IS the best game. Always was, always will be. Cool

xx

AttentionAttentionAttentionPirate



NO WAY , Ceptors are fine , if you can't counter them , move back to jita or new caldari !

Adopt or die , I want to fit that mod to my ibis too.



Your ability to counter a troll fit with a troll fit of your own, in numbers, is not what is being sought here.. It is content and gameplay...
Time-wasting, while it may float some peoples boats, is not really, I don't believe, something CCP wants, necessarily. By having a minumum ship-size fitting requirement the probability of actually engaging in combat/content increases...
With trollceptors, the concept is NOT to engage in combat but rather in griefing-type activities! Smile You wanting to fit one to your ibis says a lot... Oops
So, hopefully, it is not necessarily "no way.."


The ibis was a joke , but you can counter the ceptors etc with anything with the link fitted too.
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#2177 - 2015-03-05 10:31:13 UTC
Lurifax wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:
Lurifax wrote:
So much cap so little understanding on how it will be done. If I can bring 1k ppl and you can bring 300. You are ****** from the start. 300 on the undock and another 700 ppl dicking around capping nodes.

Guess you should send those 300 into his territory and burn it instead, then.


Would be a good option, if we happend to be the same 4 hour time window. But lets just say we were, then it would be a godd option.


if not then your allies in the other tz will be having a hell of a good time doing their own harrassment op. and, see? prime tz is not a problem, everybody in different tz will have fun times. Lol

Just Add Water
AngeDeMort
CyberMachine
#2178 - 2015-03-05 10:31:54 UTC
Nat Silverguard wrote:
AngeDeMort wrote:
AttentionAttentionAttention

Please consider a minimum ship-size for this new module.. Maybe cruiser or battle-cruiser and upwards..? Maybe only HACs and upwards? Maybe a new cruiser and upwards? P But please keep low-fitting requirements, so as not to gimp a pvp fit..

Please do not allow these trollceptors to exist.

These changes look fantastic!

Thanks for your time..

Eve IS the best game. Always was, always will be. Cool

xx

AttentionAttentionAttentionPirate


trollceptors will never be a thing



So you(?) say... But what do you know, for sure? Why not just make sure..?
Worrff
Enterprise Holdings
#2179 - 2015-03-05 10:32:36 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
This is the kind of thing where actions always speak louder than words, so I'll just say that I hope that for many of you the actions you've seen from CCP recently have increased your trust that we will follow through.


Not really. I have no expectations of that changing.

You are absolutely correct, actions do speak louder than words. You have recently left a lot of stuff broken or half finished, despite being told numerous times. A quick release schedule is an awesome idea, but not if it leaves the game more and more broken as time goes on.

So, NO, I don't trust you to follow through at all.

CCP Philosophy: If it works, break it. If it’s broken, leave it alone and break something else.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#2180 - 2015-03-05 10:33:33 UTC
Lurifax wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
And again for all the Interceptors doomsayers. If you live in system, you just undock a SINGLE MARAUDER or carrier and putyour own entosis link to counter it. A bunch of interceptors will NOT kill you, and if then the fight escalates... that is exaclty what this system is supposed to create.


Right! and while you're sure that bunch of interceptors won't kill you (by the way, seen it done. Also, you can't get remote reps while sov lasering), and your buddies are coming to save your carrier because you were wrong, all those other structures in the area are getting hit, too.

Let's not say interceptors are going to be the doom of everything we see... but really, don't make the mistake of thinking that a single, heavily armored chesspiece is ever going to make a dent in asymmetrical warfare - which is what this system will set up.


The TCU will be next to a POS, burn interceptors burn...


The TCU will only put the name on the map. You can keep on the pos, but it can be totally ignored since it is now separate from the Ihub and the station.


Holding sov is a start, its what a lot of people want to do in Eve then they can scale up from that and an IHUB is part of that process as well as a station or perhaps something better going forward. Many players want to carve out their own space, this system gives it to them.

So what if someone comes along to lol roll an area, its a POS and a TCU and a bit of effort.

The IHUB is the one that will be trolled and this is the issue, that makes the space usable for a number of things in the game, however if you cannot defend the IHUB you should not be trying to use it. But that I don't care so much about because my objective is to hold a system.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp