EVE General Discussion

Are you telling me you actually truly believe people's stated reasonings and motivations for why they want changes that will save them effort, risk and cost?

seriously guys cut this useless crap and grow up

My agenda is very simple and obvious. I like the old EVE where your choices can explode in your face, because it's a form of Darwinism which is what EVE (to me) is and should be. That doesn't mean I'm automatically against any sort of change but if that change consists of a loss of choices and consequences people better have some damn good arguments before they'll convince me.

At this point I feel like Gregor Parud is the only one lobbying for reasons other than the ones he stated. He probably runs the implant market or owns a bunch of high SP Characters he doesn't want 'devalued'

Either way, I still like the idea where we just change attributes to do non-skill related things.

• We can make them as desirable as current implants, but not much more or not much less as to keep the market impact low.
• Since learning implants aren't removed, and will still be used, the 'risk' that everyone is so concerned about won't decrease.
• Learning implants actually affect game play significantly
• Minimal recoding! Learning implants still exist, remaps still exist, just change what attributes do.

Here are my suggestions:

Intelligence: +0.5% power grid and cpu per level OR +0.5% shield, armor, and hull per level.

Memory: -0.5% manufacturing and research time per level

Charisma: -0.5% market order cost (like broker relations) and 0.5% mission reward per level

Willpower: Not sure yet. Maybe a tracking/explosion 'to hit' thing? Or spaceship command related. Agility? Or maybe even leadership related (On grid booster stuff??)

Perception: +0.5% turret and launcher damage per level

I'm not sure if I've responded in this thread already or not so I'll state my view here concisely.

I'm fine with remaps/attributes/implants as they are. I believe they are balanced and provide good risk/reward choices.

For those that say new players often mess up the remaps I say this: The NPC experience should make very clear how remaps work, indeed there should be an entire tutorial on it if required. A new player is most often best with a balanced map of skills for the first month or so anyone and also have two free remaps in case they screw up royally with the first remap (One error isn't a surprise early on in Eve, two errors are your own fault).

Attributes are not hard to understand in my opinion, a higher attribute in the primary or secondary slot on a skill will give a better training time. It is striaght forward and simple to understand.

Implants are perfectly fine and provide the risk of losing isk compared to the reward gained for using the implant. If a player complains that they don't undock due to the implant costs they a) bought the wrong implants as they can't afford to lose them and b) Would simply complain about the next cost in line stoppiing them undocking if implants were removed. Risk aversion is a player mindset not the result of a game mechanic.

Removing the current system will punish those who make the effort to learn the system and gain the rewards and those willing to risk high cost implants. Some say this is pay to win but what is using tech II or tech II ships and faction/officer mods if not paying for advantage?

It seems that some players are either requesting a significant increase in complexity of the learning mechanics, or are aggrieved that their experience and effort investing in the system will somehow lead to a degraded advantage.

Whilst It is a common thread that any mechanic, no matter, how bad, is defended with extreme vehemence, no matter how bad, annoying, or just insane, one really needs to look at what BENEFIT the said mechanic brings to the overall player experience.

The Usual buzz Phrases, usually rolled out at this time, just make the posts hilariously embarrassing. And is hardly the way to convince either the Dev team or those who are reading the thread.

In Short, needless complexity, is not a desireable goal or achievement, meaningful complexity however can have value, but that value needs to be carefully weighed against the competing benefits of simplicity.

The current skill system is heavily biased towards complexity. Balancing it so the value exceeds the sheer "jumping through hoops" parts of the mechanism, is a desireable goal.

Making the Skill training system, a clear and an enjoyable experience should be a desireable goal, this is something we should all be behind, and we should be pleased that CCP are looking to make it better.

However those who are seeking the widely despised and reviled historic experience of learning skills and are heartbroken by their loss will no doubt disagree.

However loud, and disagreeable, they are in a small - very small minority.

Jesus, really, stop touching things which are working.

If you cant afford it, dont fly it and stop bitching around.

Or are we going to have an option to join the guild soon?

The main problem I see in the whole leveling system is the remaps/lack of in-game support for skill planning. That you can remap is great and all, but the once-a-year limitation is rather outrageous with no in-game tools to help you plan out what you're doing. I could get on board with the idea of removing remaps entirely, giving everyone flat attributes, and using implants to boost it from there. This is because the game has interesting ideas for how to build a meaningful character but lacks the tools/follow-through/execution to see those ideas through, leaving them half-done at best and therefore need to be dismissed entirely (TL;DR explanation of that below).

As it stands right now, remaps themselves are the problem. Once a year seems beyond reasonable to me. Did I made it work? Yes. But I still see a problem with it. When I started this game, I didn't even get into remaps or learning implants for months. I just trained skills that I wanted to, never felt like I was missing out on anything. When I learned a bit more about EVE I decided to do a general remap, took out Charisma and distributed it to the others and just continued training a wide variety of skills (mostly starter skills and pre-req stuff). I didn't even remap immediately once that year expired, I did it months afterwards.

And yes, while I brought Charisma down to it's lowest, that never stopped me from putting a few social skills to level 4. And one of them to level 5. At no point did I feel cheated or that the system didn't work. For the long run, that remap, including training off-optimal skills, was still working out better for me than no remap because the diversion was insignificant in that year's time.

I was never inhibited from doing anything, I never felt left out or left behind.

I might have done things a little differently if I had access to EVEMON early on, but you know how this game is "trust nobody...but oh hey there's this awesome unregulated third-party app and you just have to give it your API info and...", well that explains my reluctance and probably others' as well.

I think that's the biggest problem here. The two programs I use, EFT and EVEMON, are dang-near necessary to be able to function in EVE. Moreso EFT than EVEMON, to be honest, EVEMON is better for those who care to do long-term planning and are OCD about maxing stuff out...which until this thread came along I would have guessed was a small minority...but damn a lot of people apparently are really into that maxing out stuff.

Anyway, I think this game's biggest problems is that it (pretty much) requires two third-party programs to function. That is absolutely inexcusable. I see there's a thread about hopefully bettering the fitting experience in EVE, but that's about 11 years too late. Putting ships together is a core function of this game, and you shouldn't need third-party support to help you figure out fits. EVEMON I'm a bit more lenient on, but if you're going to pigeonhole people into an attribute set for a year, you should already have a program in place that shows them how best to optimize their training like EVEMON does. 11 years and still waiting for in-game support for that.

If this game didn't have this reputation about "trust nobody but these third-party programs are necessary - use them now", then maybe this wouldn't be the big issue that it apparently is. New players shouldn't be required to use third party apps to make your game work. If this game had in-game training planning and support, I'd say keep the year remaps and everything is fine. But as it stands, I'd say I'd rather see remaps cut back severely. Maybe three months. But where and why do we draw that line? It's arbitrary no matter what, even at a year, so who is to say what is right there?

Due to lack of in-game support for EVE training plans, I'd rather see attribute points flattened for everyone, no remaps, with implants to boost what you need. When EVE gets around to proper in-game support for training plans, we can re-institute attribute points. Until then, EVE doesn't have the proper in-game tools to support its own ideas, so let's be rid of it.

Yes we all understand this. The comment that we should be nice opened this door, now, didn't it.

I.... just want to say that I've climbed over the 50 million SP core skills hump seven times. Not my problem anymore.