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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

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Author
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1701 - 2015-03-04 19:27:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
Geddon Kabaal wrote:
you might TANK 56 Ceptors, but as I understand u can fit 1 of these new Links and you Need 2 Ceptors to take sov over 1 whatevertanky ship, So will Need to bring like 50 Ships with 50 Links if the Attacker brings 50 Links to attack. Or did I missunderstand anything?

You understand completely wrong.

Only 1 link per side matters so one defensive link counters out all the offensive links - meaning the ceptor gang has to nullify the defensive link to continue the grind.

Marauder works well because it can't just be jammed out by ECM and because it can tank a huge number of interceptors meaning that they need to bring something bigger or just give up and move to the next empty system.

You can also add pulses that hit out to 120km with a little fiddling on that fit :)

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

Thoirdhealbhach
Liga der hessischen Gentlemen
#1702 - 2015-03-04 19:27:58 UTC
I have a suggestion to prevent griefing for griefing's sake:

Scale up the capture timer ALOT if any side is outnumbered. Scale it in real time. Empty systems (no occupants online) work at the minimal 10 min per capture level. Let the capture time scale up directly with the ratio, so if one side is outnumbered 3:1 the capture time goes up by a factor x3.

This way, a lone ceptor would need a 100 min to capture anything from under the nose of say 10 members in local. The defenders could easily finish up whatever they were doing, switch to a more appropriate ship, decide on a fitting, go get some snacks and then finally go and scare him off.

If the defenders are outnumbered, the same holds true: Instead of steamrolling a small group with superior forces, you give the underdog time to gather allies. And if the attacker doesn't like the long timer, he can withdraw forces to speed it up. Which in turn, would give the defenders at least a series of nice appripriately sizes fights. Of course the big guys will always have more reinforcements, but initially it would be the best tactic to give the occupants a "fair" fight, at least in terms of number of active pilots...

That way fighting at a numerical balance would always be a good tactic to capture. And as a side effect, caps would be pretty useful, people with more capitals would be at an advantage, because they can bring more DPS/EHP per pilot and can still keep the optimal 1:1 ratio...

It would be hard for the losing side to drag out the fight as well, because the winning side would just move unneeded forces elsewhere...
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1703 - 2015-03-04 19:29:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Lena Lazair
Skia Aumer wrote:
Agent Known wrote:
People rent because they don't have a supercap fleet to grind down structures or defend themselves when they get welped. The current sov mechanics vastly favors alliances with large capital fleets who are able to grind structures very quickly.

You dont need supercap ~fleet~. You only need 1 mothership.
You cannot ~welp~ it unless you're brain dead.


Sure, you only needed 1 supercap per structure grind. Each of which was a gigantic hotdrop magnet for anyone with a standing supercap fleet. And that still means you NEED 1 SUPERCAP PER STRUCTURE GRIND.

Now you only need 1 subcap pre structure grind. NO amount of "apex force projection" will worry you. You can structure grind an unlimited number of targets each day, for free, with nothing but an inty (or cruiser or even BS, whatever it ends up being) and not care in the slightest which (if any) get hotdropped by a supercap fleet. And dropping supercap fleets obviously becomes an inefficient and suboptimal defence against this. The optimal defense suddenly becomes having active pilots IN LOCAL in EACH SYSTEM that can defensive E-link on demand during prime time. e.g. occupancy, combined with roaming defense fleets that can quickly mobilize to counter more serious attacks and/or to "deplex" any control node timers that go live that day. Multiple mobile mixed-composition fleets will be the norm. Black ops bridging everywhere. etc. DAILY conflict, because why not? Why would you NOT go spend 50 cruisers or 100 cruisers to flip 20 or 50 CFC systems?

All the large coalition groups are talking about how much fun they will have rage-rolling scorched-earth-style all their backwater/renter sov, forgetting that all of your enemies will be doing the SAME THING, in the same cheap welpable ships, and it's only a matter of time before you remember how much you hate each other far more than backwater renters and start doing it TO EACH OTHER instead. Why would CFC use 100 cruisers to flip 100 renter systems when they suddenly realize they could use the same 100 cruisers to flip 50 NA. systems?
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1704 - 2015-03-04 19:29:41 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:
I'm mostly happy with the underlying premise. There are a few things I think might need tweaking, but on the whole I'm positive to it. It's Jenn aSide who's saying there are deep, grievous flaws with it. I'm just wondering if these grievous flaws can be quantified, so I can see if I agree with Jenn or not.

Are you happy about the state of capital ships after the change?

I'll be happier with caps after the change, since they won't be usable to require the escalation to B-R levels over a single system's fate, without being able to hurt the other guy even more for his hubris.
St'oto
Hell's Death Squad
#1705 - 2015-03-04 19:31:22 UTC  |  Edited by: St'oto
Absolutely loving the "freeport mode." This will allow me (hopefully) to liquidate assets that are LOCKED in most regions of nullsec when I was involved in nullsec warfare. So absolutely loving this. As diplo has absolutely failed in getting these assets liquidated. People either don't respond, respond rather harshly (even though I'm giving them items for their market), or say "OK" and then use that opportunity as a free kill once I get into system.

So this way, I'll be able to have a fighting chance at recovering/liquidating some assets without corp hopping like crazy. This change is amazing! Anyone who disagrees with this change obviously doesn't have billions of isk locked down all over nullsec. Or is still currently involved in nullsec warfare so they are just waiting for the right opportunity when said station inevitably flips to an alliance that is blue with them. (or just doesn't care because they are absolutely rolling in isk and don't mind having their personal assets window littered with assets they can't recover.)

Heck, I like pretty much everything to do with this SOV change. I may end up going back to nullsec warfare once this get's fully implemented. As I left nullsec warfare and went into faction warfare because of said asset lockdown/current sov mechanics.

The only thing I don't like (and this is REALLY noted in a huge post in the Drifter specific thread from another devblog) is the fact that CCP pre-buffed drifters to ridiculous proportions because of these SOV changes when they didn't need to until said SOV changes were released. (Or rather when the module was actually added to the loot table.) So they pretty much made a new NPC in highsec completely useless again until these changes are put into effect. (That is assuming they will remain in high-sec at all.) Even when it comes to just purely having fun with them. Now no one is going to touch them until the loot table is added because of the "pre buff." As now your absolutely guaranteed to lose 1 ship regardless due to their buffs.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#1706 - 2015-03-04 19:38:18 UTC
Lena Lazair wrote:
Sure, you only needed 1 supercap per structure grind. Each of which was a gigantic hotdrop magnet for anyone with a standing supercap fleet. And that still means you NEED 1 SUPERCAP PER STRUCTURE GRIND.

Of course you will be hotdropped in an empty system 30 jump away from civilization (which is a typical renter system).
Cool story bro.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#1707 - 2015-03-04 19:42:43 UTC
Alp Khan wrote:
I especially laughed out loud and ended up spilling the Turkish coffee I've been sipping when I saw that Deklein region, the place I live in and the revered Goon homeland, has seen PvP related losses decrease by 20% since Phoebe and Jump Fatigue hit.[/b]


You have lots of numbers and assets to defend it, its location has something to do with it too, also the fact you sit behind a load of other CFC alliances. Since the reduction in jump range and jump fatigue Deklin has become even safer, in fact I am surprised the reduction was not greater. But it proves nothing, only how safe Deklin is!

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Black Canary Jnr
Higher Than Everest
#1708 - 2015-03-04 19:43:08 UTC
3 suggestions.

Suggestion: Limit the use of entosis links to valid squad commander/ wing commander/ Fleet command positions.

Sorry to the solo people who want to go out and screw with sov, but sov shouldn't be pingable by a solo troll inty. Requiring people in fleet leadership positions limits the amount of Entosis links you can bring with you and incentivises multiple fleets.



Suggestion: Allow alliances to name 1 Capital system that receives full RF times automatically.

As it stands the system i spend the most time in has a relatively low level of ratting and PvE occuring, primarily because it's 1 jump out of high sec, however it is where i PVP a lot and so does my alliance, it is by far the most active of all of our systems with a strong market and where we spend most of our time in game. That our staging/ capital/ most iconic system can be RFed with a ~17 minute timer is a bit of a joke and incredibly anti-climatic, it takes longer to RF a ratting system then an alliance staging? Give us a chance to defend pre-timer, heaven forbid we might want to do something other than sit in our home base every time we log in.

Suggestion: limit amount of timers that can occur in a constellation at once.

Probably the most striking thing about this proposed system is that you can spend a couple of hours RFing stuff with a couple of fleets, come back in 2 days and take an entire constellation in one night. I want sov to be more fluid but an entire constellation in 3 days is pretty OP. Is there such a thing as too fluid sov CCP?
Ion Blacknight
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#1709 - 2015-03-04 19:45:27 UTC
I had the same response as Rena: the Command Node thing is very gamey, it has no logic to support it. Give us something we can begin to believe in.

This discourages me from having a lot of assets and market inventory in null. I can only imagine what major industrialists and cap/supercap owners are feeling.

The range of the entosis link needs to be short to ensure fights. We don't want kitey uncatchable entosisers as well as cloaky afk campers do we?


War reports: Blacknight active

Iski Zuki DaSen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1710 - 2015-03-04 19:46:37 UTC
question alliance A attack the tcu of the alliance B and succefully destroys it but allaince B has like 100 tcu in system and start onlining the 2nd tcu what will be in that case?
Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1711 - 2015-03-04 19:48:49 UTC
Should be interesting.

Sounds like modified football game with guns and a quarter back wearing a bullseye.

I think using a ship scanner will be handy as a hit squad searches ships with the unique module

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships

Logan Revelore
Symbiotic Systems
#1712 - 2015-03-04 19:48:52 UTC
I have no idea about sov and null, haven't really involved myself in the game much yet. But to me it seems capital ships will find themselves without a role. Also, it seems to easy too reinforce structures.

And the prime time is not a clever feature. Remove it completely.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1713 - 2015-03-04 19:48:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
Black Canary Jnr wrote:
Suggestion: Limit the use of entosis links to valid squad commander/ wing commander/ Fleet command positions.

Sorry to the solo people who want to go out and screw with sov, but sov shouldn't be pingable by a solo troll inty. Requiring people in fleet leadership positions limits the amount of Entosis links you can bring with you and incentivises multiple fleets.


You realise I can make a fleet with an alt and put myself as squad leader and my alt as wing commander right?

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1714 - 2015-03-04 19:49:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Lena Lazair
Kah'Les wrote:
NC. don't own SOV so your whole argument is invalied. All sov is rented out they have some systems just so we got beacons or a importent JB.


You think these semantic talking points will stop CFC from flipping all renter sov in NA., and you think NA. renters will keep paying fees to N3 when they are being daily harassed by CFC and Brave and any other ragtag cruiser fleet that comes their way, because suddenly NC.'s supers have no ability to prevent this just by existing?

It doesn't matter how you spin it, the NA. renter income will vanish from N3 coffers because rental income is, for all intents and purposes, a supercap fleet lease. And no one will need a supercap fleet lease in a nullsec with E-links.

This doesn't mean the concept of renting will suddenly disappear, or that arrangements won't be made, extortions, protection rackets, etc. But the days of controlling 4 or 5 regions by virtue of simply being able to -- when needed and once in a bluemoon -- CTA login a bunch of supercaps all at once, is gone once this change goes out. System control will first and foremost be dependent on local, active members capable of forming subcaps fleets during primetime vulnerability windows. This doesn't magically make large groups suddenly more vulnerable to small groups as far as regular subcap fleet battles go. But daily sov conflict, border skirmishes, and system flips will become the norm.

Further, alliance blue donut agreements become meaningless when the power to flip sov is put in the hands of every line member with a T1 subcap and not just the privileged supercap pilots. Again, ask yourself... why would Brave NOT take 50 cruisers and go flip CFC sov? They don't need command approval for this. They don't need to wait for a CTA or an approved FC. They aren't about to go lose supercaps. They probably don't even care about SRP.

All they need is a dozen bored people to raid the newbie hangar for T1 cruisers and go flip a quiet system, and if CFC doesn't bring a fleet to defend, welp, there goes that system. You think giant blue agreements at alliance command levels will have a chance of stopping bored line members from doing this every single day? Hell no. Alliance leaders will either have to acknowledge that they are at open war with their enemies and allow line members to do this kind of daily skirmishing, or else they are going to have to kick out half of their active line members.

No one playing EVE is NOT going to take 50 T1 cruisers to try and flip an enemy system from under the nose of their evil antagonist just because their alliance command says "don't do that". Take away my SRP, I don't care, I'll fund the T1 fleet myself. It's not like I'm losing dreads here. Take away my approved FC's, don't care, 10 bored guys with a convenient wormhole and lolfits can flip sov if we happen to find a particularly vulnerable/out of the way spot. Kick me out of the alliance? Sure, fine, only you'll be booting 50% of your active line members after a month in a system which rewards sov to anyone that can fly a subcap locally/at home during their primetime hours. Probably not a wise strategic move...
Kah'Les
hirr
Pandemic Horde
#1715 - 2015-03-04 19:52:53 UTC
Lena Lazair wrote:
Kah'Les wrote:
NC. don't own SOV so your whole argument is invalied. All sov is rented out they have some systems just so we got beacons or a importent JB.


You think these semantic talking points will stop CFC from flipping all renter sov in NA., and you think NA. renters will keep paying fees to N3 when they are being daily harassed by CFC and Brave and any other ragtag cruiser fleet that comes their way, because suddenly NC.'s supers have no ability to prevent this just by existing?


So you saying no one gone be able to defend SOV from big enteties?
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1716 - 2015-03-04 19:53:17 UTC
Here is a suggestion: CCP needs to actually listen to the nullsec CSM representatives (they are largely disregarding input from CSM reps with Sov changes). Or hire someone that is well versed in nullsec to actually work at CCP.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1717 - 2015-03-04 19:55:48 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Here is a suggestion: CCP needs to actually listen to the nullsec CSM representatives (they are largely disregarding input from CSM reps with Sov changes). Or hire someone that is well versed in nullsec to actually work at CCP.

Because the opinion of someone with a vested interest in keeping the blue donut is exactly what's needed to shake up null right?

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1718 - 2015-03-04 19:56:11 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Lena Lazair wrote:
Sure, you only needed 1 supercap per structure grind. Each of which was a gigantic hotdrop magnet for anyone with a standing supercap fleet. And that still means you NEED 1 SUPERCAP PER STRUCTURE GRIND.

Of course you will be hotdropped in an empty system 30 jump away from civilization (which is a typical renter system).
Cool story bro.


Have you seen the lengths people go to to get supercap kills? Are you shitting me? The only reason you'd NOT get hotdropped is if 1) they think it's a trap or 2) you managed perfect intel/opsec and no one knew it was going down.
Geddon Kabaal
Friendly Space Pinguin
#1719 - 2015-03-04 19:58:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Geddon Kabaal
Eli Apol wrote:
You understand completely wrong.

Only 1 link per side matters so one defensive link counters out all the offensive links - meaning the ceptor gang has to nullify the defensive link to continue the grind.

Marauder works well because it can't just be jammed out by ECM and because it can tank a huge number of interceptors meaning that they need to bring something bigger or just give up and move to the next empty system.

You can also add pulses that hit out to 120km with a little fiddling on that fit :)


If this is true I totally agree with you.
Geanos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1720 - 2015-03-04 19:59:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Geanos
If you boys cannot be arsed to defend your TCU from an interceptor gang, then don't take sov. Just plant your POS, plex / rat all day log and get into POS shields when danger come your way, like you always do. If you want the 25% bonus for fuel reduction, then fight for it. Do a bit of math and if "estimated ship loss > ISK saved from having a TCU", don't plant the thing. And stop complaining, think more of what you can do.