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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Skill Points remapping/buying™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

First post First post
Author
Corinne Avuli
Herzogs Bombshelter
#21 - 2015-02-22 21:23:32 UTC
I would like a remap. But i would like it just once. Like CCP allows a remap of 2 mio SP for every 2 years a character plays. Like the Change of the attributes.

ATM your Char reaches 2 Years it allows you to remap 2 mio sp, you do not need to do it.
Atomeon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2015-02-22 23:12:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Atomeon
No to buying anything (SP, remap, reset etc).
Instead of that we have to get rid out learning implants, set all attributes to 28 -30 and pay isk the ppl who have implants for sale :P
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#23 - 2015-02-22 23:21:29 UTC
Not in favor of paying for SP, not in favor of paying for remaps, not in favor of attribute implants, not in favor of remaps, not in favor of attributes at all.

SP should accumulate at the same rate for all subscribers. Eve players should be encouraged to get out in space and interact with each other, with a focus on improving knowledge of game mechanics and player skill vice character skill. Character skill should be a steady and dependable thing, with no advantages to wealthier players (whether in game or out of game).

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#24 - 2015-02-22 23:30:51 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Wow you guys really are suckers for punishment. ShockedLol

It is of course, a big NO from me. So far, no one has shown any good reasons why this is needed and what it fixes.


/10char
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#25 - 2015-02-23 06:56:23 UTC
No to gameplay-related microtransactions. Nuff said.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#26 - 2015-02-23 08:31:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Ines Tegator wrote:
No to gameplay-related microtransactions. Nuff said.

That's funny. PLEX is a micro transaction... AURUM is a micro transaction.

FT Diomedes wrote:
Character skill should be a steady and dependable thing, with no advantages to wealthier players (whether in game or out of game).

Great - then we can get rid of PLEX as well since it gives advantages to older (wealthier) players.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#27 - 2015-02-23 08:46:52 UTC
What's interesting is that at one point both Clone Upgrade costs and the 30-day Skill Queue were both considered sacred, and untouchable. The reality has less to do with pay-to-win and micro transactions and more to do with the fact that established players who have invested years into EVE in training up their characters don't want to give up any advantage. It also competes with the character bazaar, so that's touched on a few nerves as well. Allowing SP for PLEX would probably impact PLEX prices, and this is probably the hidden reason most object: It would simply require more effort to play for free.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Anthar Thebess
#28 - 2015-02-23 08:58:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
No for pay to win!
People can already buy in game items and SP for real money. ($->PLEX->ISK ->stuff , characters)
We don't need to go more into this.
The only thing that can be accepted is renaming characters , but only if you are bought off market.
PREDATORoPL GALP
#29 - 2015-02-23 09:11:09 UTC
This changes destroy basic rule in this game.

NO for PAY to play ( or win )

older chars have more can more do in game or use ships.

after changes everyone with big real wallet get acces to everything.

at now many chars ( not old chars ) are specialized - pvp, pve, production, incursion, exploration, wh life, capital ship use.

CCP want waste and destroy all this what players create from years ?
Samillian
Angry Mustellid
Lost Obsession
#30 - 2015-02-23 10:02:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Samillian
I see no reason for a change to the skill system, it is reasonably fair and equitable and as far as I know cannot be gamed which makes it a rare thing in EvE.

As to the purchase of SP this is something I will always oppose. The removal of attributes and there replacement with a flat rate of SP gain would remove the need for Neural remaps.

NBSI shall be the whole of the Law

Beta Maoye
#31 - 2015-02-23 10:21:01 UTC
Ain't we already buying and selling skill points? The character bazaar has all kinds of SP packages for sale, jump freighter alt, flagship alt, industrial alt, wormhole alt, mission alt....etc. Player just have to pay and he will have a character that has skill points that needed months or years to acquire. So don't get nervous about skill points trading.

The bottom line is whether the SP market should be player driven or CCP provides. I want the SP market remains to be player driven. I would like a mechanic that can facilitate verteran players to sell skill points directly rather than selling their alts. Players are provided with tools to extract skill points from their characters and can give these skill points to other characters or put these skill points for sale in player market. Players who buy these skill points can apply them to whatever skills they like on a one time base. That way the number of skill points supplied will be limited by number of players and their time of investment in the game. Therefore the game will not be suddenly flooded with new players with tens of million of skill points, but also facilitates the trading of skill points among players. This skill points market will open door to other options such as ships/modules bundled with skill points for sale.

As regarding the remapping, I would like a one year trained equivalent of skill points remapping is available to all players per year for free. :)
Rendiff
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2015-02-23 12:09:32 UTC
The only way I would ever be okay with an SP remap would be if it cost a plex AND if there was a net loss of SP when they move to the new skill, for arguments sake let's 25%. So lets say you want to remap 100,000 SP, you'd lose 25,000 in the remapping process.

Any way of buying SP is totally unacceptable.
Alexhandr Shkarov
Theoretical Mass
Critical Effect
#33 - 2015-02-23 12:37:57 UTC
Hey!

I wrote a topic before (referenced in the OP) about newbro skill remaps, and while it may not be the best solution, I do think it's something to consider and carefully look for from a fresh perspective, rather than from the view of an experienced player. I have therefore felt the need to break your comment down a little, and give my vision on it.

Note: This post has been written purely out of the view towards newbro's younger than two months old.


Keras Authion wrote:

It removes the point of having skills to begin with.

This depends. In my opinion for anyone who is playing for a longer period of time, I feel it is something we need to look into as a potential idea that could lay ground to other idea's. In my eyes, it could be beneficial to couple the rookie chat and status with a single, once-per-account remap that you can do upto a certain amount of time. (So ex: A player has upto 2 months after starting to remap their skills. This does not impact the general gameplay significantly, but gives newbro's a potentional feeling that they aren't thrown into the deep instantly, which in turn may help with user retention.

Quote:

It removes the point of having attributes.
It removes attribute implants from the game.


This part of the game has been discussed by CCP and CSM9 in the Winter Summit:
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/csm/Meetings/summit/CSM9-WS-D1.pdf - Page 13.
Quote:
Removal of attributes was also mentioned, but the idea is still in quite an early stage. It’s something [CCP Games’ devs] want to do as it’s on the level as learning skills, so that people don’t have to get locked into training skills in a non-optimal order for use, in order to train at the optimal speed. There is still some discussion around what would possibly be done with learning implants (keep them, flat bonus, something else). There are also questions as to what the rate would be with the changes. Ali [Aras] brought up some feedback that some veteran players like the space it gives you to optimize your character, but overall supports removing attributes. There was also the point of learning implants [as a] disincentive [to] PVP, especially in null and WH.


The above quote directly comes from the meeting minutes. Potentially, the attributes may be removed completely if CCP pushes for it, which makes this argument moot.

Quote:
It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups.
It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character.
It removes planning and choice and consequences


If you indeed would implement paid remaps of skillpoints, you are correct. What I am advocating is to give newbro's a slight safety net that in the long run makes barely any impact but for a new player could mean the world. We allow them to learn about EVE instead of getting them stuck right off the bat.

In case of the newbro approach it would not, as it would still be a choice that is permanent in result, and requires planning and forethought. What you do help out with, however, is to help define that core principle of consequence by showing them how permanent it will be after they end their rookie period. Less of a cliff to get started, but still as much consequence for the long run.

Quote:
It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas.
It massively boosts older characters over new ones.

It helps new players to actually assess what they want to do, and feel like they can still change it once in order to get used to the game. That makes the idea of goal-setting, progression and achievement for the newbro's a lot better. But yes, do not use this for established characters, as it would be counterintuitive.

All my posts are on my personal title and should not be confused as me speaking for anyone else.

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#34 - 2015-02-23 12:42:15 UTC
As mentioned in all the linked previous threads I'm happy with the ay the system is now.

Regarding P2W elements are already in the game that support this to a degree, better ships, expensive faction and officer gear etc.

The current skill queue/remaps/implants setup is one of the few things that is not P2W in any way since you can't pay to be more skilled in a given skillset than another player. Even buying a pre-built character off the bazaar doesn't give you any more skills than a character with the same skillset, it just gives you them immediately (and someone else trained the character first). This in no ay gives a player the player learnt skills to use that character though.

So for me it's fine as it is, leave it alone please. Step away from the functioning area of the game, nothing to see here...
Wadiest Yong
Porcus Volans
#35 - 2015-02-23 13:16:22 UTC
This one really touches the core of the game, living with the consequences of one's choices. Granted, when you first start playing you do not really understand the extent of your choices, and new players are fooled by the number of skills and the apparent length of training times of their first skill queues (wait until you want or need jump drive calibration 5). Mitigating the consequences of choices by selling SP in any shape or form for cash is pay-to-win, and not very inventive from a game design perspective.

- Perhaps clearer guidance on training schedules (as we do in many corporations) would help people on their way better. Although the certificate system was reworked a while ago it still holds many irrelevancies, and above all, it is not set up in a way that actually guides newer players. Yes, a "start here" arrow on a flow chart could be a better approach. Not all handholding is bad, especially in a game with more skills than most other games. While I've always appreciated the fact that one gets more out of Eve (or any other serious game) by scanning the web for player written guides, it's not everybody's cup of tea to spend time on this.
- I've never heard of players quitting Eve for having to invest training time in new skills, so player retention is most likely not at stake here. That's why we have the character bazaar.
- Large alliances can (and most likely will) fund the remapping of SP for part of their troops if you allow SP for plex, making the (nullsec) game even more unbalanced than it already is (extra range on jump drives ? boost your blops fleet numbers ? extra supers ? increase capital production ?).
- Getting rid of learning implants ? Why ? These are tools that allow us to give some leverage to the choices we make as pilots. The rock-paper-scissors aspect of pvp is not only reflected in the way we chose and fit ships, but also in the SP we spent in the use of the hull and mods. Makes it more all the more interesting and challenging.
- Getting rid of attributes on skills and mods ? This takes away the freedom the learning implants give us to accomplish training goals faster.
- Getting rid of both attributes and learning implants takes away all leverage at the same time, and indeed starts forcing people into considering spending cash on skill points (I doubt skill ranks would be brought down, it wasn't in the csm minutes) because of - let's be honest - long training times. Great for extra income, terrible for the game. Being "locked into training skills in a non-optimal order for use, in order to train at the optimal speed" is not really a time issue for skills with ranks below say 6. It only becomes an issue when trying to specialize in several directions at the same time.
If I were to change anything, I'd give an extra attribute remap during the first two years of a character, and an extra one every two years afterwards to boost some more diversification. A second change could be to review the skill ranks.

But cash for sp ? Nah. P2W has no place in a subscription based game.
Celgar Thurn
Department 10
#36 - 2015-02-23 17:23:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Celgar Thurn
For the record I would NOT be in favour of introducing a method of buying skill points and/or skill remaps using any combination of ISK, Aurum, or 'real life' cash. I think the way we get remaps is fine as it is. I'm not entirely sure how I received mine but I have several unused remaps on each of my six chars/alts.

I have actually started using some of my chars remaps recently just in case CCP decide to ditch the attribute points and learning implants/implants. Use it or lose it as they say.

As usual our standard comment applies. Implants and attribute points are not broken and are working as intended. Please redirect man/woman hours to actual broken elements of the game or to introduce new content.
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#37 - 2015-02-23 19:06:43 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
What's interesting is that at one point both Clone Upgrade costs and the 30-day Skill Queue were both considered sacred, and untouchable.
False. Neither change was opposed by the player base at the level that the change contemplated itt is. Actually, many people were in favor of the two changes you cite. Also, it was a 24 hour limit and not a 30-day limit. Obvious misrepresentation and lack of knowledge. Your argument lacks validity.

Arthur Aihaken wrote:
The reality has less to do with pay-to-win and micro transactions and more to do with the fact that established players who have invested years into EVE in training up their characters don't want to give up any advantage.

Wrong once again. Such sp remapping would only benefit veteran players more because they would be able to skill into whatever meta was fotm so much easier, and even for caps, which no new player would ever be able to do.

Arthur Aihaken wrote:
It also competes with the character bazaar, so that's touched on a few nerves as well. Allowing SP for PLEX would probably impact PLEX prices, and this is probably the hidden reason most object: It would simply require more effort to play for free.
The character bazaar is not p2w. Someone created that character and had to spend time skilling the character. Someone had to keep the character active through subscription fees or plex. It is not play for free.

Your arguments are so bad you should feel ashamed that you ever posted. But I doubt you will.

Go back to wow, etc. X

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#38 - 2015-02-23 19:24:29 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Ines Tegator wrote:
No to gameplay-related microtransactions. Nuff said.

That's funny. PLEX is a micro transaction... AURUM is a micro transaction.


Neither of those directly affects gameplay. They would not be accepted by the EVE base otherwise.

Aurum directly caused the Jita Riots in fact. Or, to be more specific, the suggestion (in a leaked CCP email) that Aurum might eventually be used for things like ships and ammo. Using it as an example of a harmless MT shows that you don't know what you're talking about - we had to fight the company to make sure it stayed harmless.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Wild Geese.
#39 - 2015-02-23 19:39:23 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
There is no "right" or "wrong" answer with regards to skillpoints. Merely what you find relevant now and irrelevant later... good for X situation and bad for Y situation.
Either way, the power of the skills you train is always there. You just aren't using ALL of them at any given time (for whatever reason). And that is part of the "process" of this game.


Example: when I was young I trained up MINING skills. I was pretty good at it and had a decent skillplan incorporating mining with PvP skills.
Then one day I realized that I really did not like mining in any serious way and did not want those skills to be on my PvP character. So I abandoned the skillplan and focused purely on PvP.

Fast forward a few years... I have near perfect subcapital PvP skills... but the mining skills remain... a remnant of a different stage in my evolution in EVE.
Then mining barges were changed/buffed. I took a look at them... and I saw the Procurer.
If ever there was a bait ship, that was it. Tanky, could fit full tackle, everyone underestimated it, and it also had the capacity to kill "small threats."
I got 3.
Now I sometimes sit in a low-sec belt... mining... using those same skills that I had abandoned because I hated them and found little use for (at that time).


The point is... you never know when you will eventually find use for the skills that you trained before and find useless today. And since there is no cap on how many skills you can accumulate, sooner or later you may find yourself working on those skills you previously abandoned.
In a larger sense... no time is "wasted" training any particular skill.


Other things to consider:

- It will make newbies think that more SP = more powerful (which is not exactly true as I have pointed out consistently in my usual "Skillpoint Spiel" (see the link in my sig below)).

- Buying skillpoints deprives the newbie of the "process experience" of being new... which is necessary as it teaches newbies how to work with what they have rather than just throw money at a perceived "problem."

- It makes the beginning experiences of newbies MORE painful as they will "throw money" to get more SP and expensive ships... and then wind up losing it due to lack of experience (which is more rage worthy than losing a couple of cheapo frigates and cruisers that one has put only mild investment into).

- Older players (especially rich ones with access to gobs of ISK) will be able to afford more PLEXes (and thus skillpoints) than any newbie will and continue stay ahead in terms of total SP.

- Yes, yes... the Character Bazaar is technically a way to bypass training and get more SP for ISK... but it is more of a grudging necessity than a desired mechanic.
Players will always find ways to sell characters regardless of the legality of such a transaction (look at other games for good examples of this). So the best option for all parties is to "contain" and "regulate" the sales in-house so everyone is protected.
If there was a way to reliably prevent players from selling accounts then I'm sure that would have been the method used by CCP. The reality is that there isn't.

- Players did get concessions from CCP regarding micro-transactions during the Incarna fiasco. One of those concessions what that PLEX/Aurum would not be used in ways that would give a player a clear advantage over others just because they paid more money (see: gameplay advantages).
Granted... creating multiple accounts is also a gameplay advantage... but CCP doesn't see the difference (mechanically speaking) between an alt account and another player playing. In their eyes, it is no different than teaming up with another (actual) player... except a player using two accounts has to split his/her time and attention between both accounts and is thus less effective than two actual players.
Marsha Mallow
#40 - 2015-02-23 19:41:31 UTC
Good idea to consolidate these topics. If people do want to post about stuff like this, there should be a central thread they can refer to - if anything so they can see that the ideas have been around for a while and not have their head ripped off. Some of these topics might be worth linking in the stickies in New Citizens as ongoing discussions.

As for Buying SP, nope.

Being able to delete limited amounts of SP I'd support. People always remark that you should be stuck with your choices, because consequences/meaning yada yada but there are certain skills various starter alts came with by default that it'd be nice to be able to purge. I really hated having 12,559SP in missiles on one alt to the point I ended up spending a year training missiles just to tidy the skillsheet up. If you've invested the time into training a character then decide to delete some of your skillpoints to tidy the skillsheet up (or because you're ashamed you were once a dirty miner), I really don't see how that's anyone elses concern. The argument that you should be stuck with pointless SP as some sort of punishment for making training mistakes just smacks of pettiness from bitter old farts.

In terms of new players, there have been shifts over the years to try to either create a rounded starter character with 800k sp or offer accelerated learning with bonus remaps and implant accelerators. I'm still not sure the skillpath for new players is optimised to get them hooked and/or prevent them from making training errors.
Alexhandr Shkarov wrote:
In my opinion for anyone who is playing for a longer period of time, I feel it is something we need to look into as a potential idea that could lay ground to other idea's. In my eyes, it could be beneficial to couple the rookie chat and status with a single, once-per-account remap that you can do upto a certain amount of time. (So ex: A player has upto 2 months after starting to remap their skills. This does not impact the general gameplay significantly, but gives newbro's a potentional feeling that they aren't thrown into the deep instantly, which in turn may help with user retention.

That sounds alright to me. A one off after two months would only be around 4mil or so SP, it's not gamebreaking. If people start off and decide to try a bit of everything then settle on a specific playstyle, they bitterly resent what they consider 'wasted SP' and I can't really blame them. I suspect this is something vets forget as the more you SP you accumulate the less relevant the trash becomes. Obviously you can try to point out to newer players that the SP isn't wasted if they've used it to try different playsyles, but yelling "HTFU noob" isn't exactly constructive. Frustration over training in the early stages does appear to impact retention rates so I don't see any harm suggesting tweaks.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day