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Latest CSM notes : Rumours of attribute points/implants being removed.

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Otlichnick
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#861 - 2015-02-14 20:55:43 UTC
I cant speak for anyone but my self but i would like to make a few points concerning this topic.

1: Yes It is very frustrating to find out a year and a half later that something you were doing wasn't optimal.
-> BUT that is what makes this game continually interesting!!! DON'T MAKE THIS A DUMB GAME.
-> If there wasn't the huge need for knowledge in this game about how this game works ( because everyone "gets" it)
you would lose most of your intelligent player base. There would be less obvious "leaders of corps" as they would know
and be on a equal level as all the players in the corp. DON'T MAKE THIS A DUMB GAME

2: OMG the rush i get when i have 600m in implants and im fighting in a 35m isk ship! I doubt my blood pressure would rise at all
if i stood to lose nothing (35m). The Implants give not only a edge in fighting/scanning/or whatever you do, they also add to the
overall "EVE feeling" this game gives. Undocking in a empty system with a full set of slaves is still risky!! OMG SYSTEM CRASH
LOG ON QUICK TO SEE IF I SURVIVED ****! ****! ****! haha That's FUN.

3. Right now I have PLENTY of ISK to buy +4's or +5 but im flying with +3's for 2 reasons.
-> THE REASONS DON'T MATTER. Its part of the game to make educated decisions on a daily basis!
-> The removal of areas to "Think about the game and make decisions according to your surroundings" is and always will be
A BAD IDEA.


So as you can see even the smallest mechanic in this game may provide tons of "micro" fun which EVE is made up of.
I fear there are some people pushing CCP in to creating another run of the mill game that appeals to kids.

Even in the simplest games there will be people that completely get dumbfounded by the way it works.
If the game was so easy they can play it and succeed you wouldn't need to change the game anymore and there would be no need for staff or developers anymore. It would be an out of the box plug me and and lvl up to 99 and get bored but keep playing because it makes me feel good to be the most maxed skilled in game, WOW what a good game that would be.

In a game where you can have all skills maxed and still fail.. That's a REAL game. Keep it that way!
Pok Nibin
Doomheim
#862 - 2015-02-15 00:06:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Pok Nibin
Otlichnick wrote:
I cant speak for anyone but my self ... Undocking in a empty system with a full set of slaves is still risky!! OMG SYSTEM CRASH LOG ON QUICK TO SEE IF I SURVIVED ****! ****! ****! haha That's FUN.
You have a funny idea of fun. I know a guy that watches them unload produce at Publix. Let's use HIS idea of FUN!
Weee haaaa!
Otlichnick wrote:

3. Right now I have PLENTY of ISK to buy +4's or +5 but im flying with +3's for 2 reasons....
Ummm...you said "risk"...You almost had me till this.
Otlichnick wrote:
So as you can see even the smallest mechanic in this game may provide tons of "micro" fun which EVE is made up of. I fear there are some people pushing CCP in to creating another run of the mill game that appeals to kids.
For you to fear this means you think how YOU push will push CCP into something - the other guy is pushing so you have to push back 'cause CCP will fold like a cheap suit. "Smallest mechanic?" Obsession with detail is the bugaboo of the tiny mind.
Otlichnick wrote:

Even in the simplest games there will be people that completely get dumbfounded by the way it works.
If the game was so easy they can play it and succeed you wouldn't need to change the game anymore and there would be no need for staff or developers anymore. It would be an out of the box plug me and and lvl up to 99 and get bored but keep playing because it makes me feel good to be the most maxed skilled in game, WOW what a good game that would be. In a game where you can have all skills maxed and still fail.. That's a REAL game. Keep it that way!

Okay well. Now it's plain you're another of the masses who is afraid of change. I hope that works out for you.
Life is change.

The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#863 - 2015-02-15 05:54:23 UTC
Pok Nibin wrote:
Otlichnick wrote:
I cant speak for anyone but my self ... Undocking in a empty system with a full set of slaves is still risky!! OMG SYSTEM CRASH LOG ON QUICK TO SEE IF I SURVIVED ****! ****! ****! haha That's FUN.
You have a funny idea of fun. I know a guy that watches them unload produce at Publix. Let's use HIS idea of FUN!
Weee haaaa!
Otlichnick wrote:

3. Right now I have PLENTY of ISK to buy +4's or +5 but im flying with +3's for 2 reasons....
Ummm...you said "risk"...You almost had me till this.
Otlichnick wrote:
So as you can see even the smallest mechanic in this game may provide tons of "micro" fun which EVE is made up of. I fear there are some people pushing CCP in to creating another run of the mill game that appeals to kids.
For you to fear this means you think how YOU push will push CCP into something - the other guy is pushing so you have to push back 'cause CCP will fold like a cheap suit. "Smallest mechanic?" Obsession with detail is the bugaboo of the tiny mind.
Otlichnick wrote:

Even in the simplest games there will be people that completely get dumbfounded by the way it works.
If the game was so easy they can play it and succeed you wouldn't need to change the game anymore and there would be no need for staff or developers anymore. It would be an out of the box plug me and and lvl up to 99 and get bored but keep playing because it makes me feel good to be the most maxed skilled in game, WOW what a good game that would be. In a game where you can have all skills maxed and still fail.. That's a REAL game. Keep it that way!

Okay well. Now it's plain you're another of the masses who is afraid of change. I hope that works out for you.
Life is change.



If you are too afraid to pvp with implants don't use them.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#864 - 2015-02-15 06:45:55 UTC
Jane Shapperd wrote:


i use +5 implants all the time and i pvp in them i don't give a **** if i lose them as long as i train faster than other players

Interesting statement, if I check the killboard of Jane Shapperd ... I see ... many empty pods ;)

I'm my own NPC alt.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#865 - 2015-02-15 10:15:17 UTC
There's the possibility of emergency unplugging of implants under duress.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
D'Kelle
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#866 - 2015-02-15 10:35:41 UTC  |  Edited by: D'Kelle
As I see I the whole purpose of implants and remapping of attributes is about CHOICE, in game Choice, i.e. part of the "fabled sand box" power given to the player to chose, or look at it another way you vote how to train your character in which ever way possible the choice allows within the mechanics. Take away the choice and you reduce the game individuality per player. Its akin to loosing your right to vote in RL so use it or loose it, some are indifferent to choosing, they are sheep, loosing your freedom to choose that's bad either in game or in RL :The ability to move ahead a little bit faster in your personal direction empowers you as an individual depending upon how you game play style is. were we all newbies at one time same as the thousands of players over the last ten years or so.
If you want to see how much effect it has on newbies, then run a proper test allow 50% of any new players from this date forward to have access to the current system and the other 50% cannot remap or install implants over the next 12 months and see who complains the ones allowed or the ones denied. that would be far better than affect the total current player base.
I would put money on it that the ones denied will complain like hell, that they had been disadvantaged. if you don't think that would be the case you have no genuine reason for not trying it.
Rectile
Warped
#867 - 2015-02-15 12:37:58 UTC
Good idea if true and i welcome it
NeodiuM
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#868 - 2015-02-15 14:46:49 UTC
I'm for the removal of attribute enhancing implants and the attribute map.
10+ years on I don't really see why people are going to complain about a slightly accelerated skill queueing.

Honestly.

Cons:
1) Its bad for veterans or industrialists who are heavily invested in the attribute implants. - some form of compensation for them.
2) People who have already done their skill training may complain because it should be hard for others.
3) Peepz will say "Don't make eve easy"

Pro's:
1) Get your mate into the game quicker.
2) New players wont have steam coming out of their ears just trying to sort out these menu's before undocking.
3) Reduced requirement for outside programs to manage your skill queue and assist in optimising it.
4) There is no easy way to put this in a new player tutorial, removal is good - really, how would you do it, if its overly complicated, it will be ignored while more basic game concepts are learned and then forgotten.
5) Less "mandatory" feeling implants to risk loosing, over and over. (I don't mind pvp'ing with learning implants in if i'm stuck in that clone, but when an FC says, lets go whelp this fleet and get a fight, its sad watching half of it drop out because they don't want to loose their pod.) ie. loosing a 40m pod in a 20m frigate.


It's a pain in the ass to work out and not much fun when I decide I want to try something else in eve.
If I already had 100m sp I probably wouldn't care, but I don't, I have 20m sp and I'm only now starting to feel relevant outside of a blob.

Honestly, I love eve and I love the complexity of eve. These implants and the mapping attributes were another thing that I had to get my head around, they wern't fun, but I felt better for understanding them after reading up on it. And because I tend to switch my training around alot I went with a balanced map, I now just understand i'm not mapped as optimally as others. Its a trade off for fun.


TLDR;
Its hard enough trying to get my mates into eve, without having this hurdle / giving them implants to help them / watching them loosing so many implants / watching them give up. The attribute system doesn't make sense anymore.
Jane Shapperd
Quafe Commandos
The Commonwealth.
#869 - 2015-02-15 15:40:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Jane Shapperd
Tipa Riot wrote:
Jane Shapperd wrote:


i use +5 implants all the time and i pvp in them i don't give a **** if i lose them as long as i train faster than other players

Interesting statement, if I check the killboard of Jane Shapperd ... I see ... many empty pods ;)


oh snap somone notices and actully wants to counter my points ;)

when i lose my ship i consider the situation if i am going to lose my pod 100%( bubble , pipe bomb , gate camp smart bombs) i start upluging everysingle implant starting with learning +5s then hardwairing implants as all the 5 of them are cheaper than two +5.

i mentioned in one of my posts i mostly lose my implants by unpluging them not by being poded as i care more about kb rather than my wallet. ( page 36 just under point B)
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#870 - 2015-02-15 16:08:05 UTC
NeodiuM wrote:
I'm for the removal of attribute enhancing implants and the attribute map.
10+ years on I don't really see why people are going to complain about a slightly accelerated skill queueing.

Honestly.

Cons:
1) Its bad for veterans or industrialists who are heavily invested in the attribute implants. - some form of compensation for them.
2) People who have already done their skill training may complain because it should be hard for others.
3) Peepz will say "Don't make eve easy"

Pro's:
1) Get your mate into the game quicker.
2) New players wont have steam coming out of their ears just trying to sort out these menu's before undocking.
3) Reduced requirement for outside programs to manage your skill queue and assist in optimising it.
4) There is no easy way to put this in a new player tutorial, removal is good - really, how would you do it, if its overly complicated, it will be ignored while more basic game concepts are learned and then forgotten.
5) Less "mandatory" feeling implants to risk loosing, over and over. (I don't mind pvp'ing with learning implants in if i'm stuck in that clone, but when an FC says, lets go whelp this fleet and get a fight, its sad watching half of it drop out because they don't want to loose their pod.) ie. loosing a 40m pod in a 20m frigate.


It's a pain in the ass to work out and not much fun when I decide I want to try something else in eve.
If I already had 100m sp I probably wouldn't care, but I don't, I have 20m sp and I'm only now starting to feel relevant outside of a blob.

Honestly, I love eve and I love the complexity of eve. These implants and the mapping attributes were another thing that I had to get my head around, they wern't fun, but I felt better for understanding them after reading up on it. And because I tend to switch my training around alot I went with a balanced map, I now just understand i'm not mapped as optimally as others. Its a trade off for fun.


TLDR;
Its hard enough trying to get my mates into eve, without having this hurdle / giving them implants to help them / watching them loosing so many implants / watching them give up. The attribute system doesn't make sense anymore.




Implants aren't needed to play the game.

They are a luxury...not a necessity.

They are something a player makes the choice to spend their isk on knowing that they can be podded and have to replace them.

If you cannot afford to lose your implants and choose to be risk averse that is your choice.
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#871 - 2015-02-15 17:05:28 UTC
There are a lot of good points here. I'm not sure the attribute mapping system adds anything of value to the game for me.

While we're on the subject of things that screw new players... how about 'dem NPC standings? How many new players get locked out of parts of empire space for doing too many missions that tank their standing? That's the issue we should address first here.
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#872 - 2015-02-15 17:42:59 UTC
Noxisia Arkana wrote:
There are a lot of good points here. I'm not sure the attribute mapping system adds anything of value to the game for me.

While we're on the subject of things that screw new players... how about 'dem NPC standings? How many new players get locked out of parts of empire space for doing too many missions that tank their standing? That's the issue we should address first here.



PvP doesn't add anything of value to me. Lets get rid of it.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#873 - 2015-02-15 18:13:48 UTC
NeodiuM wrote:
TLDR;
Its hard enough trying to get my mates into eve, without having this hurdle / giving them implants to help them / watching them loosing so many implants / watching them give up. The attribute system doesn't make sense anymore.


OR you could teach them about how SP isn't that important and how EVE is about risk, planning and reward. But I guess that's just way too difficult, right.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#874 - 2015-02-15 18:15:22 UTC
Noxisia Arkana wrote:
There are a lot of good points here. I'm not sure the attribute mapping system adds anything of value to the game for me.

While we're on the subject of things that screw new players... how about 'dem NPC standings? How many new players get locked out of parts of empire space for doing too many missions that tank their standing? That's the issue we should address first here.


It's a simple case of reading forums, asking questions, noticing your standings are dropping and... putting in some brain effort.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#875 - 2015-02-15 18:53:12 UTC
Noxisia Arkana wrote:
There are a lot of good points here. I'm not sure the attribute mapping system adds anything of value to the game for me.

While we're on the subject of things that screw new players... how about 'dem NPC standings? How many new players get locked out of parts of empire space for doing too many missions that tank their standing? That's the issue we should address first here.



there are ways to fix that once you have messed up. the easiest being a skill to train which only takes 6 days from 0lv-5lv and can be trained almost at the start of the game.

The equation:
e=(10-(s))*(d*.04)+(s)
where:
s=Standing
d=Diplomacy level
e=Effective standing

at Diplomacy lv 5 you can have -8.7 standings and still run around in that factions space without them bothering you. As -10 is the lowest you can do and requires alot of work to get it there. once they are there I doubt they are newbies anymore
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#876 - 2015-02-15 22:17:40 UTC
Syn Shi wrote:
Noxisia Arkana wrote:
There are a lot of good points here. I'm not sure the attribute mapping system adds anything of value to the game for me.

While we're on the subject of things that screw new players... how about 'dem NPC standings? How many new players get locked out of parts of empire space for doing too many missions that tank their standing? That's the issue we should address first here.



PvP doesn't add anything of value to me. Lets get rid of it.

My suggestion for fixing faction standings is a tag system similar to clone tags for security status. F&I

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
Insidious.
#877 - 2015-02-15 23:40:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
CCP Darwin wrote:
Phoenix Czech wrote:
Two things I do not like on this:
1) It will probably lead to slow skilling. Skilling is already slow enough even with +5 implants and max. remap.
2) Actual atribute system force me to thing about skilling. Make plans for sklil que and remaps. It force me to use my brain. Removing this mechanic simply move eve closer to stupid arcade game types. If I would like play games where pushing two buttons is maximum possible, I would play another game (Pac Man for example).


1) is an assumption that really doesn't have a basis.

2) Regardless of skill training speed, there are plenty of difficult choices to make in a system where you can only train one (out of hundreds) of skills at once, and they usually take days, or longer.

A system that required you to solve a math problem before adding a skill to your skill queue would also force you to use your brain while choosing skills, but it would be a ridiculous gameplay roadblock. Tests of knowledge or skill that have no relevance to the rest of the game aren't inherently valuable solely because they add difficulty.

Finally, I'd advise that if you're trying to change the mind of the development team, you're best off arguing your case rather than dismissing arguments on the other side of the question as "stupid."


Surely all XP systems can be gamed by using one's brain. If you had to grind for XP surely there would be a mathematically optimal solution to reduce travel time and do the quests or killing the right mobs (do mobs x levels above you, etc). It's the equivalent of going to another MMO and ask the quest givers to all be placed at equidistant towns to be done one-by-one with no variation so everyone can skill at the same rate in case someone works it out and has an unfair advantage. I mean the bar for skilling in EVE is already pretty low, you don't even have to log in to win XP.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#878 - 2015-02-15 23:54:30 UTC
Syn Shi wrote:

Implants aren't needed to play the game.

They are a luxury...not a necessity.

They are something a player makes the choice to spend their isk on knowing that they can be podded and have to replace them.

If you cannot afford to lose your implants and choose to be risk averse that is your choice.


Time WAAAAARP!!

I could pull up those exact words posted about learning skills made by people like you to justify keeping them in the game.

How did that work out?

Mr Epeen Cool
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
Insidious.
#879 - 2015-02-15 23:56:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
While we are debating this change to learning implants can we have some data on the last clone change that was meant to "get people pvp'ing". Something like say

- how many clones in the top 20% of SP had more ship deaths/kills after the removal of clone costs, and by how much more
- how many clones in the top 20% of SP without no little or no ship deaths/kills whatsoever had more after the change
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#880 - 2015-02-15 23:59:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
sorta moot, considering the med clone cost was removed to allow sleepers and drifters to pod us. So not only was it purely an RP/ lore based change, it's also too soon for those metrics to show anything. There's too much habit and ingrained behavior for the recent med clone change to have affected much, I think.

the low end of the top 20% of SP characters is lower than you think. Perhaps you meant to say clones with more than x amount of SP, say, 200 mil + (which, by the way, according to eveboard is only 200 characters).

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)