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Skill Points remapping/buying™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#1 - 2015-02-22 11:57:52 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
As some of the more veteran members of the forums may be aware, the topic of SP remapping and/or buying is a very common one, and has been for years and years. It shows up in all sorts of subforums, and has been discussed very thoroughly because of the number of times it's been brought up over a long period of time. Because of this, new threads on it immediately run into rule #17 of the forums:

Quote:

Forum rules

17. Redundant and re-posted threads will be locked.

As a courtesy to other forum users, please search to see if there is a thread already open on the topic you wish to discuss. If so, please place your comments there instead. Multiple threads on the same subject clutter up the forums needlessly, causing good feedback and ideas to be lost. Please keep discussions regarding a topic to a single thread.


For almost all other topics, invoking rule #17 means actually redirecting the discussion to an already existing thread about it. Due to its oft-reposted nature, though, this has not been possible for threads about SP remapping and/or buying. That's not fair to people who actually wish to discuss it, and we do not wish to stifle good discussions.
Because of this, we are creating this centralized Official Skill Points remapping/buying™ thread to serve as the gathering place for discussion about it. Any future threads on this same topic will be locked and redirected here for discussion.

To emphasize: this thread is on the topic of balance, changes, or feedback on the mechanic of remapping and/or acquiring Skillpoints in different ways than the current game mechanics allow. Posts outside this topic will be moderated/deleted.

Please keep the discussion and feedback civil and constructive!

A list of relatively recent threads on the topic and related ones for reference:
- [New Player Experience] - Idea/Suggestion: One-time Skillpoint Remaps?
- Use PLEX for SP boost
- Neural Remapping Improvements
- Remapping and implants alternative
- attributes / implants - some ideas
- Activities effect training time..
- PLEX for Bonus Neural Remaps?
- NEW Implant Idea
- Skill Point Flexibility
- Un-training skills
- Lost Training Time
- Remove training bonus implants
- More skills
- Attributes

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Oscae
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2 - 2015-02-22 12:12:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Oscae
Hey look Ma I made it to the top of a thread!

In other news, I personally think that this would be a godsend, as I have a habit of not making alts, so my one character now has really poor industry skills and just random other junk that I wish I hadn't trained cause now I'm never going to use them.

I think it should be quite costly however, but also proportionate to the ammount of SP wishing to be reallocated, a 6month toon shouldn't have to pay half a billion to remap 2mil SP and a 10 year vet shouldn't be able to remap 100mil SP for the same price.

There is a closed thread just below called PLEX for SP boosting, though instead of boosting how about remapping? I think this could work, you could redeem plex into SP tokens of differing values etc. 1, 5, 10mil SP remaps, have them market tradeable and such, just a thought

Lastly I appreciate the creation of these centralised threads, hopefully we'll see something good come from them

Oscae
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#3 - 2015-02-22 12:21:39 UTC
This will be a useful consolidation of the discussion. Now let's all be happy constructive posters! Big smile

ISD Decoy

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Aran Hotchkiss
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#4 - 2015-02-22 12:33:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Aran Hotchkiss
I'm going to keep this brief, because I really don't want to let myself get snared into this topic.

Firstly, is the ^ idea of PLEX/isk (reasonable to treat the two as interchangeable) for SP re-allocation favours wealthier players - they are much more readily able to keep their SP pool as a constantly shifting, constantly min-maxxed to follow whatever the flavour of the month is. Pay to Win has been thrashed to death so hard, that the coprse of the horse is gone and there is now a huge open-cut strip mine in place from all the whip strokes deeper than that hole in Russia that goes several kilometres down.

Secondly EvE loves attaching consequences to action/failure to action, and personally I quite like it - adds a bit of delayed gratification to things rather than going "Hmmm, I want to fly vagabonds but I can't, I know I'll remapp those skillpoints I spent almost getting into exhumers and be away with it" and I fully expect if that were possible I'd get bored of vagabonds very quickly and end up just doing what everyone else would do and follow the flavour of the month. I spent what to me was a long time getting into guardians with logistics five, I'm yet to actually fly one in any sort of fleet because reasons but meh that's life. Having to stick to your choices adds Stoicism to a game that really can be quite callous. So I ultimately feel this negatively affects the players of the game in terms of patience and satisfaction by replacing delayed gratification with instant gratification. (Just realised this point was mostly anecdotal. Meh.)

Thirdly... Character Bazaar's exist as a, if not ideal, then possible and established alternative, that currently function under the status quo.

So, in order, paying for remapping is Pay to win, trashes the game, and alternatives exist.

You should have enough control over your herd of cats to make them understand. If they constantly make misstakes, get better cats.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#5 - 2015-02-22 12:46:11 UTC
Wow you guys really are suckers for punishment. ShockedLol

It is of course, a big NO from me. So far, no one has shown any good reasons why this is needed and what it fixes.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#6 - 2015-02-22 12:53:15 UTC
Might as well throw out a "Space Barbies" thread so we can knock out the last super-redundant topic here in F&I as well.

As to the topic I have very rarely heard worse ideas in my whole life, and I'm in the freaking Army for goodness sakes.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Discomanco
We pooped on your lawn
#7 - 2015-02-22 12:55:48 UTC
With this and the AFK Cloaking thread, the forums should almost be cleansed up, until a new T3 Battleship sticky thread shows up Big smile

Also, a No from me as well. EVE has always been unforgiving, why should that change?
You were a rookie and were not sure how to train, and it became a failure/mess? We've all been there, and EVE has been unforgiving for all of us. No reason to change that, and with the increasing amount of non-ISD helpers in the rookie help channel as well, there's a lot of guidance available.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2015-02-22 14:39:17 UTC
No from me still, pay to win is bad.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
FireFrenzy
Cynosural Samurai
#9 - 2015-02-22 15:11:25 UTC
Reported for redundant

Also Pay to win

Also dumbass idea
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#10 - 2015-02-22 15:21:57 UTC
Just because other games have it, doesn't means EVE has to have such thing.

Never liked this idea in any form realy.

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#11 - 2015-02-22 15:42:52 UTC
FireFrenzy wrote:
Reported for redundant
Which it is not. As to why this thread was opened, I gladly re-post something I previously stated in the thread on (AFK)Cloaking (albeit rephrased a little):

The reason this thread was started does have something to do with our work, as reports to us on *new* Skill Point remap/buying threads have been a regular occurrence.
We also get complaint reports sent to us and CCP on a regular basis by the people whose threads on the subject we have closed, asking the question on were to discuss it then. Whether we find the subject worth a discussion or even holding merit is irrelevant, others do think so and continue to bring up the subject, so to a certain extend they do have a point.

So in short we judged it best to have one focal point, one open thread on the subject. And that, indeed, saves us work in the long run.
It also saves frustration by the people that do want to discuss this topic, which in the end is even more important.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#12 - 2015-02-22 16:06:37 UTC
Oh damn... Please no PLEX/ISK for skillpoints. 1 extra remap per year for a PLEX would be ok, buying skillpoints would ruin EVE on the long run.

You really don't want to do this.

Pay to win comes to mind.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
FireFrenzy
Cynosural Samurai
#13 - 2015-02-22 16:12:47 UTC
And mister ISD man, i recognize what you are attempting to do and I applaud it for a noble intention. Removing all the useless topics that we report as useless on a daily basis is laudable. Maybe even more then merely laudable...

But making a big place where people can dump trash instead of sorting it in a bunch of smaller places doesn't stop it from A) being a trash heap and B) from dumb people opening up more useless topics like we saw with the whole cloaking thing.

People were still opening up cloaking topics like noone's business... Hence i stand by my reporting of the thread for redundant while lauding the existence of the thread in theory.

Keep up the good work...
Solairen
Matsuko Holding
#14 - 2015-02-22 16:54:10 UTC
Man I like all these ISD consolidation threads. Makes it easier to find old threads on ideas, and keeps clutter down.

Keep up the good work guys - looking forward to seeing more of them in the future.
Keras Authion
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#15 - 2015-02-22 17:03:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Keras Authion
Posting the Tippia's copypasta for why buying or remapping skillpoints is bad

It removes the point of having skills to begin with.
It removes the point of having attributes.
It removes attribute implants from the game.
It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups.
It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character.
It removes planning and choice and consequences.
It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas.
It kills character trading.
It massively boosts older characters over new ones.
It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do.

Edit: Here's the old microtransactions vote thread from late 2010, made after the SP reallocation hit the sisi and there was plans for plex for remaps. Note the vote distribution.

This post was rated "C" for capsuleer.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#16 - 2015-02-22 19:51:29 UTC
Good to have this topic consolidated in one place so the Devs know where to go if they ever need reminding what a terrible idea this is.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#17 - 2015-02-22 19:57:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Debora Tsung
I'm a genius, I liked and then unliked this thread just so I can show I'll never support this idea. ever.

EDIT: It feels like my own little dislike button.

EDIT2: ISD ERZWAL I see what you did there. Cool

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#18 - 2015-02-22 19:59:17 UTC
Oscae wrote:
In other news, I personally think that this would be a godsend, as I have a habit of not making alts...


but others do..

Nope!

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Zepheros Naeonis
TinklePee
#19 - 2015-02-22 20:15:49 UTC
IF SP could be bought(aka pay to win), I would quit. No questions asked.

Big f'n no from me.
FireFrenzy
Cynosural Samurai
#20 - 2015-02-22 20:43:24 UTC  |  Edited by: FireFrenzy
At some point fozzie or rize (i think) said he'd like to add a "declare war" or "put bounty" button on posts instead of a "-1" button...

Wonder if that'd allow you to declare war/place bounty on the ISD:) (assuming that ever became a thing o:-D )

That said i do like how Mr ISD man liked the post in which i explain why i feel this thread is stupid and wrong!

Thanks Mister ISD man!
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