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Latest CSM notes : Rumours of attribute points/implants being removed.

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Mag's
Azn Empire
#1021 - 2015-02-17 11:51:09 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
They only get "shafted" (for 5%, nice hyperbole)
You keep mentioning this 5%. But in this very thread it was shown that it can in fact be upwards of a 50% gain.

My point here isn't to say you are wrong, but that simply brandishing a figure like that means nothing.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Tia Aves
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#1022 - 2015-02-17 11:51:41 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Tia Aves wrote:
Snip.


Sounds like "it would favour me personally if they got removed".

Are you using learning plants as you pvp?



Depending on how they were removed it may or may not benefit me personally. Can't speculate on what CCP would do if they did remove them.

And I sometimes do. Whether I have them in or not is usually more dependent on whether I can be bothered or remember to go buy them. At the moment I am not using any implants at all as I keep accidentally destroying clones during clone jump despite the warning box.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#1023 - 2015-02-17 11:52:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
Dave Stark wrote:
and we're back to "i had to endure a bad system, so do new players".

that's really not a good justification for keeping a bad system.



Not at all, it's a "for people who are willing to put in extra effort, planning and/or risk there's a 5% training bonus. For everyone who can't be bothered there isn't".

People make it seem as if 2700sp/h is the base number somehow. It's not, it's the ideal number which is something entirely different.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1024 - 2015-02-17 11:52:47 UTC
Trust is on tilt and not thinking straight. Gregor is on a witch hunt for no apparent reason.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
#1025 - 2015-02-17 11:54:36 UTC
Mag's wrote:
xxxTRUSTxxx wrote:
the system works fine, you suggest it isn't.
It works fine for me, because I only have level 5 games to play in regards to skill training atm. But working fine for me, doesn't mean whole lot in the grand scheme of things.

I can however, see there is a discrepancy between how the system treats me and new players. Even if I like the current system. But then my likes for it, may be rooted in how long I've played.


i could say the very same.
Blacksuns
Doomheim
#1026 - 2015-02-17 11:56:13 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
Trust is on tilt and not thinking straight. Gregor is on a witch hunt for no apparent reason.


Perhaps. Or they are just defending their market income. Evil
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#1027 - 2015-02-17 11:56:15 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
They only get "shafted" (for 5%, nice hyperbole)
You keep mentioning this 5%. But in this very thread it was shown that it can in fact be upwards of a 50% gain.

My point here isn't to say you are wrong, but that simply brandishing a figure like that means nothing.


The 5% mentioned is based on the "newbies lose out on so much" that Dave brought up, after which I made up a perfectly good "newbie build" to 8 mil SP showcasing 5% total difference (again, not assuming implants which would make the percentage lower) between a base perc/int and completely using up all 3 remaps.

I'm not stating that it would only be 5% everywhere, that would be silly.
Dave Stark
#1028 - 2015-02-17 11:58:15 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
and we're back to "i had to endure a bad system, so do new players".

that's really not a good justification for keeping a bad system.



Not at all, it's a "for people who are willing to put in extra effort, planning and/or risk there's a 5% training bonus. For everyone who can't be bothered there isn't".

People make it seem as if 2700sp/h is the base number somehow. It's not, it's the ideal number which is something entirely different.


there's no extra effort in "planning" a skill plan. stop pretending there is.

when you've been playing for a few years, 2700 is the base number - because you're no longer having to train off-remap skills that are pretty much essential to flying ships. you've got all your navigation skills, your core skills, your tank skills, etc. you can just focus on cross training your hulls and guns so you have more diversity in your engagement profile.
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
#1029 - 2015-02-17 11:59:49 UTC
Blacksuns wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
Trust is on tilt and not thinking straight. Gregor is on a witch hunt for no apparent reason.


Perhaps. Or they are just defending their market income. Evil


you'll never know. Roll lol
Lei Merdeau
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
#1030 - 2015-02-17 12:07:04 UTC
When I started, before remaps, but after a lot, I (newbie) googled optimal faction/clan (so advantage over many vets) but rejected Caldari and then prioritised learning skills = a civ shield booster on an armour tank made sense for months. Another example of warped priorities.

Could make base attributes optimal for whatever skill trained, then plus attribute implants.
No disadvantage, and new players training faster than we did isn't a bad thing.

Then add more slot 1-5 implants that aren't attribute based giving more choices.
Then its up to the market if attribute implants collapse or not. C'est la EVE.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#1031 - 2015-02-17 12:08:41 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
and we're back to "i had to endure a bad system, so do new players".

that's really not a good justification for keeping a bad system.



Not at all, it's a "for people who are willing to put in extra effort, planning and/or risk there's a 5% training bonus. For everyone who can't be bothered there isn't".

People make it seem as if 2700sp/h is the base number somehow. It's not, it's the ideal number which is something entirely different.


there's no extra effort in "planning" a skill plan. stop pretending there is.

when you've been playing for a few years, 2700 is the base number - because you're no longer having to train off-remap skills that are pretty much essential to flying ships. you've got all your navigation skills, your core skills, your tank skills, etc. you can just focus on cross training your hulls and guns so you have more diversity in your engagement profile.


That either happened by training up all int/mem etc first (which is a choice) or by having so much SP that you pretty much have "everything at 5" and that that point the only things left training for will have no impact on gameplay compared to newer players.
Tia Aves
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#1032 - 2015-02-17 12:09:10 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
and we're back to "i had to endure a bad system, so do new players".

that's really not a good justification for keeping a bad system.



Not at all, it's a "for people who are willing to put in extra effort, planning and/or risk there's a 5% training bonus. For everyone who can't be bothered there isn't".

People make it seem as if 2700sp/h is the base number somehow. It's not, it's the ideal number which is something entirely different.


there's no extra effort in "planning" a skill plan. stop pretending there is.

when you've been playing for a few years, 2700 is the base number - because you're no longer having to train off-remap skills that are pretty much essential to flying ships. you've got all your navigation skills, your core skills, your tank skills, etc. you can just focus on cross training your hulls and guns so you have more diversity in your engagement profile.


Also newer players training stuff here there and everywhere would have to buy a full set of +5's, where older players only have to fly around with 2 of them which match their current specialised remap.

So new players have to spend more, to get a slower training time than an older player achieving max SP/hr for less ISK. Hmm sounds a bit borked to me.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#1033 - 2015-02-17 12:10:28 UTC
Tia Aves wrote:
Also newer players training stuff here there and everywhere would have to buy a full set of +5's, where older players only have to fly around with 2 of them which match their current specialised remap.

So new players have to spend more, to get a slower training time than an older player achieving max SP/hr for less ISK. Hmm sounds a bit borked to me.


Your logic is hilariously dumb.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1034 - 2015-02-17 12:11:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
+4 on HG sets is kind of nice, for PVE types who don't have to worry about PVP. I recently started going out in a Golem in high sec for kicks, which I haven't done in a few years... I'm thinking pirate sets are a nice blend of training and PVP, and worth their cost.

I'm not sure if the statistic is still valid, but if it's true that a lot of players (possibly the majority) are high sec lurkers who level up their Raven, something like attributes added to more implants is a nice option.

A blend of attributes into every type of implant in slots 1-5. A new tier / class of implants, perhaps.

HG sets without attribute bonuses would be nice, too.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
#1035 - 2015-02-17 12:13:40 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
Trust is on tilt and not thinking straight. Gregor is on a witch hunt for no apparent reason.


rain we all faced the very same training when we begun the game. i'm confused as to why some think it's a factor in retaining new players when most if not all of the new players know nothing about the remaps or implants within the first month or so, some even longer than that.

i guess i see 8 days as nothing and in no way effects new guys sticking around.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1036 - 2015-02-17 12:15:31 UTC
Tia Aves
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#1037 - 2015-02-17 12:15:41 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Tia Aves wrote:
Also newer players training stuff here there and everywhere would have to buy a full set of +5's, where older players only have to fly around with 2 of them which match their current specialised remap.

So new players have to spend more, to get a slower training time than an older player achieving max SP/hr for less ISK. Hmm sounds a bit borked to me.


Your logic is hilariously dumb.


Sorry man there isn't even any logic attempted in your posts so I'm not going to put the effort into constructing a reply any longer than this one.
Dave Stark
#1038 - 2015-02-17 12:16:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Gregor Parud wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
and we're back to "i had to endure a bad system, so do new players".

that's really not a good justification for keeping a bad system.



Not at all, it's a "for people who are willing to put in extra effort, planning and/or risk there's a 5% training bonus. For everyone who can't be bothered there isn't".

People make it seem as if 2700sp/h is the base number somehow. It's not, it's the ideal number which is something entirely different.


there's no extra effort in "planning" a skill plan. stop pretending there is.

when you've been playing for a few years, 2700 is the base number - because you're no longer having to train off-remap skills that are pretty much essential to flying ships. you've got all your navigation skills, your core skills, your tank skills, etc. you can just focus on cross training your hulls and guns so you have more diversity in your engagement profile.


That either happened by training up all int/mem etc first (which is a choice) or by having so much SP that you pretty much have "everything at 5" and that that point the only things left training for will have no impact on gameplay compared to newer players.


the latter, i think this character is at like 70m sp or something silly now, i checked this morning and for the life of me can't remember the exact figure. over 70m though. think i worked it out at like 2400 sp/hour over the lifetime of the character.

yes, i trained a bunch of stuff off remap but i do that these days because i'm at the point where i mostly just want another rank of an off remap skill here or there (bit of extra scanning probe strength now i'm dabbling in exploration etc) but i'll very rarely train a rank V skill off remap. oh, and there was that one time when i lost a rank V skill because i forgot to update my clone and it was a prerequisite for a ship i flew quite a lot so i had to retrain it (off remap).

however what i personally train doesn't really matter. the fact remains new players either have to accept lower training times than what i, and many other veterans, are currently experiencing due to our masses of already accumulated SP, or forego training pretty essential skills just to enjoy the same level of SP/hour.

i simply don't think that new players either being 'locked' in to one set of skills, or simply having to accept lower training times is good for the game. especially when CCP are trying to put a real effort in to attracting and retaining new players.
yeah, i suffered it, you suffered it... but there's really no reason why new players have to suffer it too - what does that actually achieve?
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#1039 - 2015-02-17 12:16:12 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
+4 on HG sets is kind of nice, for PVE types who don't have to worry about PVP. I recently started going out in a Golem in high sec for kicks, which I haven't done in a few years... I'm thinking pirate sets are a nice blend of training and PVP, and worth their cost.

I'm not sure if the statistic is still valid, but if it's true that a lot of players (possibly the majority) are high sec lurkers who level up their Raven, something like attributes added to more implants is a nice option.

A blend of attributes into every type of implant in slots 1-5. A new tier / class of implants, perhaps.


Combat implants are a form of pay2win, many things are of course (in a way) but if we're talking about getting MORE newer players into PVP then it probably wouldn't help if more established players run around with funky implants.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1040 - 2015-02-17 12:19:30 UTC
yeah I edited that to include a suggestion for pirate sets that didn't have attribute bonuses.

The nice ones, though... the HGs with +4 are perfect for high sec lurkers, was my main point.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)