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Latest CSM notes : Rumours of attribute points/implants being removed.

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Anthar Thebess
#721 - 2015-02-13 13:38:06 UTC
Don't mix RL and EVE.
Eve is game , game that should give pleasure or challenge.
Waiting ages for something that you need now can be only justified by ability to do something already.

New players needs lot of time before they will be able to do something.

From my perspective , new players should start with specific builds that could offer them to be :
- warrior ( racial frigate and guns V)
- industrialist (same for industry )
- miner ( barge from the beginning)

For new people ability to fly tech 2 frigate 5 days earlier is very important.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Leannor
State War Academy
Caldari State
#722 - 2015-02-13 13:40:52 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Don't mix RL and EVE.
Eve is game , game that should give pleasure or challenge.
Waiting ages for something that you need now can be only justified by ability to do something already.

New players needs lot of time before they will be able to do something.

From my perspective , new players should start with specific builds that could offer them to be :
- warrior ( racial frigate and guns V)
- industrialist (same for industry )
- miner ( barge from the beginning)

For new people ability to fly tech 2 frigate 5 days earlier is very important.


the 'time savings' provided by implants is not massive ... it's a tiny proportion.

And, real life attitudes often find their way into a virtual reality - wether genuine or contrived - it's part of the reason why it's a virtual reality. ;)

"Lykouleon wrote:

STOP TOUCHING ICONIC SHIP PARTS"
CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#723 - 2015-02-13 16:59:25 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Darwin
Leannor wrote:
the 'time savings' provided by implants is not massive ... it's a tiny proportion.


Implants offer about a third of the benefit of remaps. The difference between +5 implants and no implants will still typically cut a month off a year of training. I wouldn't call a little under 10% a "tiny" proportion, but it's not overwhelming either.

Regarding the economic and LP implications of the idea of removing learning implants, just wanted to reinforce that this is a very significant concern that's known to the developers on the team and that they wouldn't do it without satisfying themselves that they have a solid answer for that concern.

Finally, thanks to everyone who's posting here for carrying on a substantive and constructive discussion about the idea. That kind of tone makes it a lot easier for game designers to understand and think about everyone's arguments either way, and we appreciate the thought and time everyone's brought to this.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins
Serene Repose
#724 - 2015-02-13 17:38:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Serene Repose
Personally, I think +5s and 10%s offered by devs in all games...add two to your strength, add 1.8 to your endurance...is BS. Always has been. Always will be. "Not overwhelming..." Yeah, not significant, and certainly not worth what it costs to get it. I've always wondered how stupid devs think players are, then I see scads of epeeners turn it into a religious precept:

"Thou must have this or thou is fail."

Then, cry about the implant losses. Add them to gankers loot so they can swell up with a fascinating sensation of diabolical accomplishment. Even the titillation factor is miniscule - but for the other tenet:

"Simple pleasures for simple minds."

Oh yes, but if you've got the +4 implant, and he's got the +5 you're guaranteed to lose, regardless of all your training, experience, support, skills...yeah, the intellect meter is riding high with this one. +5 Whatta boost. Oh yeah. It's higher than without it.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Cool

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#725 - 2015-02-13 17:39:19 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Don't mix RL and EVE.
Eve is game , game that should give pleasure or challenge.
Waiting ages for something that you need now can be only justified by ability to do something already.

New players needs lot of time before they will be able to do something.

From my perspective , new players should start with specific builds that could offer them to be :
- warrior ( racial frigate and guns V)
- industrialist (same for industry )
- miner ( barge from the beginning)

For new people ability to fly tech 2 frigate 5 days earlier is very important.


This is a genus idea.

You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
Pok Nibin
Doomheim
#726 - 2015-02-13 17:45:00 UTC
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Don't mix RL and EVE.
Eve is game , game that should give pleasure or challenge.
Waiting ages for something that you need now can be only justified by ability to do something already.

New players needs lot of time before they will be able to do something.

From my perspective , new players should start with specific builds that could offer them to be :
- warrior ( racial frigate and guns V)
- industrialist (same for industry )
- miner ( barge from the beginning)

For new people ability to fly tech 2 frigate 5 days earlier is very important.


This is a genus idea.
Did we redefine "genius"? Send me an update. I missed that memo.

The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#727 - 2015-02-13 17:46:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Rift
CCP Darwin wrote:
Leannor wrote:
the 'time savings' provided by implants is not massive ... it's a tiny proportion.


Implants offer about a third of the benefit of remaps. The difference between +5 implants and no implants will still typically cut a month off a year of training. I wouldn't call a little under 10% a "tiny" proportion, but it's not overwhelming either.

Regarding the economic and LP implications of the idea of removing learning implants, just wanted to reinforce that this is a very significant concern that's known to the developers on the team and that they wouldn't do it without satisfying themselves that they have a solid answer for that concern.

Finally, thanks to everyone who's posting here for carrying on a substantive and constructive discussion about the idea. That kind of tone makes it a lot easier for game designers to understand and think about everyone's arguments either way, and we appreciate the thought and time everyone's brought to this.



Whats the difference between +3's and +5's and then include the training time to get cybernetics that is required for +5's from lv4-5
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#728 - 2015-02-13 17:50:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
Lets just accept that 0.0 CSM shills and management get their way anyway and stop bothering & caring. And that all pretence of "discussion" is just that: pretence.
Serene Repose
#729 - 2015-02-13 17:55:57 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Lets just accept that 0.0 CSM shills and management get their way anyway and stop bothering & caring. And that all pretence of "discussion" is just that: pretence.
Now you're talkin'.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Pok Nibin
Doomheim
#730 - 2015-02-13 18:14:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Pok Nibin
There's this good movie, futuristic. Code 64. Rather than implants to boost abilities, these guys use a virus. Only one will work at a time, but, you get abilities way beyond your norm for a limited time.

See the idea here? Make implants active, like active ship modules. Let them significantly boost AN attribute for a limited time. Doesn't matter which, charm, aim, diplomacy, warpdrive. Make them task specific and exclusive. You can load the whole set, but run one at a time for say.... 24-hours.

AND, what'd be different than the virus is you can turn them off, and turn on another one. You won't have to wait for the virus to dissipate. Use them like switches.

Where EVE gets in trouble is these attributes in gaming tradition, charm/intelligence/wisdom, the standard rack, are handled through leveling - which we do not have. We could increase the attributes through study - which we do not do, rather than an annual shot at the attributes sliders...you get the idea.

EVE is using a very convoluted system to try to handle this feature. No matter how they try to implement this it'll always come out funky in some way or another. Like repairing bad plumbing, fix one leak, another appears - endlessly.

The urge is to get rid of the plumbing entirely, rather than be bothered by the reapproach and redesign.
Not very bright, really.

Just a thought. I'm not begging to alter your game, so don't react like someone is trying to steal your bleggy.

The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.
Memphis Baas
#731 - 2015-02-13 18:18:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
Another idea could be:

- remove attributes and remaps, give everyone a flat training speed

- change attribute implants to just be implants that give a bonus to training speed

- have ships give training speed bonus to the skills that are listed in their "recommended certificates" page when UNDOCKED and FLYING said ships, call it "hands-on training."

This way you can either sit in station and rely on your +5 implants, or undock and rely on your ship to give you equivalent training speed bonus as you fly it, or combine the two for even faster training but if you lose the implants that's risk vs. reward.
Vyl Vit
#732 - 2015-02-13 18:25:27 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Lets just accept that 0.0 CSM shills and management get their way anyway and stop bothering & caring. And that all pretence of "discussion" is just that: pretence.
Judging by CSM participation on this forum of late, I'd vote for this before I'd vote for a CSM.

Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#733 - 2015-02-13 18:28:26 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
Another idea could be:

- remove attributes and remaps, give everyone a flat training speed

- change attribute implants to just be implants that give a bonus to training speed

- have ships give training speed bonus to the skills that are listed in their "recommended certificates" page when UNDOCKED and FLYING said ships, call it "hands-on training."

This way you can either sit in station and rely on your +5 implants, or undock and rely on your ship to give you equivalent training speed bonus as you fly it, or combine the two for even faster training but if you lose the implants that's risk vs. reward.



cloak + sit in dead space
Celestia Via
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#734 - 2015-02-13 18:33:24 UTC
Even though I agree that the attribute system needs work and that, as is made obvious by my previous posts, the learning implants are indeed useless and even reason for some not to risk PVP, I disagree with removing attributes entirely.

Even if attributes are not a meaningful mechanic they do have one important role which noone seems to have brought up.
(unless I missed it somehow, in which case im sorry)

They represent character investment. Dont forget, EvE is not all about numbers and calculations, its an RPG. With characters.
Character attributes and the ability to alter them (remaps) are the main thing that makes your character feel abit different and unique from others. If we abolish them, all thats left to differentiate one toon from another is the mugshot.

EvE is an impersonal game as it is, since you cant actually see the character interact with anything else than the couch in officers quarters.

Taking away even the little things that make your Brutor different from a Civire would make the characters even more impersonal and harder to relate to, i.e. "be proud of". For that matter, we could just as well be spaceships rather than people.

In my opinion EvE characters need more human - relatable (is that even a word??) traits, taking away the few already there would be a mistake.







"We marched for days and nights, under sun, in the rain. Our minds and bodies ached for rest, but in our hearts there was nothing but the fight."
Dominique Vasilkovsky
#735 - 2015-02-13 18:50:19 UTC
Celestia Via wrote:
Even though I agree that the attribute system needs work and that, as is made obvious by my previous posts, the learning implants are indeed useless and even reason for some not to risk PVP, I disagree with removing attributes entirely.

Even if attributes are not a meaningful mechanic they do have one important role which noone seems to have brought up.
(unless I missed it somehow, in which case im sorry)

They represent character investment. Dont forget, EvE is not all about numbers and calculations, its an RPG. With characters.
Character attributes and the ability to alter them (remaps) are the main thing that makes your character feel abit different and unique from others. If we abolish them, all thats left to differentiate one toon from another is the mugshot.

EvE is an impersonal game as it is, since you cant actually see the character interact with anything else than the couch in officers quarters.

Taking away even the little things that make your Brutor different from a Civire would make the characters even more impersonal and harder to relate to, i.e. "be proud of". For that matter, we could just as well be spaceships rather than people.

In my opinion EvE characters need more human - relatable (is that even a word??) traits, taking away the few already there would be a mistake.

Fine leave the attributes in but decouple them from the learning speed.
Celestia Via
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#736 - 2015-02-13 18:58:29 UTC
Dominique Vasilkovsky wrote:

Fine leave the attributes in but decouple them from the learning speed.


okay, but they have to mean something ingame.

I, the average player, "need" to imagine my high strength punching your high intelligence in the face :P
unless there is actually any way of that happening, a high *whatever* character is meaningless.

any suggestions?

"We marched for days and nights, under sun, in the rain. Our minds and bodies ached for rest, but in our hearts there was nothing but the fight."
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#737 - 2015-02-13 19:00:29 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Don't mix RL and EVE.
Eve is game , game that should give pleasure or challenge.
Waiting ages for something that you need now can be only justified by ability to do something already.

New players needs lot of time before they will be able to do something.

From my perspective , new players should start with specific builds that could offer them to be :
- warrior ( racial frigate and guns V)
- industrialist (same for industry )
- miner ( barge from the beginning)

For new people ability to lose expensive tech 2 frigates 5 days earlier is very important.

/fixed

In EVE "I want it all and I want it now" often ends in "I lost it all...".

Remove standings and insurance.
Ace Northmen
Sanctuary Reapers Holdings
#738 - 2015-02-13 19:35:14 UTC
I think what people fails to understand learning implants are ment to have an edge on others in training .

it gives a feeling that you are better than someone else ,who started at the same time as you, skill point wise .

removing them will beat the whole concept of i wanna risk more in order to get more advanced ships faster.
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#739 - 2015-02-13 19:36:12 UTC
Celestia Via wrote:
Even though I agree that the attribute system needs work and that, as is made obvious by my previous posts, the learning implants are indeed useless and even reason for some not to risk PVP, I disagree with removing attributes entirely.

Even if attributes are not a meaningful mechanic they do have one important role which noone seems to have brought up.
(unless I missed it somehow, in which case im sorry)

They represent character investment. Dont forget, EvE is not all about numbers and calculations, its an RPG. With characters.
Character attributes and the ability to alter them (remaps) are the main thing that makes your character feel abit different and unique from others. If we abolish them, all thats left to differentiate one toon from another is the mugshot.

EvE is an impersonal game as it is, since you cant actually see the character interact with anything else than the couch in officers quarters.

Taking away even the little things that make your Brutor different from a Civire would make the characters even more impersonal and harder to relate to, i.e. "be proud of". For that matter, we could just as well be spaceships rather than people.

In my opinion EvE characters need more human - relatable (is that even a word??) traits, taking away the few already there would be a mistake.









Can you ever think of a situation where your stats actually had an effect on your roleplay in EVE?

Like, say you remap all your int into cha... do you all of a sudden start auto piloting billions of isk worth of assets through known gatecamps planning on charming any hostiles?

Character sheets have no impact on EVE as an "RPG" as you are presenting it... and they shouldn't. Your *actions* in game are your roleplay, and only your actions distinguish your character. If you care about RP, how you play should reflect that regardless of your stats.

Is your Civire character a Caldari Loyalist? Probably not consistent RP to be running missions for Fed Navy LP. That's impactful to your play in a way that a Civire racial stat bonus to Wilpower vs Brutor +1 to Strengh probably never will be.

EVE doesn't need game mechanics to make characters have "more human - relatable traits." That's your job as a human who plays EVE: to portray your own character in the sandbox.
Jane Shapperd
Quafe Commandos
The Commonwealth.
#740 - 2015-02-13 20:07:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Jane Shapperd
Memphis Baas wrote:
Another idea could be:

- remove attributes and remaps, give everyone a flat training speed


+ 1 i've already suggested the very same thing in my earlier post , i am just gonna quote what i wrote

Jane Shapperd wrote:

A good solution would be scrap the whole re. map thing and give all characters same attributes. but keep learning implants as they are( with minor editing in slots see the end of the post ) . That way people who wants to train faster could risk more , and for those who doesn't want to risk they have jump clone choice or not injecting implants at all

Memphis Baas wrote:

- change attribute implants to just be implants that give a bonus to training speed

I have already posted why it was bad idea

Jane Shapperd wrote:

The problems with this having 1 implants that effect training all skills are

1- They could be more costly than having two +5 or whatever implants you use. As the current system requires you to have 2 training implants to get the max SP/hour .


2 - It removes the punishment for training some skill out with attributes other than the 2 implants u are using .


Memphis Baas wrote:

- have ships give training speed bonus to the skills that are listed in their "recommended certificates" page when UNDOCKED and FLYING said ships, call it "hands-on training."


This way you can either sit in station and rely on your +5 implants, or undock and rely on your ship to give you equivalent training speed bonus as you fly it, or combine the two for even faster training but if you lose the implants that's risk vs. reward.


as Lady Rift said in earlier post clock + deep dead space afking
( couldn't quote it because i have so many quotesWhat?)

Again the thing with implants is concept of having an edge on other pilots , by training faster them . ( risk vs reward)
The difference is good while being the same as any other player is bad
The difference can be achieved by allowing pilots to pick only 2 training implants be it +1 or +5 doesn't matter
also buy giving them choice to not buy implants if they want to .

I think we all agree remap is bad and should be scraped or reworked
so my suggestion is that all characters have the same attributes

also it would be move viable to remove the whole training learning attributes from implants that uses slot 1 to 5 ( including pirate faction implants )

Add new slots (11 and 12 ) these slots for training implants ( since it takes only 2 implants to effect a speed of training a skill) and if they are filled with learning implants you get a bonus in space based on the value the implant give to your attribute . ( i don't like the bonus idea but hey many of the posts bitches about that their learning implant doesn't effect their ships) so at least it will be worth while to use learning implants while flying in space .

that for those who say my pvp clone worth more than my learning could use the pvp clone and learning at the same time.
aka pirate faction set in 1-6 , Hardwiring 7-10 and learning 11-12