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If we lose the attribute system...
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Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1 - 2015-02-10 17:25:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
So basically there's been rumour of training attributes being modified/removed from the game and having a flat SP rate no matter what you want to train...I followed up with a possible possible further changes based upon this happening...


Firstly I would guess that this change would also mean that attribute implants are removed as well. These encourage risk-averse gameplay and are expensive for newbros. This will mean that you your choice is restricted into whether to pimp your clone or not based on current shiptype and activity rather than based around saving a week of training next October. So...IF THIS HAPPENS:

I propose slower align times for pods...

- In nullsec: it's pretty much unchanged, warp bubbles will still result in a dead clone, fights without bubbling will be more risky for your clone but you're only going to lose the skill hardwirings/pirate implants.

- In lowsec: This means that players have a meaningful choice on whether to pod every single person they meet with a 100% chance of catching pods if suitable ships are in fleet - but - a significantly reduced chance of actually killing a pimped clone as players adapt to the greater risk of flying around in a fragile egg after losing a fight. Instead of just spam clicking every single pod they meet and killing the few that didn't pre-align or got murdered by lag, they can choose to take the Security hit or let them on their way whilst they loot their wreck.

- In highsec: Goodbye -10s flying around in pods although 2s align intys, cloakies and leopards will of course remain as valid transit options for the criminal populations. Hello more bounty hunters in interceptors popping flashy pods without praying for packetloss for their victim - 'hyperdunking' will now be counterable by instalock frigs and dessies on grid...which should result in more dead frigs and dessies (and their respective clones) - also pirates might think twice before podding after a gank if they don't want to buy all those security tags again...or not.

- Overall: sec status change will still be applicable, so nasty nasty piwates will still need tags but will be open season for the 'good' inhabitants to send back to a clone vat if they're flying around in populated areas with bad sec status in just a pod.

- Pirate implants would have to have different bonuses applied between high/mid/low-grade (or be limited down to just one variety)

- Everyone except for station-bound clones with +5s will train faster because of the attribute changes - there will be no 'I can't be bothered to jumpclone today just to pvp without my learning implants (or with lower level ones)'

- Prealigning your ship might get your pod offgrid safely but you're still incredibly vulnerable until you get to a station for an extra layer of bubble wrap.



Thoughts, ideas, comments welcome :)

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2015-02-10 18:22:04 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
So basically there's been rumour of training attributes being modified/removed from the game and having a flat SP rate no matter what you want to train...I followed up with a possible possible further changes based upon this happening...


Firstly I would guess that this change would also mean that attribute implants are removed as well. These encourage risk-averse gameplay and are expensive for newbros. This will mean that you your choice is restricted into whether to pimp your clone or not based on current shiptype and activity rather than based around saving a week of training next October. So...IF THIS HAPPENS:

I propose slower align times for pods...

- In nullsec: it's pretty much unchanged, warp bubbles will still result in a dead clone, fights without bubbling will be more risky for your clone but you're only going to lose the skill hardwirings/pirate implants.

- In lowsec: This means that players have a meaningful choice on whether to pod every single person they meet with a 100% chance of catching pods if suitable ships are in fleet - but - a significantly reduced chance of actually killing a pimped clone as players adapt to the greater risk of flying around in a fragile egg after losing a fight. Instead of just spam clicking every single pod they meet and killing the few that didn't pre-align or got murdered by lag, they can choose to take the Security hit or let them on their way whilst they loot their wreck.

- In highsec: Goodbye -10s flying around in pods although 2s align intys, cloakies and leopards will of course remain as valid transit options for the criminal populations. Hello more bounty hunters in interceptors popping flashy pods without praying for packetloss for their victim - 'hyperdunking' will now be counterable by instalock frigs and dessies on grid...which should result in more dead frigs and dessies (and their respective clones) - also pirates might think twice before podding after a gank if they don't want to buy all those security tags again...or not.

- Overall: sec status change will still be applicable, so nasty nasty piwates will still need tags but will be open season for the 'good' inhabitants to send back to a clone vat if they're flying around in populated areas with bad sec status in just a pod.

- Pirate implants would have to have different bonuses applied between high/mid/low-grade (or be limited down to just one variety)

- Everyone except for station-bound clones with +5s will train faster because of the attribute changes - there will be no 'I can't be bothered to jumpclone today just to pvp without my learning implants (or with lower level ones)'

- Prealigning your ship might get your pod offgrid safely but you're still incredibly vulnerable until you get to a station for an extra layer of bubble wrap.



Thoughts, ideas, comments welcome :)

Eli Apol, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Colette Kassia
Kassia Industrial Supply
#3 - 2015-02-10 18:39:41 UTC
It's not their learning implants that people are worried about loosing.
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#4 - 2015-02-10 19:07:09 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:

Eli Apol, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.


Just tell him he's wrong, Mr. Principal.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#5 - 2015-02-10 21:14:07 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Eli Apol, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Many thanks for taking the time out of your day to read it o/

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#6 - 2015-02-10 21:19:48 UTC
Colette Kassia wrote:
It's not their learning implants that people are worried about loosing.

True to a degree - but I'd definitely say that losing training time OR losing learning implants is an issue for keeping some away from pvp. Especially newer characters that are behind in the SP race anyways.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2015-02-10 22:47:31 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
True to a degree - but I'd definitely say that losing training time OR losing learning implants is an issue for keeping some away from pvp. Especially newer characters that are behind in the SP race anyways.

False premise detected.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#8 - 2015-02-10 23:05:12 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Firstly I would guess that this change would also mean that attribute implants are removed as well.


Reworked is by far a more likely solution, either a flat increase in SP/hr or a percentage increase.

Implants are such a huge part of the economy that they couldn't just disappear overnight. Especially when LP farming is so prolific and efficient these days.


Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2015-02-11 01:00:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Eli Apol wrote:
Firstly I would guess that this change would also mean that attribute implants are removed as well.


So...IF THIS HAPPENS:

I propose slower align times for pods...

- In nullsec: it's pretty much unchanged,

- In lowsec: This means that players have a meaningful choice on whether to pod every single person they meet
but - a significantly reduced chance of actually killing a pimped clone

- In highsec: Goodbye -10s flying around in pods although 2s align intys, cloakies and leopards will of course remain as valid transit options for the criminal populations.


- Pirate implants would have to have different bonuses applied between high/mid/low-grade (or be limited down to just one variety)

- Prealigning your ship might get your pod offgrid safely but you're still incredibly vulnerable



Thoughts, ideas, comments welcome :)


Nariya Kentaya wrote:
At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it.

It isn't our fault you can't read. Please refrain from speaking on our behalf if you aren't ready to carry the weight of such a chore.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#10 - 2015-02-11 01:27:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Reworked is by far a more likely solution, either a flat increase in SP/hr or a percentage increase.

Implants are such a huge part of the economy that they couldn't just disappear overnight. Especially when LP farming is so prolific and efficient these days.


It still results in rewarding the older characters that can afford to own (and lose) such implants (and trained cybernetics V already) in extending their SP gaps over newer players and the not so niche set of alts and accounts that sit in a trade hub furiously training away with a set of +5s until they come out fully baked in a couple of years with all their remaps intact.

I'm not talking about removing ALL implants (and such a portion of the market) just the ones that ONLY affect attributes IF the attribute changes that have been speculated upon are implemented.

This might require a rebalance of pirate low/mid/high grades so that the high ones are still as desirable; logically to do this CCP could keep high grade bonuses as they are to avoid power creep at the top end whilst slightly weakening the lesser versions if it seems required. High grades would be less desirable if all the grade levels of pirate implants had the same +0 training modifiers BUT there'd be more of them being destroyed which should keep the price up somewhat anyways.

All the hardwirings would be completely unchanged except you'll see more of them getting destroyed due to the proposed pod align speed changes and thus a general upwards trend in price.



I guess the question is:

Should an actively pilotted pod be uncatchable in high and lowsec (except by inline smartbomb camps) or should it be a valid target for a suitably equipped ship?

At the moment it seems to be down to your geolocation and luck of the draw. (Nb. I write this as someone that's never lost any implants except in Wspace)

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Starrakatt
Empire Assault Corp
Dead Terrorists
#11 - 2015-02-11 02:14:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Starrakatt
Eli wrote:
At the moment it seems to be down to your geolocation and luck of the draw. (Nb. I write this as someone that's never lost any implants except in Wspace)

I catch plenty of pods, and I live in North America. Admiteddly, they are of the kind of PVPers that you could call 'non-consensual'.

IF pod align time was reduced, in small gang pvp virtually every single pod would be caught.
- Nulsec have bubbles and any small/medium gang got a tackler.
- Lowsec got insta-lockers, and an inordinate amount of tackling from FW.
- Except for non-frigate solo players, no pod would escape in hisec.

I think plenty of pods and implants are destroyed already, no need to reduce pod survivability.

AS for your otehr suggestions, pirate implants could just stay the same, minus learning bonus.

Newe sets of hardwires needed for slots 1-5. Maybe moving actual old sets in these slots. Maybe not a bad idea, given people havning been asking for new 6-10 slot implants for a while, like drone ones.

Join Celtic Anarchy!

Sneaky bastard.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#12 - 2015-02-11 11:15:26 UTC
Hehe I guess your 'non-consensual' pod kills were either afk or probably trying to slowboat back to a gate without the protective structure of a ship around them anymore, not exactly canny prey.

Pre-aligning would still be possible so you could get a pod off-grid still with pretty good certainty if you know what you're doing - but then might face a challenge to get back to a dockup to reship into if you're in a stationless system.

F.e. If you were in a dead-end system without a station then your killers could definitely camp the out-gate and most likely pod you as you leave.

And yes this would hopefully increase the number of podkills and so players would have to actually make a choice whether they want to face the additional sec penalties for doing so. Neg 10s and players that don't enter highsec anyways wouldn't care but people that are normally law-abiding-ish might reconsider whether they want to pod for poddings-sake on a regular occurrence or just save it for the guys they think will have nice implants.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Starrakatt
Empire Assault Corp
Dead Terrorists
#13 - 2015-02-11 12:15:47 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Hehe I guess your 'non-consensual' pod kills were either afk or probably trying to slowboat back to a gate without the protective structure of a ship around them anymore, not exactly canny prey.
Nah, non-pvpers are just bad and never learned how to save themselves. PVPers or those with some pvp experience get away more often than not.

Quote:
Pre-aligning would still be possible so you could get a pod off-grid still with pretty good certainty if you know what you're doing - but then might face a challenge to get back to a dockup to reship into if you're in a stationless system.
IF prealigning to save one's pod works, then I wouldn't mind I guess.

Quote:
F.e. If you were in a dead-end system without a station then your killers could definitely camp the out-gate and most likely pod you as you leave.

And yes this would hopefully increase the number of podkills and so players would have to actually make a choice whether they want to face the additional sec penalties for doing so. Neg 10s and players that don't enter highsec anyways wouldn't care but people that are normally law-abiding-ish might reconsider whether they want to pod for poddings-sake on a regular occurrence or just save it for the guys they think will have nice implants.

Smart players will warp around then safe log off in face of the prospect of losing an expensive pod.

Is there such a common thing as non -10 players podding in lowsec? The sec status hit is tremendous comparatively speaking, not counting killrights.

Join Celtic Anarchy!

Sneaky bastard.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#14 - 2015-02-11 12:39:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
TBH the prealigning thing is something I'm not 100% sure on and would be open to suggestion... I'm averse to having completely unkillable pods - but there should still be an element of skill involved.

I guess even with a safe log off, they'd still need to log on at some point in the future to get to safety (or have an alt fly a ship to them).

If it was someone sufficiently noteworthy to have drawn attention to their pod perhaps with a nice big bounty reward, then traps could be laid, mistakes could be made :)


I usually pew in nullsec/WH so can't comment on -10 status' for lowsec inhabitants

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager