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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1461 - 2015-03-04 15:34:07 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

The prospect of actually doing the work to show what is actually available as income seems to escaped you.


You've been shown it before, and you ignored it then too. *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Gypsien Agittain
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1462 - 2015-03-04 15:34:07 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:


CCP can ONLY solve the economic part AFTER they have changed the sov system. Not the other way around. Otherwise if they increase drastically the income without even knowing how big, spread or concentrated alliances will become, will be impossible for them to hit a correct spot on the economy.

It is a price that has to be paid. A small period where economic gains will not cover the needs.


A period when everybody looking forward to make money, and I mean "troopers" not alliances farming r64s nor elitist guys, aka pay for plexes, skills and ships will go back to highsec as running incursions or even lvls4 will be far better sources of income.
Even a six year old child could realize that the same space with the same rewards but with much more harassing and difficulties to live on it is gonna be a failure because of primal logic.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1463 - 2015-03-04 15:34:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
Miner Hottie wrote:
No longer can the CFC impose it's will with 1,000 megathrons, nor PL, strike fear into a sov holders heart with its super caps. No, now we must run around in interceptors and cruisers and engage in fights with similar ships in honorable brawl in some artificial node after we missed catching that last interceptor because CCP cares not about the relative advantages of living in the UK with a low ping vs being on the wrong side of the planet on ancient copper wires. We then dismount from our puny steeds after four hours of toil fending off the heathens looking for giggles, good fights and tears and mount up our trusty dusty mining ships to maintain the ancient honourable industry index which actually only measure rocks shot with a mining laser.

So maybe Goons have too much Sov to effectively hold at the moment and need to downscale?

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1464 - 2015-03-04 15:35:35 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
I've had a couple of people asking why I haven't commented. so here's the reason, and comments:

Reason: When it comes to Sov, I'm a completely outsider. I can comment on things like people saying 'Large battles are really dull to fight in' , but not so much on the day to day living in Sov. While I did comment on things as I saw them, everything was prefixed with "I don't live in null, so take with a dose of salt"

Comments: The changes look (from an outsider perspective) promising. That they'll up the quantity of conflict in Null, and hopefully push towards a balkanized Eve. I see both of these as good. While huge coalitions are 'efficient', they're not 'fun'. And big battles may be good for marketing, but they're not so good for the players relegated to being F1 monkeys.

I want to see changes with the industry index (and with mining in general, though that's a far bigger change than just changing what adjusts the indexes) but I don't see it as a blocking problem.

Maybe it's that I'm a vet, but I thought the fun was in th[OH GOD THE BEES I'M ALLERGIC]

Erasmus Grant wrote:
There should be a thing on eve bet to see how long it will take this to reach a 100 pages Pirate

Forum usage metrics show a threadnought rebalance is needed. In true CCP fashion, a posts-per-page increase to 100.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Arrendis
TK Corp
#1465 - 2015-03-04 15:37:01 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Well do as corbexx did for wormhole space, independently quantify the actual figures based on facts rather than assumptions, and have your CSM representative present these FACTS to CCP for evaluation.

If your contention is true, and a good argument is made beyond "I want more money! " then you may meet with success.


If you don't think Mynnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnna did this, you're nuts. CCP's acknowledged the problem more than once, they just don't have the solution yet.
Behr Oroo
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1466 - 2015-03-04 15:38:13 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Behr Oroo wrote:
So with the prime time thing... what stops a group from just making their prime the same as one of the big blocks like Goons or NC, or whoever.

Then you havent created content. Just a stalemate.



If you make your prime the SAME as the enemy then you will get ROLFSTOMPED! If you set your prime to ANY time other than your REAL prime you will not be able to defend and any small group will defeat you.


Not true. A small corp can set their time at same as a big block alliance. If you know you cant defend cause you will get blobbed. Then go threaten their space. They will have to defend, unless they wish to just swap space.
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#1467 - 2015-03-04 15:39:04 UTC
Will it be possible to contest an NPC entities sovereignty claim over a system, be it in Empire space or in 0.0 space ? Cool

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1468 - 2015-03-04 15:39:06 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Arrendis wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Well do as corbexx did for wormhole space, independently quantify the actual figures based on facts rather than assumptions, and have your CSM representative present these FACTS to CCP for evaluation.

If your contention is true, and a good argument is made beyond "I want more money! " then you may meet with success.


If you don't think Mynnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnna did this, you're nuts. CCP's acknowledged the problem more than once, they just don't have the solution yet.


The question is, did the data justify increasing income, If as you say he did this, then the conclusion would be that it did not. There are countless ways to make minor adjustments.

One does wonder why it is not possible to provide such generous SRP and fly supercarriers on the alliance payroll, in other areas of space. The income comes from somewhere.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Miner Hottie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1469 - 2015-03-04 15:39:43 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Miner Hottie wrote:
This proposal strikes me as a convoluted and artificial change, using cheap rehashed faction warfare mechanics, with null sec indexes from a long time ago.

This isn't honest development work, it barely rates as "rebalancing", it looks lazy and slapped together. Then polished with the wrong oil.

The changes are convoluted, because they force us to play a certain way: No longer can the CFC impose it's will with 1,000 megathrons, nor PL, strike fear into a sov holders heart with its super caps. No, now we must run around in interceptors and cruisers and engage in fights with similar ships in honorable brawl in some artificial node after we missed catching that last interceptor because CCP cares not about the relative advantages of living in the UK with a low ping vs being on the wrong side of the planet on ancient copper wires. We then dismount from our puny steeds after four hours of toil fending off the heathens looking for giggles, good fights and tears and mount up our trusty dusty mining ships to maintain the ancient honourable industry index which actually only measure rocks shot with a mining laser.

So maybe Goons have too much Sov to effectively hold at the moment and need to downscale?


Not really, it will all be timed to USTZ or EUTZ, I mean goons really only hold a lot of sov in 3 regions, Deklein, Vale and Pure Blind, elsewhere it's just the odd system.

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.
AlexKent
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#1470 - 2015-03-04 15:41:02 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Miner Hottie wrote:
No longer can the CFC impose it's will with 1,000 megathrons, nor PL, strike fear into a sov holders heart with its super caps. No, now we must run around in interceptors and cruisers and engage in fights with similar ships in honorable brawl in some artificial node after we missed catching that last interceptor because CCP cares not about the relative advantages of living in the UK with a low ping vs being on the wrong side of the planet on ancient copper wires. We then dismount from our puny steeds after four hours of toil fending off the heathens looking for giggles, good fights and tears and mount up our trusty dusty mining ships to maintain the ancient honourable industry index which actually only measure rocks shot with a mining laser.

So maybe Goons have too much Sov to effectively hold at the moment and need to downscale?


Maybe we should drop all of it and move near your highsec mission hub. That would be fun.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#1471 - 2015-03-04 15:42:06 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Well do as corbexx did for wormhole space, independently quantify the actual figures based on facts rather than assumptions, and have your CSM representative present these FACTS to CCP for evaluation.

If your contention is true, and a good argument is made beyond "I want more money! " then you may meet with success.


If you don't think Mynnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnna did this, you're nuts. CCP's acknowledged the problem more than once, they just don't have the solution yet.


The question is, did the data justify increasing income, If as you say he did this, then the conclusion would be that it did not. There are countless ways to make minor adjustments.


From what CCP's said in the past, it did. They just haven't decided to figure out how to improve the situation.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1472 - 2015-03-04 15:43:57 UTC
It disturbs me to see the use of broad usage statistics to make balance decisions and also validate them.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1473 - 2015-03-04 15:44:07 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Arrendis wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Well do as corbexx did for wormhole space, independently quantify the actual figures based on facts rather than assumptions, and have your CSM representative present these FACTS to CCP for evaluation.

If your contention is true, and a good argument is made beyond "I want more money! " then you may meet with success.


If you don't think Mynnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnna did this, you're nuts. CCP's acknowledged the problem more than once, they just don't have the solution yet.


The question is, did the data justify increasing income, If as you say he did this, then the conclusion would be that it did not. There are countless ways to make minor adjustments.


From what CCP's said in the past, it did. They just haven't decided to figure out how to improve the situation.


Well if it is so unbalanced, and they see the need to resolve the matter, one would hope it is high on their list of priorities, and a justified goal for research and resolution. Hopefully this new structure will give more tools and opportunities, and your CSM representatives can present data and ideas to help them achieve their goals.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1474 - 2015-03-04 15:44:53 UTC
So basically the only tweak I can spot being needed right off the bat is to either:

1: Keep the (short) range the same between the T1 and T2 Entosis links, forcing those wishing to capture in close.
2: Make the fitting requirements such that you can't quite manage to mount it on a frigate hull.

Not really a biggie, although it's a shame that the general population still hasn't figured out how to deal with interceptors yet

Those most worried about kiting interceptors just need to keep in mind that although a module you can mount on a ceptor may have incredibly long range... that doesn't mean your ceptor can target that far.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#1475 - 2015-03-04 15:46:44 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
One does wonder why it is not possible to provide such generous SRP and fly supercarriers on the alliance payroll, in other areas of space. The income comes from somewhere.


Ah, but you see, now you're conflating alliance income and player income. Alliance income comes from things like moon goo (which, in theory, could be mined and towered by a corporation of 1 guy, but that doesn't scale well up to 12,000 people trying to make money that way for themselves), and rental income - which doesn't even come from the space you're in, but the space other people are in.

I mean, let's face it, rental income is (like all rental income in the real world, up to and including property taxes) basically just extortion: 'give me money or we kick you out'. Now, the intention is that the renter is getting something for their money (as in the real world, like how property taxes often cover the costs of municipal services like fire, schools, police), but you're still not looking at money that's coming from the efforts of individual players and flowing into their pockets.

SRP doesn't come from ratting taxes.
Good Apollo BS4
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1476 - 2015-03-04 15:46:45 UTC
Think that the sov laser should slow a ships max speed by 50% to avoid roaming bands of ceptors being the new meta.
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
#1477 - 2015-03-04 15:48:38 UTC
Aryndel Vyst wrote:
CCP, can you please address the point to living in null sec?


You can shoot other players without CONCORD destroying you?
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1478 - 2015-03-04 15:49:03 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
One does wonder why it is not possible to provide such generous SRP and fly supercarriers on the alliance payroll, in other areas of space. The income comes from somewhere.


Ah, but you see, now you're conflating alliance income and player income. Alliance income comes from things like moon goo (which, in theory, could be mined and towered by a corporation of 1 guy, but that doesn't scale well up to 12,000 people trying to make money that way for themselves), and rental income - which doesn't even come from the space you're in, but the space other people are in.

I mean, let's face it, rental income is (like all rental income in the real world, up to and including property taxes) basically just extortion: 'give me money or we kick you out'. Now, the intention is that the renter is getting something for their money (as in the real world, like how property taxes often cover the costs of municipal services like fire, schools, police), but you're still not looking at money that's coming from the efforts of individual players and flowing into their pockets.

SRP doesn't come from ratting taxes.

That does seem logical, and may well be accurate, hopefully CCP have all the data to make valid decisions, and As mentioned above, I wish you well if it is required.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Igor Nappi
Doomheim
#1479 - 2015-03-04 15:52:20 UTC
I find it hard to believe that 0.0 income is too low considering there's currently people who are willing to pay somebody else for the right to use 0.0 systems.

Furthermore, I think that links must be removed from the game.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#1480 - 2015-03-04 15:53:10 UTC
Harrison Tato wrote:
Aryndel Vyst wrote:
CCP, can you please address the point to living in null sec?


You can shoot other players without CONCORD destroying you?


You can in low-sec and NPC null. So why hold sov?