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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

First post First post First post
Author
lilol' me
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#1641 - 2015-03-04 18:17:29 UTC
prime time should be set and should not be able to be changed just like that With only 96 hours. should be a whole week at least personally a month
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1642 - 2015-03-04 18:20:19 UTC
Kah'Les wrote:
Just gone make sure to get it out there until I know CCP notice; I'm 100% against entosis links. SOV magic beam is the most lazy, easiest solution and 0% comidment.




Says the guy playing submarines in space... where things collide at relativistic speeds and just bounce like rubber. Where people can stick books into their heads.... where you can track things better far away than close by. Where.. well youg et the idea.. this is a fantasy game

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1643 - 2015-03-04 18:21:05 UTC
lilol' me wrote:
OK CCP Fozzie. There is a big elephant in the room for me. What are you going to do about large alliances like NC. and N3 just using their might to effectively own loads and load of regions ( it's getting out of hand) and do as they are now renting every system for billions and do absolutely nothing but use their capital might to stop anyone doing anything.


You can't own large regions on the basis of capital might anymore. Even if we reverted the travel changes, the existing capital/supercap dominance doesn't work when you have to capture 10 or 20 nodes across a constellation. For each group of systems you want to control, everywhere, all at roughly the same time. Every day, because anyone can flip them on a moment's notice if you weren't actually there to defensive E-link to prevent the timer.

What, exactly, are you going to hot drop your caps on? What is the deterrent your supercap fleet provides when the nullfiied cloaky T3 fleet can just go around you and capture sov control nodes in every other system around your big giant fleet?

This isn't to say that strategically critical systems won't still escalate into giant cap battles. But large alliances simply won't be able to lock down "loads of regions" for any length of time without committing significant fleet ops to defend every timer in every single one. And there will be timers, because anyone in an inty can start the timer and anyone with a few T3 cruisers can then cap 10 or 20 control nodes on a whim. And the large groups cannot stop any of this unless they commit an actual fleet to stopping them or out-capping them. In every. single. constellation that they want to control.

In short, if you don't have live, active pilots in that area on a regular, daily basis, you will be at a fatal disadvantage to almost any reasonably sized/funded group that IS willing to live there on a regular, daily basis.

Any system that large groups are willing to live in and "staff" with reasonably sized defense/E-link/counter-control-node fleets, those large groups can own. The entire point is that we're all pretty sure the number of systems that will be is going to be considerably less than the number they own right now.
Kah'Les
hirr
Pandemic Horde
#1644 - 2015-03-04 18:22:00 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Kah'Les wrote:
And if people need to use 28 hours a week to stop scrubs from taking systems, it sounds balanced how? The sov system we have now even thou it's grindy at least you only needed to spend 1 hour to stop someone from taking one system compared to making eve a second job with the new system.


Kah'Les wrote:
It's a place of comidment and time


Make your mind up son.


You honestly don't know how much time in null sec goes down to fueling POS, JB and supplying yourself with weekly PvP ships. If your prime time is used hunting people all the time you get less time to logistics and CTAs to fight the bigger fights, personal roams or ISK making. Instead you sit all day in your own system activating Entosis Link all day. There are other things than fighting that takes time in this game.
Max Therion
Jita Ikami Bank
#1645 - 2015-03-04 18:22:38 UTC
Make the Entosis module unable to be fit to all frigates and unable to be remote boosted. Otherwise, also make moar null space on the map so that if this becomes an experiment in the absurd it will be even a bigger mistake. Change for improvement is welcome; change for changes sake is not, it is a slippery slope.
lilol' me
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#1646 - 2015-03-04 18:22:47 UTC  |  Edited by: lilol' me
Lena Lazair wrote:
lilol' me wrote:
OK CCP Fozzie. There is a big elephant in the room for me. What are you going to do about large alliances like NC. and N3 just using their might to effectively own loads and load of regions ( it's getting out of hand) and do as they are now renting every system for billions and do absolutely nothing but use their capital might to stop anyone doing anything.


You can't own large regions on the basis of capital might anymore. Even if we reverted the travel changes, the existing capital/supercap dominance doesn't work when you have to capture 10 or 20 nodes across a constellation. For each group of systems you want to control, everywhere, all at roughly the same time. Every day, because anyone can flip them on a moment's notice if you weren't actually there to defensive E-link to prevent the timer.

What, exactly, are you going to hot drop your caps on? What is the deterrent your supercap fleet provides when the nullfiied cloaky T3 fleet can just go around you and capture sov control nodes in every other system around your big giant fleet?

This isn't to say that strategically critical systems won't still escalate into giant cap battles. But large alliances simply won't be able to lock down "loads of regions" for any length of time without committing significant fleet ops to defend every timer in every single one. And there will be timers, because anyone in an inty can start the timer and anyone with a few T3 cruisers can then cap 10 or 20 control nodes on a whim. And the large groups cannot stop any of this unless they commit an actual fleet to stopping them or out-capping them. In every. single. constellation that they want to control.

In short, if you don't have live, active pilots in that area on a regular, daily basis, you will be at a fatal disadvantage to almost any reasonably sized/funded group that IS willing to live there on a regular, daily basis.

Any system that large groups are willing to live in and "staff" with reasonably sized defense/E-link/counter-control-node fleets, those large groups can own. The entire point is that we're all pretty sure the number of systems that will be is going to be considerably less than the number they own right now.

er mm have you checked the sov map lately? like northern associates? The active pilots ARE the renters!!
Arrendis
TK Corp
#1647 - 2015-03-04 18:23:41 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
You feel lucky punk? Well do you?


Yup! I do!

That's the spirit!

I don't care either way though - my point was that being forced to actually move out of a station and defend your structures in what might initially be a small scale fight - could well escalate and be fun for all ships and all sizes by the end :)


Seriously, if it works that way, I'll be thrilled. I enjoy all sorts of fights, small to massive tidi-fests. I also fly a lot of logi, so I always have stuff to do. But really, let's look at another model that was supposed to do exactly that: generate small-scale fights over localized points of control - one that some of the same people who are saying 'this will lead to trollceptors and not actual fighting' were saying would lead to interceptor antics and no real fighting:

How are those ESSs working out for inciting small-scale PVP while improving the value of null-space? I mean, they were supposed to get added for w-space and empire, right? Did they ever? Why would such a successful system not get the interative expansion that was planned?

Maybe... cuz it didn't work?

Similar mechanic is involved here: you can't warp away for X time.

Similar results will occur.
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1648 - 2015-03-04 18:24:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Karade
Hmm, not sure (still reading) - still seems a little too 'artificial' and a bit lacking in immersion, with the funky 'capture module'. I was really hoping to see you guys go more radical in terms of a 'free form' Sov model;

you know, leave the map drawing to the players, remove restrictions on 'building' structures (anyone, anywhere, by anybody) maybe after a year of actual occupancy (pilots in space/activity), Concord gives you a nod as to a 'flag' on the map...

Edit: Kinda more akin to RL 'Sov', which doesn't happen overnight....

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#1649 - 2015-03-04 18:24:50 UTC
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
i don't think we have to go all the way to NC. "being in sov should be the sole province of people with a titan" spartan 300 playacting online because they do not make xxxl size hoplite uniforms for you to playact irl to suggest that maybe if you want to challenge sov you should have to at least take on some tiny amount of risk


That's a better reply even with the play on the 300, I always found that rather cool that people called the defenders Spartans and then the number of people on that special SBU killmail was exactly 300, fate and all that.

Like many people I have no problem taking risk, and will at times expect to lose big time, the previous system was just no chance, of course I am realistic about you guys coming in with a big hammer, that's what big entities with lots of resources do, but when you have a chance you do, if you have 0 chance you don't...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Princess Cherista
Doomheim
#1650 - 2015-03-04 18:27:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Princess Cherista
Arrendis wrote:
How are those ESSs working out for inciting small-scale PVP while improving the value of null-space?


Most people i know tried to use and like ESS but it was just too annoying to deal with so they quit using it and accepted being taxed 5% by CCP for living in the most dangerous space What?
P'tank
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1651 - 2015-03-04 18:28:51 UTC
Since every single ship will be able to attack hostile Sov, every roam will be duncked as soon as it enters intel covered space. Sov holders won't tolerate any non-blue to fly around their space.

To be honest, I think this will kill casual (and most fun) pvp. There needs to be a way to identify a fleet as a sov tread or just a roam. Maybe introduce a specialised ship?

Recon ships might do (those which don't have a sov bonus), or HIC's ...
KC Kamikaze
Blue-Fire
#1652 - 2015-03-04 18:31:28 UTC
P'tank wrote:
Since every single ship will be able to attack hostile Sov, every roam will be duncked as soon as it enters intel covered space. Sov holders won't tolerate any non-blue to fly around their space.

To be honest, I think this will kill casual (and most fun) pvp. There needs to be a way to identify a fleet as a sov tread or just a roam. Maybe introduce a specialised ship?

Recon ships might do (those which don't have a sov bonus), or HIC's ...



That wouldn't work. Under the new mechanics when a fleet comes in and wants a fight and you don't give it to them they go after their station services and if you are in their primetime the station itself :)
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1653 - 2015-03-04 18:32:29 UTC
ESS is an embarassment. is it seriously still possible to put it inside an anomaly? why wasn't that fixed on the day of release?
Arrendis
TK Corp
#1654 - 2015-03-04 18:33:36 UTC
lilol' me wrote:
er mm have you checked the sov map lately? like northern associates?


Been down in NA. space a lot in the last few months. Querious, Immensea, Omist, etc...

So let's look at Querious.

Querious has 95 systems, with 30 stations. If you want to be able to defend all of Querious for 4 hours, you need to have at least 1 guy sitting on all of those structures w/a sov laser. You want to be pro-active here, because it only takes 2 minutes for a T2 module to cycle once, and then start rendering the structure vulnerable - if it's still vulnerable when Prime Time exits, it can still be attacked.

So that's 220 guys, right there.

What're they in? Carriers? Something big, so it can survive being attacked? Well, no remote assistance, so if it's going to work like that, you need to be able to defend yourself against what the other guy's going to bring to bare. So maybe something big.

And maybe your enemies use that knowledge to start killing your solo caps.

Ok, but obviously, your caps aren't required to remain solo - you can bring in 2 more carriers, and trade off on the defensive sov lasering. And now that you've jumped, the enemy flakes off into a different system.

How many capitals are you commiting to this? How many capital pilots are willing to just sit on their butts killing maybe a half-dozen cheap interceptors after 4 hours?

The capital blobs aren't going to be the hammer they've been.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1655 - 2015-03-04 18:35:22 UTC
my body is ready for maledictions online
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#1656 - 2015-03-04 18:35:26 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

In other words, a little off topic ranting is perfectly fine in a thread like this, taking it to far however, is not.

The Rules:
3. Ranting is prohibited.

A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counter productive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.


27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#1657 - 2015-03-04 18:35:46 UTC
So many nullbear tears, not enough buckets.

The Tears Must Flow

Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1658 - 2015-03-04 18:37:02 UTC
wait crap i don't think i have amarr frigate injected

oh dear
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1659 - 2015-03-04 18:37:03 UTC
lilol' me wrote:
er mm have you checked the sov map lately? like northern associates?


Yeah. Did you read the dev blog? Explain how NA.'s 9000 members will defend 500 systems every day during prime time? All the titan bridges and caps in the world will not allow NA. to project all 9000 members to every constellation that requires defense during every 4 hour window every single day. Supercap fleets will lock down one or two constellations at best. OR supercaps will be spread around to raise the cost/barrier to flip a constellation, while at the same time isolating them and making them vulnerable to anyone willing to commit to that cost.

And if NA. CAN, then power to them. They should be rewarded for their military effort with control over a lot of systems.
Kah'Les
hirr
Pandemic Horde
#1660 - 2015-03-04 18:38:09 UTC
You know NA. is just renters right?