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What rigs for Golem?

Author
Zorro's shadow
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1 - 2015-02-24 13:37:13 UTC
Currently I use a Golem against Angels.

What combination of rigs would be more efficient if I used 2 painters?

1. 2 rigors
2. 2 flares
3. One of both?

Would the best option change if I used 3 painters?

And ofcourse, I'm talking about T2 rigs.

Thanks for the advice!
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2015-02-24 13:52:05 UTC
2 rigors and use fury ammo
Zorro's shadow
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#3 - 2015-02-24 14:16:55 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
2 rigors and use fury ammo

Thanks!
Estella Osoka
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2015-02-24 14:44:11 UTC
None. Package it and sell it.
Zorro's shadow
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#5 - 2015-02-24 15:21:18 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
None. Package it and sell it.


So what ship do you advice?
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2015-02-24 15:41:48 UTC
The Golem is fine. A pair of Rigor rigs is fine. You could shift over to a Mach if you really wanted to, but training more than one top tier mission boat is a bit of a waste in my opinion. Train for something that's not missions, like exploration or PVP, and use the ISK from your missions to have fun.
Zorro's shadow
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#7 - 2015-02-24 16:51:56 UTC
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
The Golem is fine. A pair of Rigor rigs is fine. You could shift over to a Mach if you really wanted to, but training more than one top tier mission boat is a bit of a waste in my opinion. Train for something that's not missions, like exploration or PVP, and use the ISK from your missions to have fun.

Thanks!
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#8 - 2015-02-24 18:28:43 UTC
Zorro's shadow wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
None. Package it and sell it.


So what ship do you advice?


Not to say the golem is terrible. The issues with it are mostly just b/c it's a missile platform.

For example,
* tracking computers are easier to manage than target painters, which is significant if you plan on using tractor beams and salvaging drones
* guns don't require volley counting like missiles.
* higher end golem fits are significantly more expensive. 3 rf gyro, a burst II, and WS II run about 230mil. 2 t2 rigor + 3 CN ballistic controls run a little over 400mil.
* guns get pretty much all the hardwirings they need via slots 7, 9, and 10; leaving 6 for WS and 8 for whatever. If a missile boat takes WS it misses out on dps.
* turrets are usually preferred in incursions.

Granted, guns have their own set of issues they deal with, and as mentioned earlier, the golem will be fine for many intents and purposes.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#9 - 2015-02-25 03:08:39 UTC
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
The Golem is fine. A pair of Rigor rigs is fine. You could shift over to a Mach if you really wanted to, but training more than one top tier mission boat is a bit of a waste in my opinion. Train for something that's not missions, like exploration or PVP, and use the ISK from your missions to have fun.


mission skills are pvp skills too.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#10 - 2015-02-25 15:15:37 UTC
OP
What rigs depends on your fit and what ships you want to be most effective against.

In a Golem with torps fitting rigs for range or the use of an MJD can be considered a requirement.
If you do use the MJD then the rigors are best since the reduction in explosion radius helps against everything including the BS.

For Cruise missile fits it depends on which targets you want to tailor the ship to hit.
Damage rigs for BC & BS, Rigors for everything else since range is never an issue with the Golem and cruise missiles.

chaosgrimm wrote:
Not to say the golem is terrible. The issues with it are mostly just b/c it's a missile platform.

For example,
* tracking computers are easier to manage than target painters, which is significant if you plan on using tractor beams and salvaging drones
* guns don't require volley counting like missiles.
* higher end golem fits are significantly more expensive. 3 rf gyro, a burst II, and WS II run about 230mil. 2 t2 rigor + 3 CN ballistic controls run a little over 400mil.
* guns get pretty much all the hardwirings they need via slots 7, 9, and 10; leaving 6 for WS and 8 for whatever. If a missile boat takes WS it misses out on dps.
* turrets are usually preferred in incursions.

Granted, guns have their own set of issues they deal with, and as mentioned earlier, the golem will be fine for many intents and purposes.

If you have trouble with painters you are ...... well I guess I cannot say that here. Group your painters together with your weapons and problem solved. Not sure if you can stack therm in game I never tried it I always used a programmable mouse or keyboard for this.

The "issues" with volley counting are so blown out of proportion it is ridiculous. With torps you will never be able to hit a target far enough away that you will need to volley count. And with cruise you would only need to volley count for target over about 80k away. Even if you do not volley count the time difference in completing a mission is not more than a minute or two at max and if you are micro managing your missions to that point then you have other problems to worry about. Yes you do waste missiles but they are cheap so who cares. However since counting requires you to be paying attention to the game and actually have your brain engaged I can see how it is problematic for some.

Higher end Golem fits are no more or no less expansive than higher end fits for the other Marauders so what is your point here?
Marauders are expensive ships, if that is an issue then fly a regular BS and forget the Marauder.

Hard wires, while you are correct the real question is this If you are dedicating a clone to running missions on a specific hull or weapons type does this really matter other than the additional cost of the implant?

Incursions are an entirely different set of circumstances than running missions and what works best for them is not always true for missions. Again the differences between the insta hit of guns and the delay of missiles works out to maybe a minute or two for an entire mission. However even that is not always true as the ability to specifically tailor your damage output to the mission and in some cases the individual room means that in reality a missile boat can get through some missions faster than any of the gun platforms.

To be honest those who prefer the turret based platforms can and most likely will shoot this response full of holes, and I would agree with most of what they say. I started lvl 4 missions in a Domi, moved to a Hyperion, then an Apoc to try lasers, then onto the Raven to give missiles a try and finally settled on the Golem or the Rattlesnake depending on the mission.

So the real last word on all of this is fly what you like, after all this is supposed to be a game we play for fun.
If you are truly serious about running missions as quickly as possible then you will have multiple ships, one chosen and fit specifically for each of the NPC races and in that case none of this really matters all that much.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2015-02-25 16:51:48 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
mission skills are pvp skills too.

True. But if you are starting out in PVP I don't think going straight for a Mach is the best idea.
Estella Osoka
Perkone
Caldari State
#12 - 2015-02-25 20:12:53 UTC
Zorro's shadow wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
None. Package it and sell it.


So what ship do you advice?


Vargur, Paladin, or Kronos. My personal fave is the Paladin.
Novah Soul
#13 - 2015-02-25 20:38:17 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Zorro's shadow wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
None. Package it and sell it.


So what ship do you advice?


Vargur, Paladin, or Kronos. My personal fave is the Paladin.

This pretty much in most circumstances. Kronos with rails has some issues tracking, with blasters it has range issues. Vargur has range issues with autos and I have never tried artys (never cared for the cycle times). Paladin is locked into varying ratios of only EM/Therm damage but it is only really noticeably slow against angels. Tried Angel Extrav with it, went well enough until the bonus room when I felt like falling asleep trying to burn down the elite cruisers, lol.

Though the OP does mention he is using it against angels, so the vargur may be the correct call there anyway. Anything closer then around 40km is pretty handily melted.

A man is known by the quality of his friends. - Lex Luthor

chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#14 - 2015-02-26 02:24:57 UTC
Just a quick reiteration, Im not trying to say the golem is a horrible ship, just outlining some turret advantages.

Donnachadh wrote:

If you have trouble with painters you are ...... well I guess I cannot say that here. Group your painters together with your weapons and problem solved. Not sure if you can stack therm in game I never tried it I always used a programmable mouse or keyboard for this.

Just saying that using painters is more tedious than TCs, which can be an issue for a marauder if you are also micro managing tractor beams and salvages drones at the same time. cause effort. Not to say it cant be done, but its easier on turret boat. This in and of itself isnt a huge consideration, but turrets provide this within a package of L4 advantages that many players are drawn to, some of which are explained in the rest of the response.

Donnachadh wrote:

The "issues" with volley counting are so blown out of proportion it is ridiculous. With torps you will never be able to hit a target far enough away that you will need to volley count. And with cruise you would only need to volley count for target over about 80k away. Even if you do not volley count the time difference in completing a mission is not more than a minute or two at max and if you are micro managing your missions to that point then you have other problems to worry about. Yes you do waste missiles but they are cheap so who cares. However since counting requires you to be paying attention to the game and actually have your brain engaged I can see how it is problematic for some.

This is compared to guns where it's never an issue or even a consideration. Also, you do realize that 1-2 mins per mission, is quite a bit when you consider that its just the combat portion of the mission. If a mission has say.... roughly 10 mins of combat on a turret boat, you're saying it could potentially take you 12 mins i.e. 20% more time. And that is before considering that you will also be warping to and from the mission slower as a turret marauder setup can easily fit at least 1 warpspeed rig + a warpspeed hardwiring. In a turret boat you're making more with less effort. The issue isnt having the "brain engaged" during the mission, it's having it engaged prior to picking the mission setup i.e. working smarter, not harder.

Donnachadh wrote:

Higher end Golem fits are no more or no less expansive than higher end fits for the other Marauders so what is your point here?
Marauders are expensive ships, if that is an issue then fly a regular BS and forget the Marauder.

Hard wires, while you are correct the real question is this If you are dedicating a clone to running missions on a specific hull or weapons type does this really matter other than the additional cost of the implant?

Golem fits are more expensive compared to comparable turret fits. Faction weapon upgrades are more expensive as are the rigs. The point being that you get all the performance from a turret plaform at a lower cost. Lower cost means you have lower loss potential and initial investment.

The answer to hardwirings really depends on the player, so its not going to be the same for everyone. But at the end of the day, if you are a player who uses them, plans on using them, or simply likes having the option: Turrets have better hardwiring options.

Alternatively, you could look at it this way: If we were to compare the price of 3 RF gyro, Burst II, Hyperspatial II vs 3 CN Ballistic Controls and two T2 Rigors, the vargur setup could purchase a hardwiring like WS-615 with the money it saved.

Donnachadh wrote:

However even that is not always true as the ability to specifically tailor your damage output to the mission and in some cases the individual room means that in reality a missile boat can get through some missions faster than any of the gun platforms.

Just curious, what mission(s) specifically did you have in mind?

Donnachadh wrote:

To be honest those who prefer the turret based platforms can and most likely will shoot this response full of holes, and I would agree with most of what they say. I started lvl 4 missions in a Domi, moved to a Hyperion, then an Apoc to try lasers, then onto the Raven to give missiles a try and finally settled on the Golem or the Rattlesnake depending on the mission.

So the real last word on all of this is fly what you like, after all this is supposed to be a game we play for fun.
If you are truly serious about running missions as quickly as possible then you will have multiple ships, one chosen and fit specifically for each of the NPC races and in that case none of this really matters all that much.

Yeah, it's ultimately about what your priorities are and what you want to pilot. 100% agreed.

When the topic shifts to ship recommendations, pointing out some of the issues with the golem compared to turret based marauders is fair game. My personal favorites are the ac Vargur and the pulse Paladin. The Vargur has a really consistent feel, while the paladin has base resists that are better suited than the kronos in PvE.... + conflagration is amazing esp vs BR/Sansha
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#15 - 2015-02-26 04:22:07 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
Just saying that using painters is more tedious than TCs,

How can it be more tedious. If they are grouped you press one button on your mouse or keyboard and you get missiles AND target painters working all at the same time. Coincidentally this is exactly the same number of button presses it would take with turrets.


chaosgrimm wrote:
The answer to hardwirings really depends on the player, so its not going to be the same for everyone. But at the end of the day, if you are a player who uses them, plans on using them, or simply likes having the option: Turrets have better hardwiring options.

Do they really? You can get implants to boost damage, increase velocity, increase flight time, decrease explosion radius, increase explosion velocity and increase rate of fire. These implants affect every single aspect of missile performance and damage so how is it that turrets have a wider, or better selection of implants?

chaosgrimm wrote:
Just curious, what mission(s) specifically did you have in mind?

From a general perspective EVERY mission. To be more specific worlds collide, dread pirate scarlet, a case of kidnapping and desperate maneuvers just to name a few all have multiple NPC where the ability to tailor damage room to room gives an advantage to the missile platforms.

chaosgrimm wrote:
When the topic shifts to ship recommendations, pointing out some of the issues with the golem compared to turret based marauders is fair game. My personal favorites are the ac Vargur and the pulse Paladin. The Vargur has a really consistent feel, while the paladin has base resists that are better suited than the kronos in PvE.... + conflagration is amazing esp vs BR/Sansha

You may have a point here IF this was a topic about which ship was best. However the OP specifically asked for which rigs were better for the Golem as a mission ship, but as always happens with these it wandered of course and I suspect I have had a hand in that as well.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#16 - 2015-02-26 11:09:40 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:

How can it be more tedious. If they are grouped you press one button on your mouse or keyboard and you get missiles AND target painters working all at the same time. Coincidentally this is exactly the same number of button presses it would take with turrets.

That is... If you use 3rd party software... And I imagine you run into issues where you fire a volley that should be counted and do one or more of the following:
A) turn off the TPs before the missiles hit
B) TPs stay on but aren't reactivated properly when firing at your next target bc they were on CD.
C) forgo volley counting and just take the dps hit
D) correct issues of A and/or B with more micro managing

I'm not saying that a macro isn't beneficial, just that turrets don't need to concern themselves with this and don't lose dps in the process.

Quote:

Do they really? You can get implants to boost damage, increase velocity, increase flight time, decrease explosion radius, increase explosion velocity and increase rate of fire. These implants affect every single aspect of missile performance and damage so how is it that turrets have a wider, or better selection of implants?

Because you get similar results with turrets, only you use 3 slots instead of 5. For example, bullet velocity is instant regardless. Turret boats can kill 2-4 frigates with a rack cycle without considering exp velocity and radius. The real issue though is that your specific weapon system hardwiring (cruise/torps) is in slot 6 while the turret specific one is slot 10. What this amounts to is turrets getting something like ws-615 while not needing to give up their dmg hardwirings.

Quote:

From a general perspective EVERY mission. To be more specific worlds collide, dread pirate scarlet, a case of kidnapping and desperate maneuvers just to name a few all have multiple NPC where the ability to tailor damage room to room gives an advantage to the missile platforms.

I was curious because you said the golem's dmg selection might give faster clear times, but you also said missile delays could cause you losses of 1-2 mins. In worlds collide, I'd be a little surprised if you could beat a turret boat's mission time. Scarlet you could have a point on a full clear, but it is over as soon as she is killed. Speeding to room3, killing scarlet, and looting the implant pulls the isk/time. I either haven't done or can't recall the other 2 though, I can't really comment on them.

Quote:

You may have a point here IF this was a topic about which ship was best. However the OP specifically asked for which rigs were better for the Golem as a mission ship, but as always happens with these it wandered of course and I suspect I have had a hand in that as well.

OP's 3rd post
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#17 - 2015-02-27 05:58:16 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
[That is... If you use 3rd party software... And I imagine you run into issues where you fire a volley that should be counted and do one or more of the following:
A) turn off the TPs before the missiles hit
B) TPs stay on but aren't reactivated properly when firing at your next target bc they were on CD.
C) forgo volley counting and just take the dps hit
D) correct issues of A and/or B with more micro managing

The mouse and keyboards I have always used store all of this in flash memory and the only software needed is the one time only to write the programming to that flash memory. Bonus here is that no matter what computer I hook my keyboard and mouse to I have all of my macros with me.
Curious, I have never experienced any of these target painter issues. The target painters have always finished their cycle and shut off so they are always waiting patiently for the launchers to do the same.

We will have to agree to disagree on the implants. I do not use them and I can clear many of the mission faster than one of my best friends and his Paladin and he uses implants. Both of us are all level 5 skills for our respective weapons systems so that is not a factor.

chaosgrimm wrote:
I was curious because you said the golem's dmg selection might give faster clear times, but you also said missile delays could cause you losses of 1-2 mins.

Indeed, then you did not fully understand what I posted and perhaps that is my fault so allow me to re state that.
If all other things were equal the missiles could delay your missions completion by 1-2 minutes compared to the higher paper dps numbers of the average turrent based ship.
This all comes apart since you cannot alter your damage type and many missions have you hitting the NPC with the damage types that they have the greatest resistances. This factor often delays a turret based ships completion time for a mission to well beyond that of a missile ship. AS I have said there are mission that turn this around since the turret based ships are hitting the NPC in the resist holes so that paper dps has them completing the missions significantly quicker.


chaosgrimm wrote:
In worlds collide, I'd be a little surprised if you could beat a turret boat's mission time.

Ah but contrary to most people beliefs there are actually 5 different versions of the Worlds Collide mission each with a different combination of NPC.
2 of them have kinetic as primary, 2 of them have EM as primary and the 5th has thermal as primary.
In all 5 of these the different types of damage you need to shoot are split up into individual pockets. Missiles allows you to reload between pockets so no matter which of the 5 your are running and no matter which pocket you are in you are always hitting the biggest resist holes. The combination damage output nature of all turret based weapons means that no matter what ammo or crystals you are using a portion of your damage is being absorbed by the NPC's strongest resists. These factors can and often do allow a missile ship to complete missions faster than a turret based ship.

However, while this debate is fun and interesting it is for all practical purposed completly irrelevant as none of this is more important than flying the ships you like to fly.
stoicfaux
#18 - 2015-02-28 13:12:57 UTC
Rigor II > Flare II > Rigor I > Flare I

With 2x Rigor I + 5% dmg implant + 4 PWNAGE TPs, you'll be able to one shot all non-elite mission NPC cruisers.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2015-02-28 15:34:06 UTC
Might not be best to advertise the fact you use a programmable keyboard to do things that are not usually possible within the game as it is against ToS.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#20 - 2015-03-01 05:49:35 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Might not be best to advertise the fact you use a programmable keyboard to do things that are not usually possible within the game as it is against ToS.

I thank yo for the concern. If CCP wants to ban me for simply using a keyboard macro to turn on my TP at the same time as my missile launchers then so be it. Besides I do not see anything about this in the TOS so perhaps you have seen it elsewhere? If so I would appreciate a link.
http://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/eve-tos
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